Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Speakers => Topic started by: Grainger49 on December 04, 2013, 09:02:03 AM
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I've had my (2) Dungeness subs for about a month. Sadly I haven't listened as much as I wanted to.
Today I got off my ass and tried some suggestions Clark had made.
This is where I started:
My fat feet and my system. The mess of cables is acceptable to me:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg7%2FGrainger49%2FOrca%2520Dungeness%2FIMG_1337_zpsfcf9326c.jpg&hash=adc4c2e99ab83064fbdcad2f41a01c1ac049bce5)
So this is where I started. I thought it was the "obvious" position:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg7%2FGrainger49%2FOrca%2520Dungeness%2FDSC02810_zps9dbbe420.jpg&hash=5bc57923ad55cdbc26f2f11d01c20956e70bb317)
This is the next step suggested by Clark. It made a difference. But it might be a little discontinuous:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg7%2FGrainger49%2FOrca%2520Dungeness%2FDSC02812_zps58e38fe3.jpg&hash=e9590a37a275df67ff5091ae43a8ba3df0a9c0dc)
There is "blue tack" between the Orcas and the stands, nothing but the hand towel between the stand and Dungeness Sub. The Dungeness is sitting on the carpet.
This improved the bass but brought about some discontinuity... I think! Chicago's first album sounded seamless. There are all sorts of bass runs on that album.
Please, other Orca Dungeness owners post!
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Are the Dungeness subs more directional than the last generation of subs? I have a single Orca sub and have generally used in off to one side of my desktop system.
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I can't answer that. I have only listened to the Dungeness subs and only with them forward facing.
Maybe that is a question better asked in the Ultra-Fi Stickey? Clark or Molly can compare them.
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Grainger,
We prefer the subs to be on the floor beside the stands, also resting on the floor, usually on the inside rather than the outside of the arrangement, but outside works too.
Could the discontinuity have something to do with the height of the Orcas being different than normal?
The new subwoofers are indeed less directional in placement, but Clark would have to tell you why.
-Molly
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Something that you have to bear in mind is that there are two different things going on that may work together or agin' each other. One is the relative position of the sub to the Orca, which will have an effect upon the time alignment and phase at the crossover point. But the other thing to bear in mind is that the sub works down at a range where the room dimensions have a huge effect upon frequency response. So you should use Clark and Molly's guidelines to start but you may to fine tune in your own room by moving the subs around a bit if you note any humps or suckouts in the bass. When I have worked with Bob Hodas setting up a room the subs are the last thing that gets positioned, and they are positioned by measuring, moving a little, measuring again, until the smoothest response is found. It's not always a symmetrical setup.
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Molly,
I had to laugh at myself. Clark said put the subs on the floor. You know how literally engineers can take things sometimes.
I had moved one of my amps to make space for the Dungeness subs next to the stands. Then ended putting them under the Orcas.
Yes, the Orcas are higher than normal, it could have something to do with the discontinuity. I had assumed a crossover adjustment might help. I will try a more "normal" position today. BTW, outside the Orcas eliminates all walk around room. I'll shot a picture when I rearrange them.
Dan,
That is a lot of space between the two drivers. On the floor will get only one room boundary reinforcement. The other walls will be well away from the Dungeness' driver. Come to think of it, I have the XLO burn in disk. It might help me find any holes.
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Ok, more listening. Here is how they are placed:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg7%2FGrainger49%2FOrca%2520Dungeness%2FOrcaSBS2Sm_zps7405cb0e.jpg&hash=004521005dfe414170d5bdc211c6a780fbf5bbcc)
This puts the Orca drivers about 3-4" below my ears not 4-5" above them. That made quite an improvement. I can't figure out why above ears is so much worse than below ears. Go figger'.
I made some notes. The tall Orcas didn't have the soundstage I am used to from them, but I didn't notice yesterday since I was just listening to the bass. The bass is now better and deeper. On the old Fleetwood Mac bass is much improved, not discontinuous.
The Orcas are the first speakers that have had a clear height to the sound produced. In FM's Oh Well the classical guitar is higher than the bass guitar. The flute in the break is taller than the classical guitar. Each is in a different left to right position so it isn't like it was a mono recording.
Moving to The Wailin' Jennys 40 Days. Arlington opens with drums. The first one is a low bass, then a higher bass soon joined by brushes on the snare drum. Each exists in a distinct position in space. The lowest one is revealed for the first time since first hearing it. You can hear the tone of the drum head as well as the primary low note. I have heard this album in a number of systems and it has never been reproduced as well.
Percussion on this album sounds live. In many ways it is like hearing this album for the first time.
Now mostly listening just for fun. Dire Straits Love Over Gold and The Beatles Love albums. I'll wiggle the subs back and fourth as Dan suggested later.
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This morning I played a Japanese SACD of SRV's Couldn't Stand The Weather. They must have spent half the money for mastering on Tin Pan Alley Blues not on the title song. There is a night and day difference in the sound.
Anyone familiar with this album knows how heavy the bass is. It fills the room corner to corner. No difference today. Sadly only the best track, Tin Pan Alley Blues, has a well recorded bass guitar. It is clean, and was on the Orca Dungeness combo this morning.
More later, less sooner.
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Today I received an Oppo player. My beloved Proceed PCD (first generation) CD player quit playing the first three tracks of anything about a month ago. So the SPDIF output of the Oppo is feeding my first generation Ack! dAck!.
I put on k.d. lang's Inge'nue in remembrance of my sister in law. She passed away in the first week of March this year. She gave me this CD. This CD has subterranean bass on the first and fourth tracks right in the opening of the tracks. And the Dungeness and Orca integrate well. The bass is as deep as other subs but more detailed.
Just wanted to post. No one else seems to be joining in with their experiences.
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I've been messing around with some near field listening and find that I really like the sound when I position the drivers about 4-5 inches from my ears an stick my head between the two speakers so they essentially become headphones. It sounds like I stuck my head into the music. I normally listen with the speakers placed about a little over an arms length away from my chair which is still closer than most people but this ultra near field arrangement has an even more magical quality to it. II would say its a similar listening in surround sound where the music envelops you much more so than in a typical arrangement. Maybe Blumenstein should rig-up a system headphone system with the Orca drivers in an arrangement similar to the AKG K1000 which is still one of my favorite headphones.
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I got the mental picture of me listening to the family's first stereo with the speakers pressed against my head. The speakers were plastic and the stereo was a Philco.
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I got some tweeters to help my hearing. I have been playing all sorts of things deciding on the series resistance to pad them down and series capacitance to use to cross them over. I may have zeroed in on 1uF for the crossover.
But... today I'm playing Dave Brubeck Quartet's Time Out. The drums are distinctly to the left. They run from a few inches inside of the left speaker to about 1 - 1/2 foot from center. It is realistic except the bass drum is dead center. This is very discontinuous for me to listen to. The opening of Take Five has the bass drum with the rest of the set but it is all drums in the opening and during the drum solo. Duh!
But the other songs have the bass drum mixed dead center. In those days it was because bass faded to one side didn't come out well, it only used one woofer.
More later, less sooner!
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Grainger, what type of tweeters are you using? I eventually might need to do the same thing. I have a 20-25 db dip in hearing in the 4-6khz range from being in a rock band in my youth and then working in a power station when I was young when hearing protection wasn't required. At normal listening levels things seem to sound ok but I might be surprised by adding a tweeter.
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I have a pair of Fostex T90s. They are 106dB sensitive.
I'm wondering if a dip in the 4-6k Hz range would be filled by them. They need to be crossed over at 5k Hz or they roll off. And, of course, they go much higher than 6k Hz, somewhere about 30k Hz.
But if you get your hands on a pair it would be worth your time to play with them.
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Grainger keep us posted on the tweeters. I ended up using 0.1 uf after trying several different sizes but never went as high as a 1uf cap. I also only seemed to like them when they were pointed backwards. Never tried them with the Orcas though. I just picked up some used Orca subs to go with my Orcas. I am excited to be able to do a real comparison with the Abbys. Taran
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I will do that. They suggest 1-1.5uF cap for use with a pair of their FE208 Sigma drivers.
What doesn't make sense to me is that the calculated crossover (3db down point) for that is 2k Hz and the tweeters are down 106dB at 2k Hz. (Edited, I had the roll off wrong)
Calculating at 0.1uF the crossover (again, 3dB down) is at 19,8943 Hz and flat at 198,430 Hz. But I have tried 0.1uF and the tweeters functioned well. They are easily audible.
So the calculations don't seem to work as I expect. It is confusing.
But forget the calculations, I'm trying to please my ears.
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I never calculated it out. I just sort of bracketed it. I ended up at .33-.47uf, with no series resistance and yes it was fun pointing them to the rear...John
PS. I was looking at the pic from a while back and you know you need, at least 2 cats for proper room dampening 8)
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I'm pretty happy with the KK 0.47uF@200V. Not as special as the V-Cap TFTF 0.47, but much cheaper.
I already have them. The V-Caps are for my Eros and I really want to put them in there.
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I'm in from the heat and doing some lazy listening, digital!
I put on Joni Mitchel's Night Ride Home and on the second cut there is a (I think I know the right name) talking drum that is 5 feet to the left of the left speaker. I've had some images to the right of the right speaker, I think because of a reflection. But this sound is solid and always in the same spot. This is disconcerting in that it comes from behind the left wall and so much wider than anything else without the Carver C-9 making things come from everywhere.
I'm going to get the LP. It is expensive! About $40 delivered. It seems it was not ever pressed in the US.
Told you guys these speakers are soundstage champs.