Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => S.E.X. Kit => Topic started by: Loquah on July 21, 2013, 03:26:38 PM
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I've noticed across a range of different threads that there is talk of replacing the smaller capacitors in the SEX kit and bypassing some of the larger ones. I also see photos where it appears the larger caps (1000 uF) are replaced.
Can some tell a complete modification newb the benefits of doing this? Are the changes to sound significant enough that I should buy different capacitors to install from scratch or is this a "tinker later" type of upgrade?
I have built a stock Crack successfully so can comfortably manage stock builds, but don't know what I'm doing with mods.
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Tinker later. Build first, break it in and sprinkle a little salt and pepper to personal taste (capacitors) when you are ready. The S.E.X. Will sound great from the beginning. Swapping caps allows you to taylor the sound to your system preference.
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Tinker later. Build first, break it in and sprinkle a little salt and pepper to personal taste (capacitors) when you are ready. The S.E.X. Will sound great from the beginning. Swapping caps allows you to taylor the sound to your system preference.
Thanks for the reply! Any suggestions for which capacitors will make what difference (i.e. the smaller vs the larger?)
I should add, that I'm inclined to take your advice about keeping it stock at first, but would love to learn just a little bit more about what I see people doing and why.
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In my experience, the caps that I replace first are in the signal path. Output caps for example. As to what is best, that quickly becomes a matter of taste.
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The reasons for "cap rolling" if you will, much like tube rolling, you will get different sound from cap A vs. cap B. With the obvious out of the way, you tend to get what you pay for, and good caps are expensive.
Best to do some research. As far as whether to replace a pair of caps at a time, or build a whole new modded kit, thats up to you. I built the stock Quicke first, got it to work, then built a completely modded one after that. I have both so I can compare. I upgraded everything in the modded one. That might be kind of (very) expensive for the S.E.X. Its easy to spend many hundreds on boutique stuff. If I had a somewhat complex kit I would go slow. Get to know your parts and what they do. In your manual you can get a hint of what the parts do, focus on the small value caps. Get more familiar with what they do. Ask some questions here. Do some cap research. Dig around on the site for what others have done. Study the attached link to get started on what caps you might be interested in, and what your budget may be for the same. Good Luck! ;)
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Eric
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Build it out, burn it in, listen for awhile. It is much easier to troubleshoot a stock build and you then have a sonic signature basis with which to compare mods. Boutique caps are, in fact, expensive, but not necessarily better. It really depends on how you want the unit to sound and other components in the audio chain. Some of the best sounding caps, with top notch construction are old American and Soviet paper-in-oil caps. When you compare them to the cost of Jensens, AudioNote, Dueland and other newly manufactured PIO caps, don't let the cost differential make you think the more $$$$ the better cap. Russian Teflons, especially the FT series are also well regarded in the DIY community. Most of us could never afford the cost of the Russian caps if they were being manufactured today in an open market. Think of it as the Cold War military budget subsidizing your audio habit!!
Search and read through forum posts on what others have used and why. I would put fellow forum members opinions and experience well above any online cap survey, especially one that compares the caps in speaker crossovers, not amplifiers. (Although cap construction materials all have a sound signature, plastic caps, plastic caps in oil, PIO's have family similarities) Make sure that the caps, are for you, "ear candy" not "eye candy"!
Have fun building, then enjoy customizing to your taste!!
Cheers,
Geary
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The reasons for "cap rolling" if you will, much like tube rolling, you will get different sound from cap A vs. cap B. With the obvious out of the way, you tend to get what you pay for, and good caps are expensive.
Best to do some research. As far as whether to replace a pair of caps at a time, or build a whole new modded kit, thats up to you. I built the stock Quicke first, got it to work, then built a completely modded one after that. I have both so I can compare. I upgraded everything in the modded one. That might be kind of (very) expensive for the S.E.X. Its easy to spend many hundreds on boutique stuff. If I had a somewhat complex kit I would go slow. Get to know your parts and what they do. In your manual you can get a hint of what the parts do, focus on the small value caps. Get more familiar with what they do. Ask some questions here. Do some cap research. Dig around on the site for what others have done. Study the attached link to get started on what caps you might be interested in, and what your budget may be for the same. Good Luck! ;)
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Eric
Thanks so much for the link, Eric - I'll do some reading.
And to everyone else who replied - thank you for sharing your experiences and advice so openly - I very much appreciate it!
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Funny you should mention the Ruskies Geary. Here is a photo of caps on my burn in rig getting ready to roll in my BeePre :) Included are PIO's (MK's), FT-1's, FT-2's, and silver mica's. All of these cost me under $50 probably.
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True, definitely dont overlook the Russians! Here is another cap test/review where they included some of the Ruskies.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0708/capacitor1.htm
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Aaaah why not, one more..
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/PDF/capacitorshootout.pdf
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Funny you should mention the Ruskies Geary. Here is a photo of caps on my burn in rig getting ready to roll in my BeePre :) Included are PIO's (MK's), FT-1's, FT-2's, and silver mica's. All of these cost me under $50 probably.
A picture is worth a thousand words, but the Ruskies are good for a quadrillion notes or more!!! Does my ears good!
Cheers,
Geary
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Last one, I swear! - its not my fault, you got me trolling through my bookmarks. I have at least 30 bookmarks for all kinds of cap reviews. This guy is a hoot. "Jimmy's Junkyard". His English is not real good but he says it like it is. You have to search his blog to find related stuff but its fun. He has good photos too! (audio porn).
http://jimmyauw.com/2009/08/16/extreme-capacitors-battle-1st-session/
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Tinker later. Build first, break it in and sprinkle a little salt and pepper to personal taste (capacitors) when you are ready. The S.E.X. Will sound great from the beginning. Swapping caps allows you to taylor the sound to your system preference.
Ben Johnson agrees with what Aaron Johnson said... (Sorry, Blazing Saddles flash back there)
But I agree with Aaron. Build stock first, allow it to burn in and get used to the sound, otherwise you have no basis of comparison. You gain no knowledge of what your modifications have done.
The signal path capacitors are the greater change. That is ... well the name says it all. The signal passes through them. The SEX has a 0.1uF and a 1.0uF both rated at 630V. Don't change the voltage rating to a lower voltage rating. If you go higher it won't be a problem except the cap really gets large.
Signal path caps are like spicing. Some guys like garlic, some like cilantro.
The power supply caps are what dumps energy into the circuit when it needs it. Electrolytic caps are large, inexpensive and well suited for power supplies. They have a higher internal resistance (ESR) than film caps which can dump energy into the circuit more quickly. So a film cap can dump quickly giving the electrolytic time to get started.
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In case anyone finds this useful...
[Here's hoping the formatting won't get all screwed up when I hit "Post". --- The prices below are PCX (Parts Connexion) list prices as of today (7/22/2013) and do not reflect the current, limited-time -20% discount. I checked Madisound, but the prices weren't materially different. Note that Madisound often has cheaper/faster shipping, but of course PCX currently has the sale mentioned above.) The list below is not comprehensive --- I only checked those caps that looked like they might be appealing to me, and might be a reasonably priced step-up from my go-to caps, namely ClarityCap ESAs.]
Cap Manufacturer / Line 0.1uf 1.0 uf
Mundorf M-Cap Supreme Silver & Oil $33.46 (1,000V) $55.86 (1,000V)
Mundorf Supreme (metalized polypropylene) $11.19 (1,400V) $18.90 (600V)
Mundorf MKP $3.49 (630V) $3.63 (400V only)
Mundorf EVO
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Hey! That mostly worked! ;D Not perfect, but at least the columns are broadly intact.
Although it is indicated in the chart, I forgot to highlight the fact that the Mundorf EVO
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How do you guys feel about the Russian silver mica KSG-2s? I don't see much info about them online other than in that review. I would think that mounting them might be an interesting challenge :)
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That's a pretty darn good list of boutique "affordable" caps. Gets painful toward the top though!
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I would try them - try any and all of the NOS Russian stuff, but you must report back to us your findings. I think most people skip the Russians because they look funny, and they want to spend some money and go boutique.
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Eric,
I was kind of hoping to get your thoughts on the following:
- Mundorf Supreme
- Mundorf M-Cap Supreme Silver & Oil
- Jensen Copper Foil PIOs
- Jupiter HT-Series Beeswax Paper Aluminum Foil
Any thoughts on whether the Mundorf Supremes are worth the premium over the ClarityCap ESAs? Any thoughts on the relative strengths/weaknesses or differences among the other three?
Best regards,
Adam
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How do you guys feel about the Russian silver mica KSG-2s? I don't see much info about them online other than in that review. I would think that mounting them might be an interesting challenge :)
They can challenge or even better the best of the Teflons in terms of clarity, details and simply getting out of the way of the music. The KSG's don't come in high capacitance's and they are relatively big. (hence the mounting challenge!) They take just as long to break in as Teflons. I have used them in a PSE 6L6GC amp as inter-stage coupling caps and they were really very nice.
Cheers,
Geary
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Hey Adam - I think it depends on what size (uF) you are talking about, how much you want to spend what sound you are looking for etc.
The supremes are a good place to start as far as value and you can see if you like the Mundorf house sound. I keep going back to Mundorf because its a known quantity to me. For me to switch brands I'm looking at some serious coin, and I haven't got there yet. I think the upside of buying a super high end cap that everyone loves is that it gives you a frame of reference. Not all reviews and opinions turn out to be accurate, so I try not to be swayed by the "cap du jour". I don't think you would regret any of those on you short list. Personally, I'm curios about the Jupiter HT's. I wouldnt bite on the Jensens. The Mundorf silver/oil seems to be liked by many in the affordable high end bracket. IMO, to do significantly "better" it's going to cost you. From what I have read a about the ultra high end caps is that they get just about everything right, but they are not 5x better than the more affordable cap like the silver/oil.
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- Mundorf Supreme
- Mundorf M-Cap Supreme Silver & Oil
- Jensen Copper Foil PIOs
- Jupiter HT-Series Beeswax Paper Aluminum Foil
The Mundorf Supremes are very good, low cost, all around caps. Nice clarity and slightly on the warm side. Probably one of the best value caps I've tried.
I tried the Silver Oils on the outputs of a NOS DAC, which increased the detail and neutrality over the stock caps. I also installed them in a Norman Koren SPICE circuit which was the best sounding pre-amp I've ever heard, however I didn't roll anything else into it.
The Jensen Copper PIOs are supposed to have a lush midrange and be good for vocals. Haven't tried them yet myself.
I plan on trying a set of Jupiter Flat stacks in my PreBee. People say they are natural, extended and ever-so-slightly colored in a beneficial way. Sounds like my cup of tea ;)
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"I plan on trying a set of Jupiter Flat stacks in my PreBee. People say they are natural, extended and ever-so-slightly colored in a beneficial way. Sounds like my cup of tea "
That's why I bought a pair for my BeePre. I hope that they deliver.
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Someone on page 1 mentioned using film caps with (or in place of) the electrolytics in the power supply because they dump power faster. Is that about using them as bypass caps or actually replacing the electrolytics?
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The Mundorf Supremes are very good, low cost, all around caps. . . .
This could be somewhat confusing. There are at least 3 different configurations of Mundorf caps that are labeled Supreme. The ones he is mentioning above are those linked here:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_mundorf_suprm.html
I don't believe he means the Silver/Oil, Silver/Gold or the Silver/Gold/Oil. Those all say Supreme too. If you had clicked on those first you might have thought they were not so "low cost".
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Because of their construction, the Supremes are 800-volt caps. I like the idea of that for parafeed output applications in power amps, especially the Paramount which has the highest voltage. (I'm talking reliability and longevity, not subjective ound here.)
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I saw a switch just for changing output caps. NOW I understand. Of course, it wasn't a special switch of any kind, just came with an attached circuit board.
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The Mundorf Supremes are very good, low cost, all around caps. . . .
This could be somewhat confusing. There are at least 3 different configurations of Mundorf caps that are labeled Supreme. The ones he is mentioning above are those linked here:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_mundorf_suprm.html
I don't believe he means the Silver/Oil, Silver/Gold or the Silver/Gold/Oil. Those all say Supreme too. If you had clicked on those first you might have thought they were not so "low cost".
Correct. And here I have to lob a complaint toward Mundorf and/or Parts Connexion. While almost every other cap brand / style (including other caps in the Mundorf line) makes it clear what the caps are made of, the Parts Connexion page for the "vanilla" Mundorf Supremes does not. Through some research on the web, I was able to determine they are metalized polypropylene, but the cynic in me thinks they are using the "Mundorf Supreme" name to charge a premium price by getting people to associate them with their more expensive oil/silver/gold caps.
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The way it worked, from what I remember anyway, is that the generic "supreme" came first. The others came later.
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The ones he is mentioning above are those linked here:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_mundorf_suprm.html
Yes that's correct, just the regular Supremes. As Eric said, they are a nice place to start. They won't set you back much coin and they are well regarded in pretty much every review I've ever seen.
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Not that I doubt my ears so much as my expectations. I wish that there was a simple way to blind test these caps, so that the prejudices could be better put out of the way.
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I didn't want him to think that you thought $200 for each capacitor was a reasonable price. That kind of skews a newbie's view of us.
I'm a big fan of the cheapest Obbligato caps.
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I don't have a lot of experience with different caps, but I am very happy with the Obbligato gold caps. I must admit that I suspect I will change out some small solen caps in my latest Q to Obbligato copper.
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I'm a Russian aficionado!
I tried big k75-10 PIO and they are better than stock caps and MGBO ones, then I also try a mixed solution bypassing them with a 0.22uf K72 ones (teflon caps).
With bypass caps I experience more detail and dynamic, but I prefer them in my phono stage, letting my quickie smoothing a bit.
As said before it's a matter of taste...I learned that in hifi you have to understand technical basis first (frequency response, harmonic distorsion, PRAT ecc...) and then it's up to your taste.
Like a good sommelier, you can dislike a glass of Amarone, nonetheless you must know it's one of the best wine in the world!
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I didn't want him to think that you thought $200 for each capacitor was a reasonable price. That kind of skews a newbie's view of us.
I'm a big fan of the cheapest Obbligato caps.
Haha, yeah, that's only reasonable for the craziest of us. Agreed that the Obbligatos are a really great value.
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What value cap did you use for the K72P6? Thanks,
Dave