"classical" VS "pop/rock/jazz" sound?

Wanderer · 4567

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Offline Wanderer

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on: March 22, 2010, 04:01:17 AM
Mark me as someone who thinks that a good audio system ought to make any music sound great.

I have argued with friends that there should not be "Rock" systems or "classical" systems but "good" systems and "bad" systems.

Big "BUT"

I have a "Quickie" set up with Speco autoformers and Hammond plate chokes driving an older set of AKG 240m headphones. With CD reissues of Steeleye Span (Below the Salt), Yes (Fragile), Sonny Rollins (Way Out West) and the soundtrack of "Last of the Mohicans" things sound geat - "impactful", "immediate" and all the usual audiophile trish-trash. With classical music CDs however, the Telarc "Stokowsky Sound" and some Charles Dutoit conducting MSO on Decca, the sound is rather "blah". Not bad, but just Hi-Fi-ish okay. This all runs counter to several decades of my thinking...I do not think of myself as a "newbie".

So my question - what makes a piece of Hi-Fi gear "Pop/Rock/Jazz" or "Classical" balanced?...and why hasn't this punched me in the face before??       

Kevin R-M


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #1 on: March 22, 2010, 05:05:17 AM
Back when I was selling audio gear the Rock speakers were loud but not linear in response like some popular Cerwin Vega of the time.  The Classical speakers were slightly forward (?) in the midrange like the AR 3a.  These two are also classic examples of the West Coast/East Coast sound.

But I agree, good systems are good systems.

In your case the problem may be in the recordings.  Try more Classical recordings and see what you think.  Try "average" recordings to get a base line.  

Just this morning, when I was wandering out into the mist, I thought of "Misty Moisty Morning" and thought of breaking out Parcel Of Rogues and Below The Salt.  Which I will do in a few minutes.  Thanks for the reminder.



Offline Wanderer

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Reply #2 on: March 22, 2010, 05:51:35 AM
I am a reformed audio sales person as well. I was in the mix when folks talked about "East Coast" and "West Coast" sound. Personally I was an "East Coaster" myself, stacked Advents (later, Magnaplanar MG-1a) and McIntosh. Love to hear that rig now - bet it still sounds pretty good.

...However I certainly listened to classical on JBL and Klipsch Speakers and enjoyed it. (I never took the sound of Cerwin Vegas at all seriously..."Loud is Good if...it is somethng other then Cerwin Vegas").

Never has the differance between "Classical" sound and "Pop" sound hit me so much as with my current Quickie/AKG rig.   

             

Kevin R-M


Offline ironbut

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Reply #3 on: March 22, 2010, 08:39:13 AM
It could be the personality of your AKG's. Headphones are such a personal thing since there's no room interaction and even the very best are compromises (just like speakers). I'm not that familiar with the 240m sound but the 701's that I have can sound a little distant and uninvolving to me on classical.
If you know someone with a pair of Sennheiser HD600's, you might give them a try. Lots of headphone fans have more than one pair of headphones for listening to different types of music but that's one of the cool things about cans. For a few hundred $ you can have one for every occasion!

Thanks for posting about "Parcel of Rogues". I haven't pulled that lp out for a while and I'll be sure to do so immediately!
On a similar note,.. I have a solo album by Sandy Denny "Sandy" that I should dig up. Really nice stuff!

steve koto


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #4 on: March 22, 2010, 10:06:53 AM
There are several technical differences which might cause what you are hearing. I certainly hear similar things.

1) Classical music (meaning orchestral music most of the time) is usually recorded and mastered with substantial headroom - instantaneous peaks 14 to 20dB above the peak VU, and little or no compression. Pop and rock are almost always more compressed. That means you will hear any lack of headroom more readily when playing classical music.

2) Classical (orchestral) music is spectrally dense and undistorted at the same time. That means the frequency spectrum has many peaks (tones) with a low background level at non-harmonic frequencies. This background gets filled in by intermodulation distortion, making such distortion more audible. Rock is also spectrally dense, but the amplified instruments already have a lot of IM distortion - it's part of the electric guitar sound. And there is more broad-spectrum sound (cymbals, for instance). So the non-harmonic background is at a higher level and better masks the audio system's IM distortion products.

3) Classical (symphonic) music has much more very deep bass, even though it has less low/mid bass and is not perceived as being so bass-heavy. Very many components are limited in their ability to handle deep bass at high levels, and classical is more likely to put a strain on that ability.

4) This one is controversial to say the least. I'll just give the theory without attacking or defending it, since I am not yet convinced either way. The theory is that small amounts of second harmonic distortion lends a pleasant warmth and immediacy to music reproduction, through the generation of harmonic distortion products (IM distortion products are NOT harmonically related to the music).  Chamber music - and I include much jazz which is also small-ensemble music - is spectrally sparse and does not generate so much IM energy, so it takes advantage of this effect best. I do not suggest this is the only virtue of SE sound - I find I much prefer my favorite large-scale Mahler symphonies with SE amplification, as long as there is enough headroom. But I've also noticed solo guitar with wimpy SE amps and inefficient speakers can sound startlingly real - not like you are in the studio, but like the guitarist is in your living room. It's an artificial effect, but a very attractive one with the right music. A "classical" system with tons of clean power and low distortion, will fail to produce this effect.

Paul Joppa


Offline ironbut

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Reply #5 on: March 22, 2010, 11:16:34 AM
I have to say that I'm in that category of listeners that doesn't want the "straight wire with gain" sound. Maybe that's why so many digital formats and show systems have left me cold and running for analog sources in my own system. That's not to say that I don't strive to get the best detailing and transparency but when it comes to the final tweaking, lush and a bit forward usually comes into play.
I start out by trying to get the most transparency and microdynamics I can so I end up with detailing to burn.
Then I burn some.

More in line with what the OP and PJ were talking about, I've noticed that when I go to hear live jazz, I find myself thinking, " Now that's real dynamics". On the other hand, sometimes  when I go and hear a large symphonic work I think, " Where's the dynamics?".
So I have to think that in some ways, reproduction of classical is on something of a slippery slope for me. Maybe I'm shooting for something that didn't exist in the first place or maybe just on stage or on the podium.
Is it the real thing or is it realler than life?

steve koto


Offline Hank Murrow

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Reply #6 on: March 23, 2010, 03:59:10 AM

More in line with what the OP and PJ were talking about, I've noticed that when I go to hear live jazz, I find myself thinking, " Now that's real dynamics". On the other hand, sometimes  when I go and hear a large symphonic work I think, " Where's the dynamics?".
So I have to think that in some ways, reproduction of classical is on something of a slippery slope for me. Maybe I'm shooting for something that didn't exist in the first place or maybe just on stage or on the podium. Is it the real thing or is it realler than life?

Dear Ironbut; Just maybe it is the venue you are hearing. My local music venue (Hult Center) in Eugene has somewhat muffled dynamics, and I have tried every location in the hall(best in the balcony); while a visit to Disney Hall in Los Angeles revealed startling dynamics, at least in the two locations I sampled. If you typically visit one hall for classical, perhaps try wandering around during a concert until you hear differences, and adjust your seating preference to suit.

Cheers, Hank



Offline ironbut

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Reply #7 on: March 23, 2010, 07:47:39 AM
Hey Hank,
You could very well be right about that. I usually try and sit pretty close to the stage in this hall but prefer to be further back in most.

I'm glad you mentioned Disney Hall. I'm going to try and get a few guys together to go down and hear it (I'm a Geary fan so I've given it a good look already).
Maybe you've also heard the organ at the First Congregational Church in LA? I really wanta get down there and hear that monster too.
http://fccla.org/music.html

steve koto


Offline Hank Murrow

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Reply #8 on: March 24, 2010, 04:52:33 AM
Dear Ironbut; I did much the same thing in Seattle at Benaroya Hall, moving around the venue during a symphony performance to hear what the hall sounded like. This will vary depending upon the type of music being performed, as many modern halls have sound reinforcement systems so they can accommodate a wide variety of acts. Our Hult Center 'Silva Hall' has such a system, and a visit to the control booth to talk to a technician during a rehearsal was very informative. They have preset 'contours' for different types of music! of course, the whole array is powered by sand amps, so who knows what one is hearing. There was blessed little of that at the Disney Hall, and I found the sound there to have plenty of presence and brightness where I sat, once I got over the amazing visual appearance of the Frank Gehry interior.  Cheers, Hank



Offline ironbut

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Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 07:24:31 AM
I know what you mean Hank. In another life, I was able to hear a single performance in Boston and Carnegie Halls and I confess that I was so totally distracted by the atmosphere and history oozing out that I couldn't really say what I thought of the sound. I'm going to get a chance to see a performance in Chicago this summer and hopefully I've matured enough not to be quite as 'star struck' now.

One of these days, I'd love to take a tour of the great halls in Europe. Kinda like those guys that see games in all the great baseball stadiums.

steve koto


Offline Bodyslam

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Reply #10 on: March 24, 2010, 06:43:39 PM
Our Hult Center 'Silva Hall' has such a system, and a visit to the control booth to talk to a technician during a rehearsal was very informative. They have preset 'contours' for different types of music! of course, the whole array is powered by sand amps, so who knows what one is hearing.

Hank,

My understanding is that the system in the Hult Center is an ambience enhancement system rather that a sound reinforcement system. In other words the intent is that you hear the direct sound from the stage, but the sound of the hall is sampled and sent back into the hall to extend and shape the reverb. Is that how the technician explained it to you?

I haven't heard anything there yet, but I have been interested ever since the hall opened, and the system was described in the pro audio magazines.

Paul Stubblebine
Paul Stubblebine Mastering, San Francisco
The Tape Project, LLC
serious student of the audio arts


Offline Hank Murrow

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Reply #11 on: March 25, 2010, 04:10:52 AM
Our Hult Center 'Silva Hall' has such a system, and a visit to the control booth to talk to a technician during a rehearsal was very informative. They have preset 'contours' for different types of music! of course, the whole array is powered by sand amps, so who knows what one is hearing.

Hank,

My understanding is that the system in the Hult Center is an ambience enhancement system rather that a sound reinforcement system. In other words the intent is that you hear the direct sound from the stage, but the sound of the hall is sampled and sent back into the hall to extend and shape the reverb. Is that how the technician explained it to you?

Dear Bodyslam; You are correct for classical concerts, ambiance only..... to extend the reverb time to 2.7 seconds. However, when Laurie Anderson comes to town, or fado singers, or rock groups....... there's a whole lot of shakin' goin' on, with who knows how much sand in the mix! The new orchestra shell added much 'presence' to the sound on the main floor, but I still prefer the balcony. Come for a listen!  Cheers, Hank



Offline Wanderer

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Reply #12 on: March 25, 2010, 04:01:14 PM
There are several technical differences which might cause what you are hearing. I certainly hear similar things.



PJ - thank you for a thoughtful and detailed post.

I am wondering about the head room aspect as you mention. With the lack of efficiency of the AKGs the volumn pot is mostly in the last quarter of rotation. I wonder if I am over driving the tube when playing "Stereo Spectacular" type recordings.

I am curious to try more efficient headphones - perhaps Sennheiser 600s - and/or doubling the 9 volt battery string and hearing the effect.

Interesting - Bottlehead gear is supposed to entice one to experiment isn't it?    
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 05:26:56 AM by Wanderer »

Kevin R-M