Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Crack => Topic started by: rs01 on January 29, 2013, 06:22:32 AM
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Hi everyone,
I built my new Crack kit in a whirlwind last night, but I think I may have damaged a capacitor in the process by nicking it with the iron (there's a little melted bit on the edge where the iron touched) - when I measure terminal 13, the resistance climbs to around 36K ohms then zeros out. Is a damaged capacitor a reasonable assumption and if so, could anyone point me in the right direction for obtaining a replacement from Mouser or similar?
Thanks,
Ryan
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Ryan,
How does the capacitor in the other channel measure. I.E. does it climb and go to zero? Is it possible it climbs and goes OL, for overload? That is what is expected, an overload reading.
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Grainger,
Actually it does go to OL - it climbs to around 36K ohm then reads OL, thanks, in my excitement I forgot how to read ;D.
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Then on to the voltage checks.
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I'm a bit confused by these, nearly everything is wrong, expected is black, read values is well, red:
1: 90 -.696
2: 170 -.684
3: 0 0
4: 170 -.951
5: 90 -.953
6: 0 0
7: 100 7
8: 0 0
9: 100 .60
10: 0 0
11: 0 0
12: 0 0
13: 170-.679
14: 0 0
15: 185 -.681
20: 0 0
21: 206 236.5
A1: 90 -.948
A2: 0 0
A3: 1.5 .66
A4: 0 0
A5: 0 0
A6: 90 -.694
A7: 0 0
A8: 1.5 .628
A9: 0 0
B1: 90 -.695
B2: 170 -.685
B3: 100 6.6
B4: 90 -.949
B5: 170 -.686
B6: 100 .9
B7: 0 0
B8: 0 0
On a small positive note, the tubes light and glow.
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Off the top of my head I'd say the problem is somewhere between terminal 21 and terminal 15
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Off the top of my head I'd say the problem is somewhere between terminal 21 and terminal 15
Yes, I'd be more specific and say the 270 Ohm resistor that sits between them is missing or not connected ;)
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See, you get even better info when the guy who designed it steps in. In 1998 I knew every terminal and every part attached to it in every kit we made, right off the top of my head. 15 years later I am really glad that PJ, PB, Josh and the forum members have the patience to get into the manual and suss out the terminals. That part of my brain seems to have died from years of overload. And unfortunately that part seems to have been reassigned to the storage of my guitar playing skills...
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Off the top of my head I'd say the problem is somewhere between terminal 21 and terminal 15
Yes, I'd be more specific and say the 270 Ohm resistor that sits between them is missing or not connected ;)
Paul,
Thanks - it is there (assuming you're talking about the one between 21U and 15U), but I'll double check and re-flow the solder tonight when I get home. Thanks a ton to everyone for all the help so far, it is hugely appreciated!
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It is easy to check for continuity. Measure resistance from the bottom holes in the terminal strips. The resistor should be in the top holes.
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I'd also measure the resistance of that resistor. You can do this while it's in the circuit (but powered down please) by putting a meter probe on either side of the resistor.
The high voltage on one side of that resistor tells me that pretty much no current is making it through the power supply, so there may be lingering voltage at 21U. If you google "bleeding high voltage supply", you can get some info on handling this situation.
-PB
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I'd also measure the resistance of that resistor. You can do this while it's in the circuit (but powered down please) by putting a meter probe on either side of the resistor.
The high voltage on one side of that resistor tells me that pretty much no current is making it through the power supply, so there may be lingering voltage at 21U. If you google "bleeding high voltage supply", you can get some info on handling this situation.
-PB
I took the advice on http://www.expertsmind.com/topic/resistors/bleeding-off-charge-9609.aspx - which resulted in a loud crack and a spark from the cap on 20 and 21, so it certainly seems like it's not bleeding through the resistor. My meter is reading "OL" with probes on either side of the resistor.
http://imgur.com/Gnqrxhn
Is it worth de-soldering both sides and re-attaching everything?
Thanks,
Ryan
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Once the circuit is complete there is a "bleeder" resistor at the final capacitor. That is the one that is horizontal in your picture.
Now it seems that the power supply resistor is bad. It should not read open (overload). I don't see that reattaching it will bring it back to life. It should be burned or otherwise damaged to be open. You will need to remove and replace it. Give it a good look when you remove it.
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Once the circuit is complete there is a "bleeder" resistor at the final capacitor. That is the one that is horizontal in your picture.
Now it seems that the power supply resistor is bad. It should not read open (overload). I don't see that reattaching it will bring it back to life. It should be burned or otherwise damaged to be open. You will need to remove and replace it. Give it a good look when you remove it.
I pulled it out and there appears to be no damage at all, or at the least no burn marks. The underside is a bit uneven, but that seems to be normal from looking at the other similar style resistors. Through some Googling, it looks like the part number is SQP500JB-270R for Yageo, is that correct?
Also, have I potentially put any other components at risk with having the resistor open and the amp powered on?
Thanks,
Ryan
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Ryan,
Since it looks OK measure the resistance out of the circuit. Yes, others might have been damaged too but let's see if the resistor is bad then move on to the capacitors that would have been molested too.
There should be another resistor between the two caps on the left side of the transformer. Does it measure as it should? Again, just measure resistance across it with the amp off.
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Ryan,
Since it looks OK measure the resistance out of the circuit. Yes, others might have been damaged too but let's see if the resistor is bad then move on to the capacitors that would have been molested too.
There should be another resistor between the two caps on the left side of the transformer. Does it measure as it should? Again, just measure resistance across it with the amp off.
The good news is the other 270Ohm resistor on 13L to 15L measures out just fine. The one from 21 to 15 that I removed still shows OL even after removal.
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I had that happen once, on my first Bottlehead kit actually, the good old Paramour I. I got a 270 Ohm resistor that was open.
You can pop in a 250-300 Ohm 5 watt resistor if you're in a pinch, or we can mail a replacement.
-PB
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Ok, now check to see if the capacitors before or after that bad resistor have a bulge at the end of the cylinder. Often the end pops up when they get molested.
If the resistor was simply defective nothing should have happened to the capacitors. If you measure their resistance, a good capacitor simply climbs in resistance. If that is the case it might just have been a defective resistor.
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Paul,
I went ahead and ordered a replacement from Mouser, along with a few LEDs just in case since those seem to be a place a lot of people mess up and have problems from reading (I figured for a few pennies more I might as well have some insurance). Thanks for all the help.
Grainger,
The three capacitors in the power supply all climb to somewhere around 36-40K Ohm then jump to OL, so I think they're still ok (and there are no bulges or anything). Thank you as well for all the help and advice - I should hopefully be getting the new resistor in Monday so I'll probably be asking about something else then :).
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That sounds like the caps are good.
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Ok, so I got the new resistors in today, put them in, and promptly had a tiny bit of smoke and burnt-out resistor (I'm glad I bought 4). Obviously this is also what happened to the first one, even though it didn't have any burn marks on the outside :(. Any suggestions?
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Ok, this means you are drawing too much current. The two most often reasons are diodes and capacitors in the wrong orientation. But... if you have looked at this before you might want to have someone else look at the pictures in the manual and your components. A wife is good for this as they don't have any preconceptions.
The problem would most likely be downstream of the burned resistor. That points to everything on the left hand terminal strip. The "bleeder" resistor could be the wrong value allowing too much current to shunt to ground/circuit common. All sorts of things could be the problem. But all connections to the left hand terminal strip need checking.
Do check that the connections to the two tube sockets are right. If the outgoing voltage is sent to the wrong tube pin it could cause this problem.
Good luck! Post back.
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Ok, this means you are drawing too much current. The two most often reasons are diodes and capacitors in the wrong orientation. But... if you have looked at this before you might want to have someone else look at the pictures in the manual and your components. A wife is good for this as they don't have any preconceptions.
The problem would most likely be downstream of the burned resistor. That points to everything on the left hand terminal strip. The "bleeder" resistor could be the wrong value allowing too much current to shunt to ground/circuit common. All sorts of things could be the problem. But all connections to the left hand terminal strip need checking.
Do check that the connections to the two tube sockets are right. If the outgoing voltage is sent to the wrong tube pin it could cause this problem.
Good luck! Post back.
Grainger,
Thanks, I will re-check all the capacitors and diodes (and dragoon my gf into checking as well). Just to clarify, by upstream and left hand terminal you're talking about 11-16, correct?
Thanks,
Ryan
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If the right hand terminal strip, 1-5, has diodes on it, then I am talking about 11-16. By downstream, I'm saying that what is drawing the high current happens after terminal 1-5. There could be a short after those terminals.
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If the right hand terminal strip, 1-5, has diodes on it, then I am talking about 11-16. By downstream, I'm saying that what is drawing the high current happens after terminal 1-5. There could be a short after those terminals.
I just had the most productive conference call ever - I pulled up a picture of my build and started comparing it to other build pics while bored on a call, and I'm 98% sure I have a capacitor in backwards. Now I can't wait to get home and check it out!
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If you have reversed a capacitor it is either bad or going to go bad shortly. Electrolytic caps don't like a reversed polarity.
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If you have reversed a capacitor it is either bad or going to go bad shortly. Electrolytic caps don't like a reversed polarity.
Would these be an ok replacement? http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic/EET-ED2E221BA/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduiFjZFkE3tIIGjlXHOgcJUWIOtg08o4sg23Ecmz6BcvkA%3d%3d
After flipping the cap around, the A3 LED lit (A8 did not) and I measured 140v on terminal 1 (90 expected) before shutting it back off because it seemed like the output stage cathode resistors were getting too hot and I did not want to fry them. I'll investigate more tomorrow, and as always thank you for the help and advice. There's no way I would be able to do this without the awesome people in this forum.
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We can send you a replacement cap if needed.
It's good that one of the LED's lit, that's a good start. I think you can leave the amp on and take the rest of the voltage ratings.
One LED not lighting will present high voltage at either terminal 1 or terminal 5, so don't be alarmed. With a full rundown of mismatches, we can offer better advice on remedies.
-PB
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We can send you a replacement cap if needed.
It's good that one of the LED's lit, that's a good start. I think you can leave the amp on and take the rest of the voltage ratings.
One LED not lighting will present high voltage at either terminal 1 or terminal 5, so don't be alarmed. With a full rundown of mismatches, we can offer better advice on remedies.
-PB
PB,
If those caps are ok, I can go ahead and pop one in - I ordered 3 with the extra resistor as a back-up plan in case I'd messed something else up.
Thanks,
Ryan
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Ryan,
Those are nice caps. If I understand you either have them in hand or they will be to you soon. Just to be safe swap out both capacitors on the second terminal strip. Both saw the high voltage.
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Ryan,
Those are nice caps. If I understand you either have them in hand or they will be to you soon. Just to be safe swap out both capacitors on the second terminal strip. Both saw the high voltage.
Awesome, thank you sir, I'll swap them out this evening.
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Ok, new caps are in and seem to be working. I still get one LED lit (a3), but not the other. Voltages are:
1: 90 145
2: 170 162
3: 0 0
4: 170 162
5: 90 78.3
6: 0 0
7: 100 145
8: 0 0
9: 100 97.1
10: 0 Varies from 0 to around 16v, meter jumps around quite a bit
11: 0 0
12: 0 0
13: 170161
14: 0 0
15: 185 184.2
20: 0 0
21: 206 207
A1: 90 90
A2: 0 0
A3: 1.5 1.5
A4: 0 0
A5: 0 0
A6: 90 145
A7: 0 0
A8: 1.5 13.7
A9: 0 0
B1: 90 145
B2: 170 161
B3: 100 145
B4: 90 77.7
B5: 170 161
B6: 100 96.7
B7: 0 0
B8: 0 0
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Check the solder joints on the LED that goes to A8.
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Check the solder joints on the LED that goes to A8.
New LED put in and it works!
Awesome!
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PB, Grainger:
Thank you both so much for your patience and assistance. The amp sounds absolutely wonderful and I've just ordered the Speedball upgrade - not that I find the amp lacking in any way, but it just looks like fun.
Thanks,
Ryan
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Ryan,
You think, "How can this get any better?" then get an upgrade and go, "WOW!"
Enjoy the music!