Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Foreplay III => Topic started by: syncro on April 07, 2011, 06:06:39 PM
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After finding out how much sound changed when rolling coupling caps in my ST-70 I have an itch to try it in the Foreplay III stock build. I see on this board recommendation for Obligato brand, and I like the price point.
Would Obbligato 2.2uf/250vdc Tinfoil/film Coupling Cap at: http://www.diyhifisupply.com/node/483?t=1302234476 (http://www.diyhifisupply.com/node/483?t=1302234476) be the ticket?
I thought there was a posting about Foreplay III coupling capacitors, but I can't find it now. Somewhere P. Joppa stated, regarding coupling caps, to upgrade this first> (250v or greater voltage rating, but anything from 1uF to 10uF will work fine).
Stock came with 2.2 uF. What sonic effect might different values have?
Thanks in advance. David
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You said the magic word (Obbligato) and I posted.
Yes those would be the proper voltage rating and the value is good as well.
I am a big fan of the cheapest of the Obbligato caps (630V works for everything Bottlehead). They are slightly warm sounding. I have suggested them for several folks with SEX amps and they have always been happy with the results.
Since they are so cheap why not get a pair of the big black ones at the same time? And don't forget to buy the shipping from DIY Hi-Fi Supply.
Changing the value to a higher value will not change a thing as it is already flat at about 10 Hz. Changing the value to a smaller value will change the spot where the preamp is flat on the low end. But, seriously, who can hear a 30 Hz note (if it were in our music) in a typical listening room?
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Thanks for the tips and info. Now, about the
....the big black ones....
Do you mean the Obbligato Film Oil 2.0uF 630V that start at 2.0 uF value? I guess I could hang a couple of those under the chassis!
Looks like in the link I posted I picked out their MOST expensive - more than their Premium. Since "coupling" is in their title, along with Tin, I figured it would be a safe bet. The Copper is the least expensive 630v. The Film Oil is by far the least expensive of all, the largest dimensionally, and somehow the most interesting - especially given your endorsement to try it. Looking forward to studying the burn in method you have posted and giving it a try.
And I won't spend too much time listening for 10 - 30 Hz, until I get a test record to play it for me on cue - and a subwoofer since Fortes roll off at about 32 Hz. ;-)
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David,
Yes, the cheapest of the Obbligato PP Film in Oil are the ones that I have bought about a dozen of. I have sent some to buddies so I don't have the dozen in my system.
I first used them on the suggestion of another Bottlehead, wish I could remember to give him credit, for the 10uF 630V Parafeed cap in my Paramours. It was hard to find an affordable cap that size and voltage rating.
I was blown away with their sound for the very low price.
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Thanks again, Grainger. I'm going to try these inexpensive oil cans, burning in with your "patented" method first. Hope to report back in a few months after they arrive and I've had a listen!
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I burned in according to Granger's method for four (4) days and had some listening tests. First evening we liked the original caps best. After a couple of days use in the Foreplay III things were different. The kids and I voted "most natural" on the new film-oil caps.
I'm guessing that the high DC voltage I am measuring (70 vdc or so) on one side of the caps in the Foreplay III is burning them in more/differently?
Anyway, thanks for the inexpensive upgrade/tweak.
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Sadly not everybody likes the same cap, buys the same car, likes the same interconnects or speaker wire. That makes it hard to guarantee that a suggestion will fit another person's taste. A number of Bottleheads, myself included, have liked the cheapest Obbligato caps. Only a few were not happy (I can't guarantee that they burned them in long enough either).
But the diversity of the human race is what keeps it interesting.
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I have liked Obligatto myself. But if those aren't quite what you like or you just want to try something else, Auricap is always a perennial favorite and that is what I have in my FP III.
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Still listening to these big Obbligato film oil caps and digging the sound. Briefly re-tried the stock caps and I would still say the difference is subtle, but the Obbligatos are winners and will be soldered in place soon. Maybe single-ended tube amps, e.g. Paramours, would make the difference more clear, but the Dynaco ST-70 is still in-line to my Klipsch Forte IIs.
Thanks, Paully for the reassurance that Auricaps can be another viable option someday. May try upgrading my speakers' caps next, but that will be another thread.
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I have a pair of the tin caps that you mentioned in your first post. I haven't used them in my Foreplay, but I was swapping them in during the recent Bottleneck Linestage Competition. My entry was very similar to a Foreplay I. The difference was not subtle at all compared to the russian PIO caps I was using. Very smooth and natural.
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Thanks for the opinion/description on the tin caps I first posted about. I did not end up getting those. Maybe they would be more noticeably different/better at $40 /pair than the very inexpensive film-oil caps I purchased.... Good to have another option to try someday.
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On this topic, I've just received in the mail a pair of 2.2uf Jantzen Superior "Z" caps (the red ones with copper leads), which are presently sitting on a bread board and being burned in with a Hagtech Frybaby (along with a .1 uf Jupiter cap I'll be trying for the OD3 tube). In another three or four days I'll probably take them off the Frybaby and put them in my FP III, so I'll let you guys know how that works out.
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On this topic, I've just received in the mail a pair of 2.2uf Jantzen Superior "Z" caps (the red ones with copper leads), which are presently sitting on a bread board and being burned in with a Hagtech Frybaby (along with a .1 uf Jupiter cap I'll be trying for the OD3 tube). In another three or four days I'll probably take them off the Frybaby and put them in my FP III, so I'll let you guys know how that works out.
I put Jupiter HT caps in my Stereomour and am very happy with them. They are rather expensive. If you just change in the Jupiters by themselves first I would be very interested in your evaluation.
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I put Jupiter HT caps in my Stereomour and am very happy with them. They are rather expensive. If you just change in the Jupiters by themselves first I would be very interested in your evaluation.
While I wish I was referring to the HT Jupiters in my last post, unfortunately it's simply a Jupiter "Vintage Tone" film cap that I put across the OD3 tube, tonight as a matter of fact. It's hard to say for sure, but listening to piano music by Schubert that I've been playing nightly for the last week, there almost seems to be more background detail, like a creaking bench and pedals, etc. Perhaps it's a lower noise floor? I don't know.
I'm building Paramours right now, and I intend to eventually put Jupiter HT caps in them, since I find the beeswax idea very intriguing. I know it's a little ridiculous to start picking exact upgrade parts before you're even finished with the thing, but if ever there were a sympathetic crowd, I suspect I'm probably among them here.
So Thoburn - what improvements did you get from installing the HT caps in your Stereomour?
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Yes. a bypass cap across the gas reg will give you a more quiet background. Bear in mind that a "vintage tone" (smells like old wax?) probably means that the cap's sonic character is a bit mellow. That might be the thing you want for a coupling cap if you need to tame the top. But for a bypass cap where you are trying to shunt off some noise you might want to consider a "modern tone" ( smells like polypropylene?) cap that is intended to work well at very high frequencies.
Speaking of Jupiters, does anyone know of any research done about their stability with time? The reason I ask is that I have begun to restore an old Hammond organ (ca.1942). One of the biggest issues with Hammonds of that era is that about 40 or 50 caps in the tone generator are wax caps used in tuned filter circuits to eliminate higher harmonics from the tones, and typically those caps have increased in value about 80% over the years, lowering the filter frequency and making the highs very dull compared to the mid and bass notes. Hammond switched to mylar caps in 1954, thus solving this problem, and the usual restoration procedure is to recap the whole thing with mylar caps, which creates controversy over the change in sound. Might be interesting for Jupiter to make wax caps just for this app if they remain stable with time.
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doc -i had some problems with the jupiter ht caps in a scott222-too hot in there not the jupiters fault-i let jeff glowacki from sonic cap know about this and he got back to me right away-from what i gathered from the short conversation we had-this was not common -so that is some feedback but i would contact jeff glowacki or elliott at soniccaps.com-i have had them in use for i am going to guess 5years with no problems except with the scott- i use them in my phono stage's on my scotts and dynaco's and in some of my speakers- if i had a seduction or eros that is also where i would use them-i put them in as a experiment -a successful one -they allow-uh they add--no-you cock your head and say -well listen to that!! would ya!!!----
howie
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Yes. a bypass cap across the gas reg will give you a more quiet background. Bear in mind that a "vintage tone" (smells like old wax?) probably means that the cap's sonic character is a bit mellow. That might be the thing you want for a coupling cap if you need to tame the top. But for a bypass cap where you are trying to shunt off some noise you might want to consider a "modern tone" ( smells like polypropylene?) cap that is intended to work well at very high frequencies.
Speaking of Jupiters, does anyone know of any research done about their stability with time? The reason I ask is that I have begun to restore an old Hammond organ (ca.1942). One of the biggest issues with Hammonds of that era is that about 40 or 50 caps in the tone generator are wax caps used in tuned filter circuits to eliminate higher harmonics from the tones, and typically those caps have increased in value about 80% over the years, lowering the filter frequency and making the highs very dull compared to the mid and bass notes. Hammond switched to mylar caps in 1954, thus solving this problem, and the usual restoration procedure is to recap the whole thing with mylar caps, which creates controversy over the change in sound. Might be interesting for Jupiter to make wax caps just for this app if they remain stable with time.
Something labeled "Vintage Tone" is not typically what I'd go for, but I was already ordering a bunch of stuff from partsconnexion and figured I'd try it out for fun since they're inexpensive. But this is what the manufacturer says about them:
"Construction is Aluminum Foil with Polyester(Mylar) Film Dielectric with tinned copper leads."
Interesting that you bring up the issue with the old organs and the beeswax caps. It's not the first time I've read about problems with reliability with that type of capacitor, especially in a hot environment. I would think the modern ones from Jupiter are designed to hold up better over the long-term.
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My first build, a Christmas present amplifier my brother got in 1965, had bees wax caps. Luckily the horrible Japanese (no slight meant here, but it was not to ISO standards) kit (the instructions and the schematic were wrong) came with all sorts of extra parts - Caps included. We blew several caps apart while doing the smoke test.
The second and third time we had the amp wired to a switched outlet. The sequence went switch on, bam and the laughter. We ended up getting a family friend to help us. He is the one that pointed out that neither the instructions nor the schematic were right. At that date I couldn't read a schematic, 10 years later I could.
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Earlier in this thread I mentioned that I had a new pair of Jantzen "Superior Z" capacitors (the red version with copper leads) on a Hagtech Frybaby to burn them in prior to installation in my Foreplay III - they spent just about 6 days on the Frybaby, although Jim of Hagtech suggests that only 48 hours should be enough for capacitors. Well, I just installed them a little while ago and I am very happy with the results. The sound has become more natural and seems to flow more easily, and I'm hearing more micro-dynamic cues that give you more of a "live" sense while listening. Plus enhanced sweetness, more of what I find I really like a lot about the Foreplay. Started off with songs by Clara Schumann (the wife of famous 19th century composer Robert Schumann), since I thought female voice would be a good challenge to throw at the new caps. I won't get into too much more detail here, but suffice to say it looks like these will probably be something I'll recommend in the future for the Foreplay.
I should add that I was very, very close to pulling the trigger on the Obligato Gold caps. The only reason I went with Jantzen is because I've used this exact model in a speaker crossover with good results, and I'm impressed with the build quality for the price. Frankly I'd still like to try out the Obligatos some time down the line, whether in the Foreplay or the Paramours.
Perhaps after a few days of listening with these new Jantzen caps installed I'll start a new thread here and describe the results in more detail. Right now, so far, so good.
EDIT: If I had to summarize what I'm hearing so far, I'd say that everything simply sounds much clearer than before. So, now on to some Webern...
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Hmm I would appear to have just had an accident with an American capacitor manufacturer which might involve the letter V and have tinfoil and teflon in there construction...
Ooops :-)
Question though is how do you burn in a capcitor? <-- these things take like 600hours :-o & I am an impatient person
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Gee I wonder what in the world it could be? ;)
Someone on this forum (sorry I can't remember their user name at the moment) explained in detail how to make a dummy load with a capacitor so you can just attach it by itself to the speaker binding posts on your amp. Also there are system break in CDs that I imagine might possibly work for that, and cable "cookers," which is what I'm currently using, and is a convenient, simple, and effective method of burning in capacitors. I've had a pair of .1mf Russian Teflon capacitors on my Hagtech "Frybaby" for nearly two months. The forum member I mentioned above says Teflon caps take a lot longer to burn in, and about two and half to three weeks is fine. I've only left mine like that for so long because I don't currently need them, nor do I currently need to use the Frybaby for anything else at the moment, and I figure it can't hurt.
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. . . Question though is how do you burn in a capcitor? <-- these things take like 600hours :-o & I am an impatient person
The more voltage you swing across a capacitor, the more current you get through them.
For Teflon caps I go for 300 hours, say 12 days continuous, should work for yours:
Fast Break-In Instructions (http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,80.msg286.html#msg286)
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a bit late to the party on this one...my pupils dilate a bit whenever I read about cap discussions. Rolled several caps through my system. Of course, I have not paid the "big bucks" for the Duelund Casts, V-caps etc., but my experience has been that the Mundorf Supreme/Silver-Oils have been my favorites. I have some Obbigattos that I had in my speaker crossovers for awhile. They were a bit "sloppy" IMO. Switched to Amphom paper/oils. Better. Ended up bypassing them with Mundorf silver/oils for the hell of it. Fantastic. I have some Mundorf Supremes in the Quickie. Much better than the kit caps. Not sure if silver/oils would be better? When I get my new power amp I will hack the silver/oils from my Mouse and try them in the Quickie.
Bottom line - caps are huge, and as expensive (or more) than tube rolling!
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Grainger:
Many thanks - I knew you had written about it, just couldn't find it!
The capacitors, surprisingly, arrived just before christmas - THEY ARE HUGE!!!
So it is new chassis time...
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That post is buried in a Paramount thread. I need to copy it to my folder and give a new link. The subject will be easily searchable.