Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Phono => Topic started by: wullymc on June 22, 2013, 01:05:03 AM
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Hi everyone. Looking for people's thoughts on the cartridge you are using. Mine is the first cartridge I have had so I don't have much to go on.
The phono stage I use is a Graham Sleep Era Gold V and am using a 2M Bronze. The music I listen to most is prog. Rock. I find the cartridge very cold and analytical. I am looking for something more musical.
What do you use and how do you find it?
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I'm using a Grado Sonata-1. Smooth, and great imaging/soundstage.
You will find a number of answers in this old post:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,4379.msg41297.html#msg41297
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With any MM cartridge it is worth while to experiment with cartridge loading.
What tonearm and interconnects are you using? Older turntabletables/arms might have interconnects with high capacitance. Too high a capacitance could cause...." a resonant peak at some frequency within the audio band, and this will often give the illusion of 'brightness'...."
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/cartridge-loading.html#s3
Sometimes a change from the stock 47k ohm resistive load. I found my AT 440 MLa sounded smoother into a load of circa 33k ohms. (Dont' have any idea what loading might work for a Bronze)
On another list I wrote:
"Go to Radio Shack and buy 2 wye RCA adaptors (two female RCAs to one male RCA), 100k 1/4 watt carbon film resistors (they sell 'em sets of five you just need two), two male RCA plugs.
Solder (or have somebody do it for you) a 100k ohm resistor from hot to ground in each of the RCA plugs. Do it so you can reassemble the plugs. Disconnect your phono leads from the preamp inputs. Plug one wye connector into each of the preamp inputs. Plug each of your turntable leads into one of the female connections on each wye adaptor. Connect the 100k shorting plugs you made earlier to the other female connectors on the wyes.
You have now connected 100k across the preamp which will result in the standard 47k load now being approximatly 32k.
If the sound works you can have somebody change your preamp load internally OR you can make up an adaptor from more high-endy bits from Parts Connection or where ever. "
Make some sense? Might save you the cost of a new cartridge.
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Interesting, Kevin. This gets at a question I had about loading and capacitance (two different things, right?) in another thread.
I use an AT 150MLX. I like it a lot, though I wonder if lowering the loading would make it sound even better.
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I contacted Grado about this, they said no capacitance needed and 47k resistive loading. So I haven't experimented.
Ok, I'm lazy and would prefer someone else to do this tedious footwork.
Sam,
There are several factors to include when looking for capacitive loading. Each cable has some number of pF per foot. The input, grid, has some capacitance to it as well. Then you can add what is needed to come to the optimum capacitance. Otherwise you will lose high frequencies that are "shunted to ground" by excessive capacitive loading.
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I've settled on a JICO MM-1 cart. It's 95% of the Lyra Kleos I just sold and that's saying something. I've had 20 plus carts both MC and MM in the past 6 years with a dozen or so stages. IME, matching a table, tonearm, cart, headamp, and phono stage is a time consuming and expensive undertaking not to mention a pain in the ass. Every small change effects the overall sound but once you dial in the sound you're looking for, it's magic.
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IME, matching a table, tonearm, cart, headamp, and phono stage is a time consuming and expensive undertaking not to mention a pain in the ass. Every small change effects the overall sound but once you dial in the sound you're looking for, it's magic.
It is an amazing pain in the ass. IMO, once you find something you like, it is a good idea to leave it alone and just enjoy it!
-PB
(PS - I use a Micro Seiki DD-40 with an Ortofon MC-30, Bottlehead Tube Phono, and top secret MC step up)
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Well stated PB. I'm sticking with my combo and have no desire to upgrade.
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Currently using a Benz Micro Ruby2 LOMC on my VPI TNT w/ 10.5i arm. Nicely detailed with the characteristic Benz warmth. I also have a SoundSmith Voice in acrylic, a moving iron cartridge. The Voice is more neutral and at 2.2mV can be used without step up devices. I have also enjoyed the better Grado's, also moving iron. Moving iron cartridges are a nice combination of the higher output of MM and the better detail recovery of the MC's.
I am a bit of a TT nut having several vintage Thorens, an Empire 208, RekoCut Rondine and a Gates transcription table, ( I am restoring). I use mostly MM on them, except the TD124, which has an Ortophon SPU, (rebuilt to stock specs by SoundSmith, the SPU is a very early MC with the step-up transformer built into the headshell). All of the vintage tables sound really nice, but not a match to the VPI. Not that I expect them to be!
I can not agree more with the need to match table, arm, cartridge and amplification. Yes, it is a PITA, but once you find the synergistic combination...Wow!! Taking the time to find the right combo will beat throwing mucho $$$$$ at the table any day.
Cheers,
Geary
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Years ago I used a Grado Sonata. Was a little too smooth for me. I preferred the detail of a Dynavector X20? Sorry, don't remember the exact model number. Just know it was MC/HI-OUTPUT. But as stated above there are a variety of other factors involved for dialing the sound you desire.
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If you are finding your sound too analytical, have you tried not listening to Prog?
I usually think of the Orto house sound as being pretty balanced. If you're looking to lush it up, Grado is your most logical choice. Denon could be OK too, I'd definitely shy away from AT.
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Greg,
I had a similar problem swapping between the Denon DL-103C and my Grado. Then I botched the Denon's cantilever, problem solved.
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YOWSER! Man, there is NO feeling like that...I know from a few experiences. Might be a good title for a new thread. "I can't believe what just happened" To add-a few years ago, I scorched/burned/destroyed a beautiful set of EXPENSIVE drivers. Yes, it did bring tears to my eyes.
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I am using a Sumiko Blue Point Special EVO III on a Project 6Perspex. To my ears it has lots of details with a clear and warm sound, very dynamic and live like. Although it is a high output MC, that can run through a MM input, I run it through my MC input configured to 100 ohms / 120pf.
Best
Michael
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You can learn something new 'hear' everyday. Never thought of running a Hi-output cartridge that way? Have you compared it both ways?
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Yes, I compared it both ways, but settled for MC. On the MM input it felt like there was less clarity and even a bit like muffled. My dealer actually recommended this setting.
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MAN, cartridges are sooooo touchy compared to just about anything else audio. And that is what makes them cool. Just by adjusting tracking force on some makes, you can hear a difference. But when it's right, don't touch nuttin! Sit back and marvel.
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I just mounted a Shure M97xE. Replaced an Ortofon 2M Red.
I like it. Has a nice mellow sound to it. Killer midrange, vocals are to die for.
I was a bit concerned about the hinged brush, but I noticed no differance in the sound with it up or down. And I did add the half gram of force with brush down. Has a very thin cantilever that actually bends when the stylus hits the groove and it sticks in the groove too, something I can't say for other carts I have used when the stylus falls on the "start" band.
A very nice cartridge for 70-80 bucks.
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Mike if you want to take your new Shure to the next level, pick up a JICO SAS stylus for it. It's transformative in many ways.
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I have a sumiko blue point special evo III as well. I don't have much experience in the last decade with any other but it was my best cartridge purchase when it first came out and when my son damaged it, I didn't think twice about what to replace it with. Nothing I owned in my earlier life came close to sounding this rich and warm. and clear.
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I currently in the process of upgrading my setup.
I have a Lyra Delos MC cartridge, a Rega RB-1000 arm, Bob's devices SUT, and should have my Sota Sapphire in a few weeks.
Debra
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I have a Grado Sonata-1 in my Souther arm. I often get the question, "so you like that sound." But that is from people who have never heard a top end Grado. I also have a Denon DL-103C with a broken cantilever that will get retipped. And a HOMC, hypereleptical, cartridge (NOS) from SAE, it is a Coral cartridge. Both are waiting for rotation into my system.
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You can see my cartridge on my signature, but the one that mesmerized me is Acutex 415.
I think she is the one I prefer now: lots of bass, a bit rought on high frequencies (but it's more a speaker's problem than cartridge's as I mainly use my fullrange), and very forgiving for surface noise.
I'm still waiting to hear my Denon with my UTC SUTs (soon to be finished)...who knows?! maybe Denon could be better, but SUTs are a big variable and they can colour the sound.
In conclusion: grab one Acutex STR if you can, and if you have a low mass tonearm!
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Haniwa HTCRO1 is the only cartridge I have had that makes me feel like I don't need to keep looking for something better.
At the opposite end of the spectrum, there was a Walco branded MM cartridge that an online seller had a surplus batch of maybe 15 years ago. Can't recall the designation, but it was around $35 IIRC. The thing had a Shibata type stylus and sounded like a $200 cartridge.
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I started with a Rega Elys for my P25 but now I don't even remember how I broke it. I think I had it less than a year. Eventually I got a Shure V15 and within 2 months I accidently ripped the stylus out while drinking and dusting off the table. :'( Been using the replacement stylus for over 12 years. I think it's almost done as the cartridge body is damn near dragging onto the vinyl. But it still plays and sounds ok. I've been looking at the SAS upgrade stylus for it for a while now. Not too expensive of an upgrade.
Still, I sometimes dream of getting a really nice cartridge.
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Dan,
It scares me that you have a cartridge that I can't even find the cost of. That said, I probably couldn't afford it anyway till the next temp job.
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Dan,
It scares me that you have a cartridge that I can't even find the cost of. That said, I probably couldn't afford it anyway till the next temp job.
It took me a while, but I found it listed as $5K. :o
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I think that is more than the rest of my system cost me. But... I am a proponent of cartridges being the most critical thing in the phono chain of components.
Maybe I should save my Social Security checks?
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Rob,
You might be surprised about replacing the stylus. If the cantilever angle(rake angle?) is off, then likely is the sound as well.
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Greg,
Can you PM me and explain the difference between SRA and VTA. I read an article that just confused me. I think you could do better.
Thanks,
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Dear AZrockitman;
I just had Andy at Cartridge Repair fix the broken cantilever of my BPS EVO lll, and it sounds as glorious as ever. You might email him with questions about cost of repair: "Andy@ Needle Clinic" <[email protected]>
If you send your cartridge to him, he will evaluate the repair cost and advise. If your BPS stylus is still good, it may be inexpensive to repair; if not, he may have a stylus to offer to you at a good price. Honest and very effective work. Ask PB (Caucasian Blackplate) about him.
Cheers, Hank
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I'm using the Shure M97xE. I is a very nice sounding cartridge once it opens up. I took Aaron's recommendation and put the JICO SAS stylus in and was very pleased with the results. Much quieter and more resolving.
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Hi Brad, I'm glad the combo is working for you!
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I also use a cartridge from Andy, and would highly recommend him.
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I use a Denon DL110 and it sounds great for the money. Not much at the same price point that can compare in value. That said, I am eyeballing a Soundsmith Carmen or Boheme for the near future which will likely be a massive improvement.
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Dear AZrockitman;
I just had Andy at Cartridge Repair fix the broken cantilever of my BPS EVO lll, and it sounds as glorious as ever. You might email him with questions about cost of repair: "Andy@ Needle Clinic" <[email protected]>
If you send your cartridge to him, he will evaluate the repair cost and advise. If your BPS stylus is still good, it may be inexpensive to repair; if not, he may have a stylus to offer to you at a good price. Honest and very effective work. Ask PB (Caucasian Blackplate) about him.
Cheers, Hank
Hank,I'm embarrassed I missed your comment until just now. I appreciate the tip, greatly! Thanks!
Currently I'm listening to the 3rd record in the 45RPM pressing of Cannonball Adderly-Miles Davis album Somethin' Else, and some spit just landed on my cheek from Mile's trumpet, so I have to go wipe that off.
(that's how much I love this LP with my Sumiko, so getting my damaged one repaired sounds appealing)
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I have used various lower cost cartridges such as the Shure M97XE, Denon MC, various Grados, Audio Technica 120E. Funny thing is perhaps I am just a little to easy going as I have yet to meet a cartridge I didn't like. I thought all of them had great sonic attributes. Am now using an Grado MCZ that I like a lot and will probably stick with for a long while. It certainly seems to do the trick!
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That makes Paully the Will Rogers of cartridges.
The Grado he is using was next to the top of the line when made. A Joe Grado cartridge.
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I have used a few cartridges.
Dynavector 10x5
Lyra Delos
and my current cartridge is a Kiseki Purpleheart.
The Lyra was very nice, but the Kiseki just sounds smoother to me.
Deb
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Hi Deb,
Who do you know? :-) How in the world did you manage to get thatt cartridge? Bet it's beautiful. I also am just seeing that there has been a recent? upgrade to the whole analog font-end -- Congrats.
-- Jim
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Jim,
Thanks
I was just lucky in finding it. It is a great sounding cartridge and it matches the purpleheart woos finish on my Sota!
Deb