Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Seduction => Topic started by: marantzfan on November 23, 2013, 05:47:16 AM
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Last year when BH was doing a cyber Monday sale, I bought the Seduction with Upgrade kit and shortly after if got here I got it put together (except for the upgrade isn't installed yet). I stopped at that point because my voltage readings were off and then a gnat flew by and here we are nearly a year later.
So, hopefully someone here can help me to figure out what I have wrong here so that I can get this phono pre singing along with my Stereomour.
Here area list of the resistances that are not within tolerance:
Terminal Resistance My Resistance
1 * 4.1
2 * 4.1
6 * 3.5
9 * 2.3
12 * 330
15 * 330
17 165-200 4.3k
19 175-210 4.3k
22 165-200 0
24 175-210 10
25 * 330
27 * 17
Couldn't get a reading at A3, B3, A8, B8
Here are a list of the voltages that are not within tolerance:
Terminal Voltage My Voltage
6 6.5VDC 1.7VDC
9 6.0VDC 1.3VDC
27,37 70VDC 134.4VDC, 134.4VDC
29,39 70VDC 132.0VDC, 132.0VDC
30,40 70VDC 131.0VDC, 131.0VDC
A1, B1 70VDC 130.0VDC, 130.0VDC
A3, B3 1.6VDC 168mv, 177mv
Also, the transformer seems to get very warm. I didn't leave it powered up for very long, just long enough to get the voltage measurements.
I've visually checked and double checked my work and can't find anything suspicious. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Anthony
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Hello Anthony,
We are certainly still quite up for helping you with your Seduction!
There is a small cluster of 1N5818 didoes with a 1.2 Ohm resistor and a 10,000uF cap. I believe you have a backwards diode there, as you're not getting anywhere near 6.3V. This would also explain the hot power transformer. It's also possible that the 10,000uF cap is in backwards, which would cause similar issues.
Once you get 6/9 to read around 6V, you'll get more reliable voltage readings elsewhere.
-PB
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Here is the diodes section.
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Hmm, nothing wrong there.
How about pins 4/5 on each 9 pin socket?
Also, you can pull the tubes and repeat the voltage checks for the ~6V terminals, it should creep up a bit over what's specified.
I also see that you have 0 Ohms at terminal 22, can you double check that? There is symmetry back there on those two strips, so 0 Ohms at 22 should indicate 0 Ohms at 17, but both of those are a mistake. The bare buss wire should only touch terminal 16, maybe there's a short between 16 and 17?
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Blown fuse. I see a trip to radio shack in my immediate future. These are fast blo fuses right?
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Slow blow 0.5A or fast blow 1A will work.
A blown fuse indicates a short (as we were discussing), a miswire, a backwards cap, or a backwards diode.
-PB
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Installed new 1am fast blow fuse and it shorts instantly at power up.... Hmm
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Try disconnecting the power transformer leads that connect to the DC heater supply and fire it up again. If a fuse holds you know the short is in the heater circuit somewhere.
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Just to make sure I understand this correctly, should I disconnect the two transformer wires coming into terminals 1 and 2 then power up to see if the fuse holds?
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Yes, that is what they are saying. And tape the wires just to be safe.
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Ok, disconnected transformer leads from terminals 1 and 2 and taped each to be sure. Powered up and fuse blew instantly but also, cap between terminals 20 and 25 is bulging. I verified that it is oriented correctly as well as the diodes underneath it..??
Bad transformer?
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When they swell they are bad, probably open, but maybe shorted. I posted a picture of one that came out of my air conditioner compressor a year ago. The top was spherical.
The conclusion would be that the leads to T1 and T2 are ok, the high voltage supply is the problem. Is that where the cap on T20 to T25 is?
Transformers are not often bad out of the box. But if molested they can give up smoke. You usually see smoke from them. The fuse is there to save the transformer because it is the single most expensive component.
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Haven't seen any smoke yet... I'm completely dumbfounded on this one. Btw, I just noticed that the resistor under that cap looks like some of the ceramic coating got cooked off of it...?
I've been sooooo happy with my stereomour I just want to get this pre working so I can listen to records again.
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I looked at my schematic. T20 to T25 is the first high voltage capacitor. There is no resistor from those two terminals but there is one from T25 to T15 (1k Ohm) and one from T15 to T14 (270k Ohm). Which one is burned?
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Actually the resistor looks chipped not burnt; maybe I did that installing it. It's on the corner of the resistor. Also, the resistor doesn't connect to the burnt cap but the terminal next to it...
I'll snap a few pictures of this area when I get a chance.
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Powered up and fuse blew instantly but also, cap between terminals 20 and 25 is bulging. I verified that it is oriented correctly as well as the diodes underneath it..??
Bad transformer?
Either the diodes are in backwards, the cap is in backwards, the 3 high voltage transformer wires are not properly connected, or some other issue is present.
I now would suspect that your low heater voltage is due to a miswire in the high voltage section dragging everything else down.
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I have already verified that the diodes and caps are properly oriented so the only thing left is the wiring. I'll take a look at the wiring and compare it to the instructions. I hope this didn't cause any damage to the transformer.
Also, I wonder if I can get a replacement cap locally somewhere...
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I'll have to remember where to look for the wiring as the manual I have desciribes three different colored wires coming off the transformer but the kit I have has no wires coming from the transformer and was all connected with plain black hookup wire. I seem to remember that there was a link somewhere to an update but its been a while. :-\
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The middle black wire needs to attach to the ground buss, and the outer two need to feed the first 0.01uF/1.6KV cap.
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I'm at work right now and my instructions are at home. Can you do me a favor and remind me the size of the capacitor that is cooked so that I can see if I can get one at radio shack on the way home from work today. If I can, I can replace it and fix the wiring (if miswired) so that we can see where we are at tonight.
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It's a 220uF/250V cap. A 100uF/250V cap would be enough to get you back to troubleshooting.
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OK, I'll see if I can pick one up. Going to feel really stupid if I miswired it. ???
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Eh, my knowledge of your operational issues is mostly from screwing up my own projects, so there's certainly no need to feel stupid about anything.
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Doesn't look like Radio Shack has anything near that large in stock at the store. Any idea of another place that I might be able to pick one up?
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Where abouts are you?
In my area, there's a Fry's Electronics, which has suitable parts. There's also a surplus electronics store run by a bunch of veterans that has all sorts of interesting goodies (even tubes).
When I need a part in short order, I generally never even consider Radio Shack anymore.
You also might be able to go to your local thrift shop and pick up a used camera flash. Pop that baby open and there should be some 330uF/350V photo flash caps that will do the job quite nicely for you.
-PB
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I'm in the Phoenix Metro area. There is a Fry's not too far away, I'll stop by there. Thank you sir.
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Struck out at Fry's too, looks like I'll be ordering one..
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Believe it or not it was wired correctly. But, I had to unbraid the wires in order to verify that. When I tried to re-braid them I kept coming up short so I decided to unsolder the wires from the transformer to re-braid them and then re-install. Well, in the process of doing that I managed to melt off the middle transformer solder tab so now I definitely need a new transformer. Damnit!
A little frustrated tonight; time for a glass of wine. Does BH still stock this transformer?
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A little frustrated tonight; time for a glass of wine. Does BH still stock this transformer?
The Seduction has been out of production for quite some time, and we do not have any additional PT-1's.
You can use this (http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70008994) transformer with the Seduction, but it will be pretty noisy.
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Damn, other than that is there anything else I can do?
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You could probably glue the lug in place and still use it.
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Ok, I'll give that a shot. Still confused as to what the problem is as the transformer was wired correctly and the cap and diodes are all oriented correctly.
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A little frustrated tonight; time for a glass of wine. Does BH still stock this transformer?
The Seduction has been out of production for quite some time, and we do not have any additional PT-1's.
You can use this (http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70008994) transformer with the Seduction, but it will be pretty noisy.
That Allied transformer is, I believe, the one that came with the original version. There is a little magnetically-induced hum from the tube closest to the transformer, but it was usually OK with 5mV cartridges - the 3mV and lower output carts had more of a problem.
We put the power transformer on 1" standoffs in the first revision, which helps - gets the transformer a bit further from the tube. Later, we had the PT-1 custom made to be quieter. (Now the Reduction uses our larger custom preamp power transformer PT-5 with a quite different power supply - not a reasonable retrofit.)
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Thanks for your help Mr. Joppa, that's good to know since the cart I'm using (Ortofon 2M Black) is 5mv.
So, the plan is to replace the bulging cap and hook the transformer back up and then take another close look at that area for some discrepancy from the instructions. There aren't a lot of parts there so this should be pretty simple. At first when I noticed the voltages were that far off I knew it had to be something in the power supply and have looked and looked and nothing looks wrong. If nothing jumps out at me and I'm still not getting proper voltage I guess I could try the above referenced transformer..
Wishing now that I had bought the Reduction since its not going to be going anywhere for a while.
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You can also send your Seduction in for repair if you'd like.
-PB
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I think that's what I will do. Who do I need to contact to set that up?
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I bought a Seduction the day they were released. It has the Allied transformer. I built it with the power supply outside the chassis with 4 wires coming to the Seduction chassis.
There was no hum, the transformer was 3 feet away.
That is always an option.
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I think that's what I will do. Who do I need to contact to set that up?
Service (http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php/categories/service)
You can purchase this item, let us know it's for a Seduction, and we will mail you a box and packing materials.
-PB
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Done, it will be nice to have this pre up and running finally.
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Incoming!! :)
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I got the seduction back from repair this Monday and it sounds great. Apparently my transformer was labeled incorrectly (upside down and backwards) which is why I had it wired wrong.
PB got it straightened out for me free of charge and very quickly. Absolutely love this company.
Now to install the cs4 upgrade! ;)
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You gott'a love a company that supports legacy products like that. I'm not surprised. They are all good guys, plus the Queen.
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CS4 installed and everything just got a little better. This was definately an audible upgrade. Thanks again to the fine folks at bottlehead.
Now, what's the next kit I can't live without? ;)
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You obviously need a DAC.
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Nice! If you are ever looking to go off the deep end with your seduction...: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1964.0.html (http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1964.0.html) :)
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You obviously need a DAC.
Agreed. I have a Dacmagic and a Bifrost but what I've been reading about the upcoming Bottlehead DAC definitely has me interested.