Tube Rolling w/Crack

Dr. Toobz · 753404

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Offline attmci

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Reply #1335 on: March 26, 2016, 09:04:41 AM
Thanks much for the quick response.

There are Dual 6BL7 TO 6AS7 tube converter adapter available now.  Curious if it can be used with Crack.  Hope someone has more experience than me can test it in the future.   
I never did try the 6BL7/6BX7.  They have the same pinout as the 6080, so there isn't any need for an adapter, but rather to take voltage measurements and to calculate tube dissipation and approximate the output impedance with the BX7/BL7 (which I wouldn't expect to be as optimal as with the 6080).



Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #1336 on: March 26, 2016, 10:19:38 AM
As PB said, "...there isn't any need for an adapter." The dissipation and plate current are both low enough to not exceed the ratings for 6BL7 or 6BX7.

Paul Joppa


Offline attmci

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Reply #1337 on: March 28, 2016, 05:59:39 AM
I'm sorry, I really should be more clear. My real question is if we can use a pair of 6BL7 with the Crack.

A pair of these draw 3A, and one 6AS7/6080 draw 2.5A.

Here is a picture of the adapter:

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-5XaGX9OqyzJ14DdhDkqJsgvC8OuF4hIw42-GEDBZRsSQjEZ_)

As PB said, "...there isn't any need for an adapter." The dissipation and plate current are both low enough to not exceed the ratings for 6BL7 or 6BX7.



Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #1338 on: March 28, 2016, 06:26:59 AM
We do understand your question, and the answer is still not to use the adapter, but rather to plug a single 6BL7 into the 6080 socket.

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline attmci

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Reply #1339 on: March 30, 2016, 09:53:59 AM
Thanks Paul.

No problem to use a single 6BL7. However, no way it can beat a 5998 etc by itself.

What's the drawback to use two of this with an adapter?

We do understand your question, and the answer is still not to use the adapter, but rather to plug a single 6BL7 into the 6080 socket.



Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #1340 on: March 30, 2016, 10:55:28 AM
The circuit calls for two triodes. You are asking about using four triodes. What circuit are you thinking of - are they paralleled, or something?

Paul Joppa


Offline attmci

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Reply #1341 on: March 30, 2016, 03:23:25 PM
Yes. They are paralleled for Elise or Woo amp. There a lot of discussions going around at Head-fi. A number of people who have those amps report very good results with multiples of the 6BL7 compared to the 6AS7 type tubes.

The circuit calls for two triodes. You are asking about using four triodes. What circuit are you thinking of - are they paralleled, or something?



Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #1342 on: March 30, 2016, 04:23:59 PM
Thanks - that helps me understand the question. What follows below is a discussion of just the technical issues, which I hope is helpful. Direct personal experience is going to be more significant - so give it a try and report your results, and we'll all benefit.  :^)

The 6BL7 and 6BX7 are rated for 12 watts total dissipation, but up to 10 watts on one triode as long as the total is 12 watts. So for amps that need more than 6 watts dissipation per channel, you would need two in parallel. Crack only dissipates about 2.3 watts per triode so that is not an issue, though it may be with other amps.

The other thing that paralleling two triodes does is double the transconductance (which cuts the source impedance feeding the phones in half). The 6080 has the same transconductance per triode as the 6BL7, but the 5998 has nearly twice the 6080 transconductance. So a paralleled 6BL7 is roughly equivalent to a 5998 in that parameter. I suspect that is the main reason for the audible difference.

There are also (moderate) sonic negatives associated with paralleled triodes, at least to some people, so a good 5998 might be expected to have the edge - but they are expensive, hard to find, and the selection has been picked over for many years. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Paul Joppa


Offline attmci

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Reply #1343 on: March 30, 2016, 06:32:25 PM
Thanks again for the reply.

Now the question is if the Crack can handle the ~3A heat current of the due tubes need.

Thanks - that helps me understand the question. What follows below is a discussion of just the technical issues, which I hope is helpful. Direct personal experience is going to be more significant - so give it a try and report your results, and we'll all benefit.  :^)

The 6BL7 and 6BX7 are rated for 12 watts total dissipation, but up to 10 watts on one triode as long as the total is 12 watts. So for amps that need more than 6 watts dissipation per channel, you would need two in parallel. Crack only dissipates about 2.3 watts per triode so that is not an issue, though it may be with other amps.

The other thing that paralleling two triodes does is double the transconductance (which cuts the source impedance feeding the phones in half). The 6080 has the same transconductance per triode as the 6BL7, but the 5998 has nearly twice the 6080 transconductance. So a paralleled 6BL7 is roughly equivalent to a 5998 in that parameter. I suspect that is the main reason for the audible difference.

There are also (moderate) sonic negatives associated with paralleled triodes, at least to some people, so a good 5998 might be expected to have the edge - but they are expensive, hard to find, and the selection has been picked over for many years. You pays your money and you takes your choice.



Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #1344 on: March 31, 2016, 08:00:19 AM
Sorry I missed that! The PT-3 power transformer spec is a maximum of 3.5 amps RMS. That winding is the most highly stressed one, so I cannot recommend exceeding it even though the high voltage winding is lightly loaded. No 5687s, and I'm leery of the 6SN7 used with pairs of 6BL7/6BX7.

Paul Joppa


Offline attmci

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Reply #1345 on: March 31, 2016, 07:24:40 PM
Great.  So the spec is the same as the newer PT-5 and PT-7 confirmed by the designer of the transformer.  8) 
Sorry I missed that! The PT-3 power transformer spec is a maximum of 3.5 amps RMS. That winding is the most highly stressed one, so I cannot recommend exceeding it even though the high voltage winding is lightly loaded. No 5687s, and I'm leery of the 6SN7 used with pairs of 6BL7/6BX7.



Offline Paul Birkeland

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Reply #1346 on: April 01, 2016, 07:06:36 AM
You could try the paralleled 6BL7 tube adapter in the Crack-a-two-a, which uses a different power transformer that isn't going to be bothered by the additional current demand on the heater winding.

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #1347 on: April 01, 2016, 09:19:21 AM
Great.  So the spec is the same as the newer PT-5 and PT-7 confirmed by the designer of the transformer.  8)
PT-5 has a 9-volt winding rated 2.8 amps RMS; PT-7 has a 6.3vCT winding rated 4.0 amps RMS.

Paul Joppa


Offline savant

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Reply #1348 on: April 19, 2016, 12:26:47 PM
How are these tubes and what config should I use with the Sennheiser HD650 ? And how much these tubes worth ?

What upgrade should I be going for first ?  Below are the seller comments

Quote
I have built this amp as carefully and meticulously as I can. The circuit is noise-free and all voltage readings are within spec.

A high quality Alps RK27 volume pot has been installed instead of the supplied, which has much better low volume tracking. The output capacitors have been installed on leads for easily upgrading to PIO or film capacitors.

The box is finished in "liquid amber" wood stain and clear polyurethane varnish. I will admit the varnish is not 100% smooth in places and could do with another coat. The chassis plate and transformer bell housing is finished in high-temperature rated matte black.

The following tubes are included:

Power:
RCA 6AS7G (x2)
Svetlana 6H13C (x2)
Telefunken 6080 (this one is a rebranded Sylvania)
Unfortunately all bar the Telefunken have slight microphonics

Input:
RCA 12AU7 (x2)
Phillips Miniwatt 12AU7
Brimar 12AU7 (x3, all different plates)
Electro Harmonix 12AU7

(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuWnxhp1.jpg&hash=4f9599b28f8a9bc461f85cbe5c1aa4383e4ccdc1)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 12:30:31 PM by savant »



Offline FairDinkum

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Reply #1349 on: April 20, 2016, 01:46:27 AM
Hey gang long time no see! I built my Crack/speedball in September 2014 and only now have I tried the almighty Tung Sol 5998. O.M.G! Totally worth the hype! Now, has anyone paired that with the Genalex Gold Lion 12AU7? I'm using the Senn HD650.