Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Speakers => Topic started by: adamct on August 19, 2013, 12:35:23 PM
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First, a bit of history: I know next to nothing about speakers, but I know a fair amount about headphones. I mostly listen to contemporary music, although that can be all over the map stylistically, from electronica, to folk, to indie rock, to pure pop and vocal jazz.
When we bought a house two years ago (in what I consider a suburb, but my wife considers rural), after years of moving around and living in apartments, I decided to buy a nice stereo system. I did some research online, and wound up with a Vincent SV-236 Mk amp, an Audio-Gd DAC based on PCM1704UK chips and a pair of PSB T6 speakers. While I liked the T6 speakers, they never really got me particularly excited. A friend I trust recommended that I get a pair of Magnepan MMGs and an economical sub. I wound up getting a pair of MG12s instead, along with a sub. When I first hooked up the MG12s, I was blown away. And every time I listen to them, I am absolutely floored. I love them. I love their sound. The MG12s provide clarity, detail and sweetness, while the sub fills in the bottom end in a way that is emminently satisfying. And I found there was just absolutely no comparison between the MG12s and the T6s -- the MG12s just seemed to blow the T6s away. It was like they weren't even in the same league.
But the experience has left me a bit confused about a few things and the next logical steps when it comes to be time to upgrade:
1. Do you think it is the MG12s in particular that impressed me, or is it just that I am reacting to the planar sound as compared to "box" speakers?
2. Do you think the T6s are overrated? They were the subject of glowing online reviews from numerous sources. Did I just expect too much from them? Would more expensive "box" speakers be significantly better?
3. Do you think that there are "box" speakers that would be a clear upgrade over the MG12s, or would I be best off by upgrading to other planars?
4. There are obviously speakers out there that cost a fortune -- and I don't even mean a small fortune, I mean an actual fortune. But then I take a look at something like this kit (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2.5-way-speaker-kits/zaph%7Caudio-zrt-2.5-way-revelator-tower-parts-only-pair/), and wonder if it isn't possible to put together world-class speakers for somewhere around $3,000-3,500 (after including the cost of enclosures). From what I understand, Zaph Audio is well-respected when it comes to speaker designs, the kit uses well-regarded components (including two Scan-Speak Revelator drivers per speaker), the crossover (particularly the upgraded version) seems to use pretty good components, etc. Are commercial speakers that cost, say $8,000+ really going to be better? Or would I be paying for $5,000 worth of veneer and marketing, but getting inferior components and sound quality? I know that good components are not, by themselves, a guarantee of sound quality, but it isn't like this is some cockamamie design from an amateur hackjob...
Thoughts?
Best regards,
Adam
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There are a lot of variables that go into a system. It could be amp/speaker interaction, speaker/room interaction, or just your listening preferences.
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When it comes to commercial speakers you're best bet is to get out there and listen to as many as you can. Find a pair that get you moving. Don't just look at the outsides or the marketing or the specs. LISTEN!
Consider selling all of your gear and trying something different.
Keep your mind open.
Good luck.
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Yeah...I guess I'll have to see if I can find a good place to audition speakers next time I'm in NYC...
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Consider selling all of your gear and trying something different.
I have to admit I'm very, very happy with my amp and DAC(s), so I don't see those changing quickly, although I can see myself buying a second amp at some point to "play" with, before making a decision. But I won't let the Vince t go lightly. ;D
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Hey Adam - If you like the sound of the "plannars" then that may be where you should stay. IMO the one downside to the panels is the lack of punch. What I may do is build my own some day with a ribbon tweeter and some nice cones for the punch. Kink of like how Martin Logan has done. IMO its the best of both worlds. OR - buy a Martin Logan!
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That is pretty close to what I feel I have now. The sub gives the punch and rounds out the sound. And the Vincent is 250W into 4 Ohms and really makes the MG12s sing. Long term, I think I will wind up getting a pair of 3.7s, provided I can wear my wife down enough over the next 10 years or so.
What I really want isn't necessarily new speakers, it is time to listen to the speakers I have!
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I was always curious about the Vincent. Looks like it sounds as good as it looks. As far as speakers go, I tried so many over the years , that I couldn't name them all. It was a blast, but like you, I was still looking for 'my sound'. For me, it all came together when I went the open baffle way of things. Even then, not all full range drivers impressed me. The 'shout' problem was prevelant in many that I heard. But regular box speakers were a thing of the past for me. I CAN say that more likely than any other change in system character can come from speakers. The fact that you like the Maggies tells you what YOU should look(listen) for. The Martin Logans may be worth a listen. Don't stop there. Get around as many kinds as you have available to hear what you like and DONT like.
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What I really want isn't necessarily new speakers, it is time to listen to the speakers I have!
Amen to that. There's not much better cure for an itch to tweak, upgrade, or otherwise generally f#$@ around with my stereo than being unable to listen to it for a while. Then, I'm just happy to sit, have a drink, play a record, and be reminded that my stereo sounds pretty damn good.
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This is a sad statement for us guys.... "just to have the opportunity to listen"... God, thats depressing. It shouldnt be that hard!
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In my case, the problem is that I get home, then (if I'm lucky) eat dinner with my wife and kids and put the girls to bed. Our walls transmit sound better than a stethoscope, so no listening to speakers after that. So I'll have to wait a few years until the girls can stay up past 8pm...
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I raised my kids as a single parent, so things got done differently. And of course, there is no right way, you just do your best. Anyway, I didn't think about the music making too much noise, because it's music, not noise. Looking back, I was not aware that it mattered(20/20 hindsight). Years later, my youngest son told me how much he enjoyed the music at night(no, not a good time for heavy metal). Funny how that works. I'm betting that if my parents played music past my bedtime, it would have kept me up.
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Okay, okay, I should have stated that differently. I have it pretty good: I listen to music almost every day, usually for several hours a day, since I work at home four days a week. I was trying to convey something along the lines of "being away from it for a day or three or fifteen, such as when traveling or after a busy weekend, makes me appreciate that what I have is pretty good." That's all.
I do have small children, but they hear lots of music thanks to my habits. I have been focusing on sound quality at lower SPLs lately, since I also often spin a few records at night after the kids have gone to bed. I'm currently breaking in a pair of Markaudio Alpair 10p drivers in some hacked together bookshelf-sized cabinets. They are about as clean and accurate a full range driver as I have heard, within their limitations. They are a bit underpowered with my SEX 2.0 though, which is why I have a pair of 300B Paramounts on order. This setup probably won't have the slam that Eric and Adam are talking about, but it should deliver the goods in almost every other way possible.
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If you possibly can, attend a regional audio show. RMAF would probably be the first choice, but if distance is an issue there has been a show in New York the past few years. And there are several others like AXPONA in Chicago and the shows in LA, SF and the DC area.
Yes the rooms are less than ideal. Yes, some guys don't take the effort to properly set up their system. But even so you can get a huge (sometimes overwhelming) sampling of what's out in the market these days in a single weekend. You might not find your dream speaker, but you might go a long way in narrowing your choices.
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That's an excellent idea. I'll start looking into show schedules. I have to believe there is a lot going on in NYC...
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If you possibly can, attend a regional audio show. RMAF would probably be the first choice, but if distance is an issue there has been a show in New York the past few years. And there are several others like AXPONA in Chicago and the shows in LA, SF and the DC area.
Yes the rooms are less than ideal. Yes, some guys don't take the effort to properly set up their system. But even so you can get a huge (sometimes overwhelming) sampling of what's out in the market these days in a single weekend. You might not find your dream speaker, but you might go a long way in narrowing your choices.
Exactly! You don't know what you have or want until you can hear a wide variety of systems to put it all in context. I was at Axpona and heard several speakers I could love and live with but sadly most of which were way out of my price range. But it also gave me the perspective that I would have to spend over $3K to beat my $600 open baffle speakers! That made me feel good because I got the best speakers out there for my money.
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What are your open-baffle speakers? I've been trying to learn more about open-baffle speakers as a possible middle ground between planars and box speakers...
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What are your open-baffle speakers? I've been trying to learn more about open-baffle speakers as a possible middle ground between planars and box speakers...
Open baffle means the speaker is mounted to a baffle with no box on the back side to control the rear wave. Now you can't just mount any speaker this way. It has to have the right specs for it to function properly.
Danny Richie of GR Research has designed several open baffle speakers. I have a pair of the X-Statiks he designed for AV123 which has long gone out of business. I even have a matching open baffle center channel speaker!
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2FX-Statik%2520Upgrades%2F323ceae1.jpg&hash=94562d4f85f05237373a0af7df8986b87ff69030)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2FX-Statik%2520Upgrades%2F4c8cc419.jpg&hash=c786830d1ee3d0489b6afd0b23a98842a52d1b32)
Danny still has driver & crossover kits of these on the cheap and all you have to do is make the cabinets. He also sells kits of the same basic design but with higher quality ribbon tweeters.
His most recent project is for a new company called Serenity Acoustics. The Super 7 uses all ribbon drivers for the mids and highs with servo-controlled open baffle subs bringing the bottom end. Only $20K/pr. 8)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgr-research.com%2Fpics%2Fs77.jpg&hash=576143ea7f9455a7fdeee79ac17805c9e53d3c44)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gr-research.com%2Fpics%2Fsilverpair3.jpg&hash=50058cd3561c15337bfe7965c62d995c03b92fb6)
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Thanks! The OB-7 looks intriguing indeed....
:)
Adam
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Fortunately, there are a lot more choices for OB now. Guys both of those systems are incredible looking. No doubt, they excel in sound as well. Here is may attempt at about $1,800/pr. I used a flash for the photo, so the wood is actually darker and the black paint is gloss, but not shimmer type finish.
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Those look cool. Although the sides look almost furry or like they're carpeted.
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Hey Rob - I'm captivated by those blue monster tube mono's! What are they? Whatever they are I can't afford um!
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Rob, Yah, I used a clear coating over the black. The coating has reflective qualities and really messes with flash photography. I'll get some new photo's and post them.
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"From what I understand, Zaph Audio is well-respected when it comes to speaker designs, the kit uses well-regarded components (including two Scan-Speak Revelator drivers per speaker), the crossover (particularly the upgraded version) seems to use pretty good components, etc. Are commercial speakers that cost, say $8,000+ really going to be better? Or would I be paying for $5,000 worth of veneer and marketing, but getting inferior components and sound quality? I know that good components are not, by themselves, a guarantee of sound quality, but it isn't like this is some cockamamie design from an amateur hackjob..."
Hi Adam,
FWIW... I built a pair of zaph ZD5's last winter. I went with solid maple for the enclosures (spent some serious coin on my woodworking setup) and got the crossovers pre-built from madisound. I am using a gainclone I built (LM3875) with a foreplay III in front of it as my spare-bedroom/theater/gaming setup. I originally planned to put these speakers in the main setup in the living room, but they kick so much ass for watching movies/listening to internet radio/playing call of duty that I can't bring myself to move them into the other room. They have a spooky 3-dimensional sound and I have caught myself jumping out of my seat several times when I hear footsteps or door-knocks behind my head.
They are expensive... and a lot of work (if you have never built your own cabinets)... but knowing what I know now, it would be worth paying an extra $500 to do the work for you. They pretty much destroy anything else that I have come acrossed... would love to hear the ZRT's as well.
-matt
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Thanks, Matt. I am definitely consider a pair of Zaph speakers, although those open-baffle OB7s are intriguing, too...
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Hey Rob - I'm captivated by those blue monster tube mono's! What are they? Whatever they are I can't afford um!
Those are a custom-built pair of 280 watt monoblocks built by Gary Dodd of Dodd Audio. They weigh about 275 pounds each.
19"x33" The output tranny alone weighs 65 pounds!
Danny had them up for sale for a while at $40K. I think he's stuck with them. ;D
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Speakers cost not related, can be all over the map as to what they can do sonically. I have felt sorry for a few gents who laid down serious coin just to get some nice looking furniture that really wasn't impressive otherwise. Price is no guarantee of quality. It's not fair.
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I think Matt has the idea... Build your own. There is nothing to these speakers these days. Its all crap. The crossovers.. forget about it! What I did, even back in the mid 70's, is have a cabinet maker build the cabinets. I built the crossover and installed the whole thing. In the day it was a "Speakerlab". You can MUCH better today with drivers right off Parts Express, and crossover components from Madison Sound or PartsConnection etc.
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FWIW, I don't think it's possible to sell a complete speaker in a store for less than 10 times the cost of the drivers plus crossover. At least, not if you hope to stay in business.
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I'm going to admit up front that I didn't read all the posts. I read the OP and then marked it unread till I had time to form a response.
I will go with "it is a planar sound thing." I sold Magnepan/Magneplanars in the 70s. I own Servo Statik-I Electrostatics, broken of course, but still have them. So they impressed you and should have for the reasons you stated. You like the strengths of Planar speakers.
There is something to the planar sound. They have great dynamics, detail and wide deep imaging/soundstage. Most dynamic speakers don't do that, or do it easily. It is an "effortless" sound from planars. Then there is the power requirements. Electrostatics need a big voltage swing, little current. The Magnetic Planar speakers need a lot of current. Well, you don't get anything for free.
It takes a lot of design, engineering and trial and error to make a box speaker not "boxy." I have owned a few. Heard a few more. But most box speakers sound boxy to me. And once you hear it you are no longer a virgin. You can't go back.
Have you heard the Blumenstein speakers? The box is minimal, the imaging and soundstage are right up there with a planar speaker. If not, where are you? (You have probably posted your location but I'm old and I forget what I had for breakfast yesterday) They have the immediacy, intimacy, dynamics, imaging/soundstage that you have heard in planars. Not to mention, I have mine aimed straight ahead. When I have guests I often sit a foot or two to the outside of one speaker or another. I hear amazing soundstage in a position that any other box speaker I have owned would collapse to mono. If I were you I would go with 30 day return offered by Clark and Molly. Go for the big subs/amps and Orcas.
As for the Madisound kit, we are back at you are no longer a virgin. You have tasted the Planar sound and I doubt that it will deliver it. I may be wrong, and have been too often in my life.
Ok, I jumped all around but I think I covered the first post. Now I will go back and read all the other comments.
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Grainger,
You answered my questions and then some! Thanks a ton. And I would love to take you up on your offer, but I am up in the wilds of Connecticut, so not close to anywhere except maybe Boston.
The Orcas definitely have my attention. If I can find the time to finish my S.E.X., I will likely take your advice. I might still wind up building a speaker kit just for the fun of it, but the Orcas would fit perfectly in my bedroom with the S.E.X....
Best,
Adam
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Drive, Fly, I'll feed you steak and Bourbon. I get out of my contract the end of this month and will be off for 4-8 weeks. Offer stands.
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One more note: thanks for pointing out the ability to mark posts "unread"! I've been longing for something like that, and I never realized it was right in front of me! [forehead slap]
Best regards,
Adam
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Oooohhh. SEX in the bedroom 8)
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Drive, Fly, I'll feed you steak and Bourbon. I get out of my contract the end of this month and will be off for 4-8 weeks. Offer stands.
Ok - everyone meet at Granger's! Now that would be a time!
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I actually think that would be a ton of fun. One of these days we'll have to get together...
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Hi Adam:
If you want to hear OBs without traveling too far, you are welcome to hear mine. I'm about 10 miles south of Hartford, not far from I-91.
Of course I'm biased but I think my OBs sound pretty good. ;)
Gerry
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi27.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc157%2Fgerrye123%2Fsystem1_zpsf3d56240.jpg&hash=b0eda924ebc6b382de4b49f505e9c21ae52733c3)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi27.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc157%2Fgerrye123%2Fsystem3_zpsf34f1168.jpg&hash=fd52aaccfd4e1d2c6f80bfe5a1c29d8eaf8bdbbf)
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See, ... thats where my insecurities start coming out! When I think about other people whose experience/judgement I actually respect. What if the dont like the sound of my years of endless tweaks? One of those... Yea, thats good..... can you turn it down a little?... I dont think that would happen. Its just an irrational fear. One of many I'm afraid.... (Greg.. dont start!).
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And local or local enough Audio clubs.. When I moved to Orlando, I found and attended the monthly Space Coast Audio Society meetings.. It was great and heard loads of stuff. 1 one of the guys was a dealer, so it was extra great.. New stuff all the time...
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You will never know if you like a speaker until you hear it and even then, long term listening may change your mind. I recently went to Lone Star Audio Fest in Dallas and was able to hear 20 -30 different speakers in a few hours. Surprisingly, speaker type didn't predict good sound. Some box speakers had a nice wide open sound. As for building speakers, the actual driver is critical to the sound. I built some Basszilla spkrs and was underimpressed and it took several hot summer months to build them. Then I tried a cheaper single driver (Fostex FE206e) in a simple piece of MDF (took abt an hour) and liked it better. So no simple answers. When you find a speaker you like, spend the time on the rest of the gear and enjoy.
I have been enjoying my current home made open baffles speakers for a couple of years, but I get worried that I am not hearing correctly or some such. So I recently bought a pair of Maggie 1.7s and an Emotiva XPA2 amp and spent a month comparing them to my Paramount/open baffles. Both sound nice - large open sound, but I have finally settled on sticking with my old system. The Maggies give me a very accurate view of the artist in the recording venue, complete with hall sounds where recorded - my old system doesn't give me all the hall sounds and spatial cues, but it places the performers in my room, a view I prefer. But the only way I could find this out was to pony up the dough and try them out long term at home. Hopefully I'll recoup most of my costs when I resale them. I look on the loss as rent for toys. Do you live where you can hear systems at friends? Join a club. I started a club in Michigan at one time just to do this and it worked out great - grew to over 20 members before I moved back to Louisiana. Unfortunately in NE Louisiana I have only 2 friends who are into audio and no stores, so I have to spend money to meet my goals. I am going to RMAF in October as one of my few ways to hear new things.
Again, you cannot know what it sounds like and if you like it until YOU hear it.
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Thanks glynnw - interesting post, and observations... I have to go to some shows and "network". I'll be part time soon. Some flexibility!
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I'm not jealous, as I have been fortunate enough to done as much as I have in audio. Having said that, I have never attended an audio fest. THAT is the one thing left on the list, and Denver is within reach. Unfortunately, this is my year to have some medical issues and pay them off, so the list waits.
Eric, there is SO much more to audio than changing little caps! I'm putting you on the BOSE mailing list as punishment.
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Ohh!... you should talk Greg! --- with all your cute little shiny nobs and all! At least I do the "manly" stuff! ;D
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OUCH! Maan, well now you've done it. I have to call my entire team of psychiatrists and schedule a few sessions. Thanks a lot, EARIC.
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Speakers are the most challenging thing in audio. Everyone has a different opinion. There are always compromises to be made. Personal preferences and just how much space you have.
I always liked the "flat response" thing. Everyone designs for a flat response. What if your ears aren't flat? The older you get the less you hear.
What sounds good to a guy that worked all his life in a manufacturing plant may well be a bit bright to his teenage daughter.
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In the past 1.5 years i have purchased 5 new pairs of speakers: 3 pairs of salk (internet direct company), 2 used and one new. A pair of active a5 for my computer and then a set of orcas. I have settled with 2 sets, a main system, Salk SS8's that is probably 15 times more expensive than my desktop system of Orcas and no sub powered by a sex amp. I'll go days ( not often) without listening to my main system. My orcas are a really fun engaging sound, not a ton air moving from them but you feel it emotionally not physically like with a bigger box speaker. Similar to a headphone or a maggie. When i built a crack and got headphones i had to learn to love the headphone. I was used to the physical feeling of a bigger speaker. When i sit down in front of the main system i'm blown away, but its more of a commitment, it's "better" and fuller and amazing sounding... but as fun? not really, it's serious not fun. I spend more hours listening to the orcas with the sex.
i recently went to the SF audio show and honestly was really unimpressed with most the set ups that were on the expensive to really expensive side. Sure its probably because very few people had any treatments in the room. Its harder to demo speakers for a lot of the internet direct speaker companies but the pay off is greater. i purchased all of my speakers without hearing any of them. i know not recommended but there are some great resources to research, and to find local owners that will demo speakers for you. With all that said, i highly recommend the orcas and maybe another pair of box speakers. you will find things you like in both and those things will change over time.
good luck
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Well said Guf... The 'fun' aspect is so important IMO. The sound cannot be just "technically" good. You know, clean, large stage, quick with good extension, bla bla bla... It has to have 'soul'. I have not heard anything except for tubes that can do that. Period. Speakers are of course a very important piece, but they cant do it all.
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Guf,
Thanks for the mention! Indeed, its been the hardest quest of all, taken by far the longest of all initiatives, to engineer "fun" into the sound. I'm glad I was a music history major and not an E.E. (for me personally, because I was able to self teach most of the engineering I've needed as I've gone along, and learn the rest by proxy to talented people who were willing to teach).
Our qust with the company is to make HiFi culturally relevant again. And it has proven to be a much more fulfilling pursuit than to just try to make our graphs wart free. Additionally, we are after as practical of a package (and price) as possible in the Orcas and accesories. The tough part these last few months (paradoxically, because you'd normally think that when you just spend more, you'd get more) has been trying to get that same sound into our upcoming larger and more expensive speaker model releases. But we are close... very close... to realizing that goal!
Cheers!
-Clark
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Now Clark, I'm an EE but didn't have to go to school to know what fun is or sounds like! Well, maybe I learned when I got my Psychology degree?
And the Orcas are fun!
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Grainger,
Actually, I did have to go to school to learn what "fun" is in music. Paradoxicaly, I started this quest from a very analytical perspective. My dad is a biostatistician, I aced my SAT's, and I was president of the math club in high school, etc. etc.
So when I met Terry Cain, he told me - "dude, you've got to balance out your talents...you really should consider learning about music from music's viewpoint rather than learning music from an acoustical science's standpoint purely."
Boy, am I glad that I balanced out my math heavy upbringing with an music degree. Of course, I still did alot better on my music theory than on my piano performance, but still... so important to have a balanced mind in any pursuit. Terry was the only guy with the gumption to tell me how warped my perspective was.
Surely, we've all got strengths and weaknesses. part of what makes life interesting.
Cheers,
Clark
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You should have been a teenager in the 60s.
My wife and I had dinner with Terry and his wife at the 1003 2003 VSAC. He warmed up after a few minutes and it is a memory I will cherish.
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"My wife and I had dinner with Terry and his wife at the 1003 VSAC."....... My Gaawwddd man, you are an old mofo....... 8) couldnt let that one slide.......
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My profile says "Old Fart", what more do I need to explain it???
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Explain how you attended the 1003 VSAC... ??? :)
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He was there in spirit.
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That is what I get for typing in the dark at 6:00 AM.
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Haha, that is why I was saying you were old... you were there a thousand years ago... your stamina is incredibly impressive... :)
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Ah, HA! But maybe I would be wiser?
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You made this far sir, what's wisdom got to do with it? 'That's a joke son. I say-I say, the boy don't have too much cookin' in the kitchen, if you get mah drift.' When I die, maybe I'll come back as Foghorn Leghorn.
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Loved Foghorn Leghorn! My last boss at K-C was from Coosa Pines Alabama. He was the human incarnation of Foghorn Leghorn.
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"Did you say KFC? Whuy, that's treason sur!"
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"I number all of my feathers for just such an occasion." Name that reference. Hint, it has something to do with Johnny Cash.