Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Crack => Topic started by: mchuckp on January 14, 2024, 07:41:32 AM
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I completed my Crack build a little over a week ago and everything checked out and I have been using it w out a problem every day for many hours. I just started the Speedball upgrade. I installed the small circuit board as instructed and got the voltages below.
OA: 103 then a recheck after a few minutes of 99. Few min after that it was 98.
IA: 167
BAB:0
IB: 167
OB: 85
The manual says that OA should be 60-90 +/-10% which would be 99 max. It did get down there after being on several minutes. All the LEDs are lit and the tubes glow. I followed the flow chart and checked R1 and got 167. I was confused on what I should see here. I also checked pins A2 & A7 on the 9 pin tube socket and got zero.
Based on these voltages, is everything ok with OA or should I check something else?
Thanks,
Mike
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Can you post a photo of the board as you have it built?
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Can you post a photo of the board as you have it built?
Thanks. Let me know if this is the right angle.
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Here's another....
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I would reheat the joints on Q1 and Q2 on the offending side of the PC board just to be sure. On Q1 specifically, I can see on the top side that the solder hasn't been adequately heated.
If the solder joint on A5 isn't 100% solid, that could also produce the problem you're experiencing.
If both of these efforts don't result in a downward migration of voltage, you can continue with the rest of the Speedball upgrade, but it's certainly something to keep an eye on.
I do not see a difference in the R1 resistor color codes, so I suspect they are OK.
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I would reheat the joints on Q1 and Q2 on the offending side of the PC board just to be sure. On Q1 specifically, I can see on the top side that the solder hasn't been adequately heated.
If the solder joint on A5 isn't 100% solid, that could also produce the problem you're experiencing.
If both of these efforts don't result in a downward migration of voltage, you can continue with the rest of the Speedball upgrade, but it's certainly something to keep an eye on.
I do not see a difference in the R1 resistor color codes, so I suspect they are OK.
Thanks Paul. Just to make sure I'm 100% clear, you are referring to where the PN2907A transistors go at Q1A and Q1B, correct?
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You need to resolder the joints for the MJE350 and PN2907 on that side.
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You need to resolder the joints for the MJE350 and PN2907 on that side.
Paul,
I resoldered parts several times and it doesn't seem to be helping too much. Currently I am getting:
OA: 96.5
IA:169.4
BAB: 0
IB: 169.7
OB: 82.7
That being said, when I first turn the amp on and check it the values are a little higher and then they start to drift a bit. Ex. My QA was around 101 when I first turned it on. It slowly dropped to 96.5 over maybe 5-10 min. My OB started around 85 and dropped to the 82.7.
I'm attaching some more pix of my soldering job top and bottom side if you see anything that stands out and have anything else for me to check.
Couple questions:
1. Is the drift I see normal?
2. Could have I damaged a part (or got a bad part)?
3. Should OA and OB read about the same?
4. Based on my pix, anything else I should try again? Would it help to add solder from the top side too?
5. What is the potential consequences of leaving it alone?
Thanks!
Mike
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Adding solder from the other side of the board isn't helpful. What was required is holding the iron on the solder joints on the bottom side of the board until it flows through to the other side.
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Paul,
Took me a bit to get back to this. I spent today desoldering the black resistors and putting on new solder trying to be sure I got adequate heat and flow. During the process, I broke 4 out of 5 of the red/black/white wires coming from the terminal strip they are attached to just from bending back and forth. So I de-soldered those and replaced the wires. Mounted everything back on the screws and tested again. Unfortunately my results aren't much different.
OA: 98.5 (if I wait 10 min it goes to 95).
IA: 172
BAB: 0
IB: 172
OB: 82
Anything else I should try? Am I really this bad at soldering those black resistors? Is it accurate that I should get the same value if I check the DC at 1U (Terminal strip) that leads to OA? I did. I also confirmed that pins A2 and A7 on the tube socket read 0. Any reason to think a tube is causing this? Should I check something else? Redo something again? Or accept the results and finish the build?
Thanks,
Mike
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Can you carefully measure the DC voltages at A3 and A8?
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Can you carefully measure the DC voltages at A3 and A8?
I am getting 1.5 for both of them. The LEDs are lit up.
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I'd be inclined to just run it and not worry too much. I suspect a different 12AU7 may pull those values down slightly, but it's not the end of the world.
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Paul,
Well my saga has not ended with the speedball upgrade. I followed your advice and went on with the build as you suggested above. I just completed the rest of it. I tested the resistance at OA and OB and my meter kept going to "1" so it was off the scale of my meter. Per your instructions, I moved on to check the voltage and they were all well above the range you provided.
OA=253
OB=269
G=0
B+=413
All LEDs were lit.
Are these high numbers a result of the high readings I got on the first board or caused by something different? Something I should check or go with it?
Frustrated,
Mike
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The 413V at B+ means that you have a black wire in your amp that's not well soldered. The most common cause for this exact issue is the two black wires that meet at the headphone jack, and we will often find that one there is not captured by solder.
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Paul,
I inspected all the black wires in the kit. The only one that appeared to be suspect to me was at 12U where you connect the black lead for the testing. I de-soldered it and soldered it again. I then tested and got the same 413 at B+. I thought my connection at the headphone jack looked good but since you said that is a common problem I did the same for that one. Still getting 413.
Not sure how I screwed up this amp so much during the speedball install. My base Crack went well and all my tests checked and I used it for several weeks without issue. Since then, I've had high readings on the first board for which I redid some solders and nothing changed. You said just to move on. Then the second board I'm getting high readings here too.
If you feel these are still issues with black wires, I guess I'll have to go back in and solder them again in hopes that maybe something may look decent but isn't. If you have any other suggestions to look at or if any pix you think would be helpful, I can try and get some good angles.
Thanks,
Mike
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The kit doesn't put out 413V. You are observing this because you have a loose or poorly soldered ground in the amp. I would reheat all the solder joints in the amp where black wires land other than the center of the 9 pin socket and the power switch/IEC entry module.
We have observed this exact issue many, many times in the past, it is a loose or unsoldered black wire. This has nothing to do with the Speedball itself; it's a problem with the underlying build.
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Paul,
I spent the morning gong through every black wire connection as you suggested. I ended up de-soldering and re-soldering most of them with a solder sucker and/or wick to make sure they were good and clean. As you know, a few of them are hard to get to so I did my best. I would do a few then check with a meter. Well, after all that nothing changed other than it dropped from 413 to 406 at B+.
At this point, I guess I will set it aside and pick it back up as a new project taking it apart and building it again (other than the boards) with all new wire to make sure I have really good connections when I can get other wires/components out of the way.
Unless you have something to check, I guess this is my plan.
Thanks,
Mike
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Post build photos, especially of the black wires around the headphone jack, the black wires at terminal 3, and the power supply area built around the power transformer.
The power supply doesn't make 400V DC, so what you're seeing is high resistance in the ground path throwing things way out of whack and making it look that way.
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Paul,
Here is a link to a bunch of photos. If I'm not getting a good angle, need better lighting, or something else, let me know. I can post them directly to this thread if you like but this was way easier.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/cDxnEZA1XV9H1DL3A
Thanks!
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I would suggest clipping your black meter probe to the chassis, then measure the DC voltage at terminal 3, then terminal 12, then terminal 14, then terminal 20. These should all be 0V like terminal 3, but one of them is likely to show some weird high voltage, and then you know that on one end (or both) of that wire, you have your issue.
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Well the saga continues.... I check all of those spots with the black lead of the meter on the chassis. I got 0 for all of them. I moved the red lead around at that joint to different spots and also checked the lower one just in case something lit up but nothing.
While I had it grounded to the chassis I checked OA, OB, B+, & G on the circuit board. G was 0 and the other three were "1" meaning off the charts. Is this a clue to anything or what you would expect?
Also, just to be 100% sure that I'm reading my meter correctly, when I get the 400ish reading on B+ it is on "ACV" and set to 600. So that would be 400, correct?
Thanks,
Mike
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There's at least part of your problem. You measure DC Volts on the DCV setting, not ACV.
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Well geez...I feel stupid. Can't believe I wasted your time plus my time re-soldering all that stuff. Sorry man! I'm working on another project that had some recent testing in AC and guessing that was on my brain. Sorry again.
Anyway, I went ahead and retested both boards with the black lead of the meter at 12U. As you'll see my B+ now checks out. However my "O"s on each board still come out high and mismatched to each other. Should I check anything concerning these or go with it?
Here are my results.
1st Board:
OA=92
OB=81
IA=185
IB=185
BAB=0
2nd Board:
OA=116
OB=122
G=0
B+=185
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Oh that's totally reasonable. With a tube gainstage like this, you can get those plate voltages to match each other if you use a cathode bias resistor and resistor plate load. As you add a CCS like the Speedball, then the plate voltages will start to wander a bit more, and if the cathode bias resistor is replaced with an LED, that further allows the plate voltages to wander more than expected. In the Crack with the Speedball, the correct currents will be nailed down no matter what, so 10V of mismatch is not a problem.
-PB
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Paul,
I got the amp up and running. Sounds great! However, I am getting some sounds in the right channel that come and go and mainly heard when music isn't playing or a song is fading out with low volume. I'm assuming this is what is called microphonics? Changes pitch and comes and go. I don't hear any hum, buzz, or anything like that. When there is sounds like this, is it a tube? If so, is it usually the power tube or input tube?
Thanks.
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You could give this a try:
https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=11676.0 (https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=11676.0)
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Thanks. Just read the whole thread. Seems I might as well do it no matter what.
BTW, after reading your response, I took my high quality power cleaner from my main speaker rig and put it on my headphone rig. It has been 99% dead silent. I heard an ever so slight noise one time in about an hour of listening that was barely detectable inbetween tracks. So it is definitely noise from my line. I also notice my sound is much "blacker". I must have some dirty power. I'm convinced this started happening when we had a radon abatement system installed.
Anyway, I'll likely just leave this power cleaner on my can set up but still go ahead and do your mod.
Thanks for pointing that out.