Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Digital => Topic started by: Natural Sound on February 07, 2012, 02:10:39 PM
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I'm real interested in building a music server for my lossless music files. I'm seriously considering a MAC Mini for the job. If anyone has information that can get me started please post it here. I'd be interested in hearing about hardware, software, modifications, compatible DAC's and the best lossless formats. And of course, how it integrates into your Bottlehead gear.
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For software Amarra is great. I'm using an older Intel Core Duo Mini that has has a processor upgrade to something like 2GHz. It's limited to 2GB of RAM, which is not really enough for the best performance, as Amarra and Itunes running together really gobble it up. A later Mini that can handle more RAM would probably be more suitable. I don't use lossless compression because the difference in quality compared to AIFF or WAV is very obvious in my setup. External drives are cheap enough that I feel I can justify storage in the larger file size.
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OK, not trying to hijack your thread, but I have questions too. Is the music server for convenience only? I can't see how it could change the current sound quality of my cd's? Plus, the thought of adding all my cd's to another computer is not appealing to me. Do I have to buy my favorite albums again from one of the online sellers offering higher quality recordings? How close are those higher quality recordings to vinyl? I'll be watching this thread close. Thanks.
Pfenning
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I have all my music saved as flac, and use a squeezebox. I do not let the player decode the flac files. I do the decoding on my computer first. This seems to make a noticeable improvement in sound quality. If I were to guess I would think that it has to do with the additional processing required by the computer to convert a lossless file that is effecting sound quality.
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If your running OSX for software I strongly recommend you look at using BitPerfect which is found on the Mac App Store. It's only $4.99 and made a considerable improvement with my DAC performance, especially with the new version 1.0 which has been noticeably better and has a bunch of ways to tweak how you send the audio signal through the computer.
For me, its a must try.
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I thought AIFF and WAV were lossless. I use apple lossless in itunes and they sound as good as the CD as far as I can tell. Of course higher resolution files will sound better than CD's limited 16 bit format. But apple lossless is clearly superior to any compressed songs. Good vinyl on a good table still kicks ass though. :)
I've read that the Mac Mini makes a great music server. And if you have an ipod touch, ipad, or iphone you can get a remote app that allows you full control of your music library.
There's a company that sells slightly modified (warranty intact) mac minis as music servers.
www.mach2music.com (http://www.mach2music.com) They can also upgrade a currently owned 2010-2011 mac mini. I want to get one but the price is a bit over my typical allowance for such things. I'll probably do it in steps.
I would also disagree that a digital signal is a digital signal and that's it. Stereophile debunked that over a decade ago.
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I think what Doc was saying about lossless compression was that he chooses not to allow any compression when creating lossless files. You can, for example, utilize some file compression without loss. FLAC, for example, allows you to choose some compression if you want it. When playing the computer/decoder will have to uncompress the file, but there is enough information there to restore it to its original form.
Lossy compression takes compression to the point that perfect restoration is no longer possible. Some parts are intentionally left out to get the smallest file size.
Also, my understanding about the Mac Minis is that they are loved for their quiet operation. I use a standard PC tower and the fan was so loud that I ended up moving it to another room.
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Sorry to clarify, you are saying that raw uncompressed files and something like apple lossless (i also use), have the potential to sound the same using the SAME playback equipment?
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Yes, lossless means that the bits received by the digital to analog conversion process will be the exact same bits that were in the uncompressed file. Lossless refers to the algorithm [the math] used to go from original to compressed to original ... no loss, same bits. The advantage is smaller file ... the cost is more processing, but even stoneage cpu's chuckle about the workload involved in going back and forth.
Sorry to clarify, you are saying that raw uncompressed files and something like apple lossless (i also use), have the potential to sound the same using the playback equipment?
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How does lossless compression change the quality when the name implies that literally there is no loss? If there is a difference that's not placebo, it sounds like a faulty software decoder, to me.
I have to admit, "Lossless Compression" is an oxymoron. But the marketing guys get to call it whatever they want. Obviously if the data is compressed something is lost. 128 is not equal to 64, even a fifth grader knows that, I hope!
Still the marketing guys are to blame, not the engineers.
For the OP, I have a buddy who is running a music server on a Mac Mini. I will email him and point him to this thread. I have heard the system and it sounds good. Not the best I have ever heard, that is reserved to some over $100,000 systems I have heard, but I relaxed and listened to his system for hours.
Edit: I contacted him we will see if I can lure him here.
Now I have the analogy of Winzip I see that there can be compression without data loss. I'm not stupid just ignorant of some computer related functions.
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I have to admit, "Lossless Compression" is an oxymoron.
No, it is not an oxymoron, IF the data that is being compressed out is redundant AND the results of the decompressed file is indential to the orignal uncompresed file. The bit stream can, and has, been compared between the source data and FLAC compressed/decompressed data. The numbers in are the same as as the numbers out. No loss = "lossless".
I can write
"222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222"
or I can write
"2 sixty times"
or
"2 60x"
Some versions take up less space but all translate to the same thing. Same information is stored in less space.
I am NOT saying that in real world FLAC encode/decode will always sound the same as the orginal, but the difference points to an error in the system somewhere.
Kevin R-M
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I have one of the Mach2 Mac Minis. Love it. I went with battery powered option, and recently added the Pi Audio Battery Buss. Was so impressed with the Battery Buss I just ordered an Uber Buss (for the AC powered stuff).
I have both Amarra and Pure Music. They both sound wonderful, but I prefer the Amarra. My Mini is controlled with an iPad and I don't even have a monitor or mouse/keyboard connected. I use iTap VNC on the iPad to connect to the Mach2 via Wlan and it works very well. I had a boatload of FLAC material on various drives, but used XLD to convert everything to AIFF to store on my music storage drive. Adding new music is super easy too. If I have it on a USB drive, I simply plug it into the Mach2 and open XLD and save it to the storage drive. Ripping CDs is stupid simple too, but because I don't leave the optical drive connected to the Mach2, I have to drag it out and plug it in. The drive is setup to automatically rip the CD into storage drive.
Early on, after I got the music server working properly I compared it to my Oppo 83SE NuForce modded player and it was really no contest. Music player killed the Oppo in every aspect. Add in the convience factor of never having to dick around with CDs again makes this something I could have only dreamed of 10 years ago.
Tick
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Tim, we really try hard to be supportive in this community. I think you have spent time acquiring a good base of knowledge worth sharing. But your posts are unnecessarily aggressive, and it has come to my attention that they are turning a lot of people off. That may be the effect you wish to achieve or it may be unintentional. Regardless, I would appreciate your toning down the intolerant nature of your writing.
A good friend of mine once told me "When I was young I had all the answers. As I got older I found out there were a lot more questions."
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... I'm just saying that it means something in the playing software chain MUST be broken for this to happen.
Given the widespread observations by many whose ears are really good, I think that must be the case.
It does not, unfortunately, follow that anybody actually knows what that something is.
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I agress and it sounds like it could be codec issue.
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I'm real interested in building a music server for my lossless music files. I'm seriously considering a MAC Mini for the job. If anyone has information that can get me started please post it here. I'd be interested in hearing about hardware, software, modifications, compatible DAC's and the best lossless formats. And of course, how it integrates into your Bottlehead gear.
I bought a new mini few months ago and have slowly been converting it to a music server. Once I get a next generation of iMac, is when it becomes a fully dedicated server--about the time I finish my Paramount's, Foreplay III, and soon to be purchased Eros. I bought it with Lion, and a 500 Gb HD. I took it down to the local Apple vendor and they slapped a 64 Gb SSD in it for $140 or so and I use the 500 Gb as my secondary drive for music. I am running Amarra, and am slow disabling certain apps/utilities in the OS, etc. Per the suggestions here I downloaded demos of PureMusic, Amarra, Audvara, etc., and came away preferring the sound of Amarra.
I convert everything to AIFF. Amarra will take FLAC files/folders and do it for you. In fact, last night I downloaded about 12 Gb of free FLAC24 audio and converted all of them to AIFF with Amarra. I may be wrong, but logically it seems that playing FLAC or any compressed file will put extra demands on the CPU since they must be decompressed. I have not run into any problems running Amarra with Lion, and using Bottlehead components. Initially, they were saying that Lion was a less superior audio wise but I have not noticed any difference. I use the optical output of the mini and was using a Firewire DAC for awhile to connect to my DAC.
For comparison, I have a CD player hooked-up to the mini system. When I do not pass the audio through the Amarra there is a profound difference in audio quality. Bottom line, the mini system is far superior to the CD player.
I also have 4-backup drives to store all of my audio files on. Another option is that you can hook-up one of your audio hard drives to Airport Extreme, and the audio can then be played on any computer through out the house.
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In fact, last night I downloaded about 12 Gb of free FLAC24 audio and converted all of them to AIFF with Amarra.
Not to spin this thread off in even another direction, but I'd be interested in where you were able to download 12GB of free FLAC24 files and what genre of music it is.
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Hi, I am the guy Grainger49 (there is only one) posted about earlier on. I assume this thread is still about Mac Mini use and hasn't gotten completely off topic.
I picked up a very used 1.5 GHz Intel Core Solo in trade for a MacBook that had suffered some form of breakage on every piece of plastic on it. This MacBook was owned by my son who is eminently qualified to be the stunt double for the gorilla on the old Samsonite commercial, but I digress. Maxed out the memory to 2 GiB, which is just enough to run Pure Music memory play properly. Although I use the Mac for playback, I typically control it using UltraVNC on my Windows 7 notebook.
My music is typically ripped WAV or downloaded FLAC files which I then convert to Apple Lossless before storing on a Buffalo TeraStation NAS, also picked up used off of Craigslist, then upgraded with bigger drives. The Mac and the Terastation are both hardwired to the home network. I use a 6 inch generic USB cable from the Mac to a Wavelength Brick V1. I am fond of the NOS sound (used to own an Ack! DAC), but will probably give in and upgrade the DAC to v3 eventually. Amplification is a Red Wine Audio Signature 30 via Kimber 8VS to vintage Spendor SP-1 loudspeakers. Sorry, no tubes except for the Brick. I am looking for an LFD Mistral if anyone here happens to have one they would consider selling
This approach, which has been put together over a couple of years without benefit of any homologation, has resulted in sound that my golden eared purist friend thinks doesn't sound bad at all. YMMV. My musical taste runs the gamut, so not limited to small ensembles or "audiophile approved" recordings. As they say, hope this helps.
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Ok, Doug's quote, "Doesn't suck at all" isn't what I said and that is why he didn't put quotes around it.
I might have heard three server systems and Doug's is the best. We all but lulled ourselves to sleep relaxing and listening.
And welcome to the forum.
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Not to spin this thread off in even another direction, but I'd be interested in where you were able to download 12GB of free FLAC24 files and what genre of music it is.
The wife financed some B&W CM1's for my computer set-up (my workstation is in a 250 sq ft room) for my birthday last month. When I registered the B&W speakers they said I could download up to three albums at their site. Since I registered both speakers, then I assumed that I was going to get six downloads. The downloads started crapping out after x-number and so I went into the "Settings" of their download manager and increased my download disk space size from 5 Gb to 20 Gb, and started downloading like a maniac. I was able to download everything that struck my fancy, and did. The only stuff I liked was the classical. They had the new Thomas Dolby and I did not like it at all, and there were a few other "pop" artists that were equally as bad in my opinion. But, you can't go wrong with Beethoven, Debussy, Handel, Mozart, etc.
In the past companies like Mercedes-Benz, Audi, etc. would make available free music. The like to show off their quality audio systems. It is a hit-or-miss thing, sometimes you get some great stuff and other times it just plain old sucks.
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I have been doing this computer music server thing for many years now and out of windows, linux and Apple, the apple mini is by far the best, and can be taken up several notches with the Mach2 mods, external FW storage (unless the dac is FW, then you should use usb or thunderbolt storage). I use puremusic myself but will try Amarra soon, though PM still seems to be the most stable of the two.
Tim R. -- bits are not bits even though they are supposed to be, and yes, extra processing inside the machine does effect sound quality negatively and your assertionss about jitter as well as many other things seem to be based on heresay rather than real world experience, and any c ompetent digital systems engineer will tell you that it is impossible to eliminate jitter, never mind that there are different kinds of jitter, some of which are inaudible and others of which, even in small amunts are very audible.
And no, it's not the codecs that are creating the problem, though it may in part be one part of the puzzle, but electrical noise, power suplies, etc. are critical in digital audio, which is no9t the same as digital data transmission.
You say you never could afford a mini and thus I'm assuming you've never played with one, tried different settings, software, dacs, etc. with it, but the mac mini -- not a macbook, Pro, iMac or whatever, is anything near the audio performance of the mini, and neither is a stripped down single board linux computer or windows with XP or Vista -- though some are getting results close to or equal to the mini with some combinations of win7, playback software and dacs. So again, your assertion that the mini would, or should be the worst platform is completely unfounded and just plain wrong.
And before you ask, aside ffrom experimexperimenting with probably 25 different dacs, 45 or 6 computer platforms, various connections from spdif to usb to firewire, and many different software solutions, I am an EE/CE by training and did my graduate work in computer and cognitive science, so my background, aside from my 40 years of audio experience is earned, and I'm still elearning every day ss it seems the rest of the world is as well, especially when it comes to digital audio. And no, I absolutely do not it all, in fact I consider myself still pretty green in many ways, experience aside.
Now... to the original OP, a very good place to start with a mac mini is with a stock machine -- the most basic 2.3 ghz 2011 or a 2010 is just fine. Max out the memory to 8gb -- cheap and very much worth it (but don't buy the memory from Apple, buy it and install it yourself -- I'm totally blind and did it in under 2 minutes), buy a third party SSD of 40 to 60 gb (vertex and Crucial are good choices), turn off a bunch of unnecessary features and services (there are many onlie guides on what and how to do this), and then assuming you would be using a usb to spdif converter or usb dac, get something like the 1 tb Oyen Digital MiniPro FW800 portable drive for music storage (or something similar that uses the Oxford fw chipset), rip tunes to AIFF using XLD -- even better than iTunes with error correction enabled, but a PITA to setup for the first time). Then pick a software package you like -- Pure Music, Amarra, iTunes with BitPerf.app, Decibel, Audirvana or the Plus version, and have at it. Also try to turn off as many unneeded interfaces as possible -- ir receiver, ethernet if you don't need a network connection, blue tooth for sure, and wireless lan if also not needed, and experiment with the polarity of the power cord for the sound you want -- in one orientation it's more warm and in the other, more bright.
I use mine with a wired usb keyboard and a headphone extension cable so I can use the speech system in macs -- VoiceOver) to navigate my way arund the machine, but PureMusic also lets you use the iTunes remottte app on an iPhone/iPad/iPod touch if you so desire, but you will havve to have either the ethernet or wireless enabled for that to work.
That should get you going, and will give you sonics equal to or better than some veryhigh-end CDPs, and in fact, my experience has been that an accurately ripped CD, played from memory through a good dac will sound noticeably better than extreme CD players. I used to own an Audio Aero Capitole 24/192 Mk.II SE and the information that I can get out of a standard redbook cd with my mac mini rig isfar superior -- in fact, most people can hardly believe how much information there really is on a standard 16/44.1 CD.
Hope this helps -- this is what I use in 2 of my 3 systems, thought the reference system does use a DC modified Mach2 server with a Pi battery buss, which BTW, just takes the whole thing into a whole new realm, and this week I'll add dc power to the external firewire drive (another large improvement) and a specially built firewire cable with the power legs removed -- again, isolating the computer noise from the storage subsystem and dac as much as possible. Admittedly this is a system that is a bit oveer the top but it is far better than any digital I've heard anywhere, and I've heard many of the best of the best as I have some local friends who are super high end dealers.
Good luck, and yes, I whole heartedly recommend the mac mini over pretty mucch anything else at this point.
Also apologize for the myriad typos -- my keyboard is getting old and my screen reader is not letting me review my writing.
-- Jim
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Good luck, and yes, I whole heartedly recommend the mac mini over pretty mucch anything else at this point.
I second that. You can get a new Mac Mini for about $570. The advantage of a new one is that you can have two internal hard drives. With the older ones you can pull the "Superdrive" and use a kit to install a second drive, but I have read of issues in trying to use an SSD as a boot drive in the older mini's.
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Now... to the original OP, a very good place to start with a mac mini is with a stock machine -- the most basic 2.3 ghz 2011 or a 2010 is just fine. Max out the memory to 8gb..., buy a third party SSD of 40 to 60 gb..., turn off a bunch of unnecessary features and services..., and then assuming you would be using a usb to spdif converter or usb dac, get something like the 1 tb Oyen Digital MiniPro FW800 portable drive for music storage..., rip tunes to AIFF....
I bought a 2008 used MacMini with an SSD hard drive. I added a 1 TB Oyen FW800 portable drive and ripped my CDs in AIFF (easy to hear the difference on my system...did several A/B tests and always preferred AIFF).
I used Decibel for playback via USB to my DAC until recently (now I've got an ethernet connection via a Bolder Cable Co modified Squeezebox Touch).
This all proved very economical and the sound quality was tremendous. It can be improved and I've taken some of those steps based on the advice of folks whom I trust...the setup can really grow to new levels as one is able to spend additional dollars.
I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a Mac Mini with the basic steps taken.
John
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Actually, I use only the single SSD in the mini and it is a boot drive, and I have many many friends who also use this setup and nobody has ever reported a problem with an SSD as a boot drive. In fact, the fewer power consuming parts you have in the mini, the better. Not saying that 2 HDs inonne mini won't work, but the less you have in the mini, especially traditional HDs with spinning mmotors, etc., the better the final sound.
Even in the fully maxed out mini that has been stripped down from OS to hardware, doing something like turning off the dithered volume control, whether you're using it or not, makes a clearly audible differentce (PureMusic) Anything that consumes more power or adds processing overhead degrades the sound just that much more.
-- Jim
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Actually, I use only the single SSD in the mini and it is a boot drive, and I have many many friends who also use this setup and nobody has ever reported a problem with an SSD as a boot drive. In fact, the fewer power consuming parts you have in the mini, the better. Not saying that 2 HDs inonne mini won't work, but the less you have in the mini, especially traditional HDs with spinning mmotors, etc., the better the final sound.
Even in the fully maxed out mini that has been stripped down from OS to hardware, doing something like turning off the dithered volume control, whether you're using it or not, makes a clearly audible differentce (PureMusic) Anything that consumes more power or adds processing overhead degrades the sound just that much more.
-- Jim
Hi Jim,
I'm not sure who you are speaking to on the two hard drives but to clarify in case I had misspoke, I only have one drive in the Mini: the SSD. My HDD is the portable. By the way, my setup has never sounded better than it does tonight!
Cheers,
John
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Hi John,
Sorry, I was replying mostlyto Yoder. And again, not saying that 2 HDs won't work in a mini, but it's just not optimum for best sonics, and I have never heardd of or seen any problems with SSDs ads boot drives in the later mac minis. Though this may be a problem with some of the Apple OEM SSDs, which are far too expensive and not very good drives to begin with. They also don't hold up with Windows OSs very well as boot drives s the file system is just too brutal on them andd things like a defrag can create hot spots in the drive and lead to premature failure.
I was going to put an SSD in my big windows machine, but after doing the research, decided it's best to forego this.
Glad to hear that thigs are sounding so good -- did the augie towers get to you yet?
I have to say that my listening room system is sounding just oout of this world now and that's still with the relatively inexpensive CD player as source The mini willl go back in this system in the next couple of days and I'll put a pretty much stock mini in the living room now though will eventually install a SSD and a Pi power cable on that one, and probably eventually the Mach2 software. That's where the CEntrance DACMini CX, stereomour and Orcas/subs will go too, so shaping up to be a really nice system at a fraction of the price of the reference system.
-- Jim
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Jim,
I just read a very nice review of the DACmini by Wayne from Bolder Cable Co. and it was very complimentary of the DAC you are putting in your system. I suspect it will be a great match for the Stereomour!
My Augie Towers did arrive and they are sounding very nice! They look/feel so good, too! You can tell they are made from real wood by hand just by touching them. The bass immediately tightened up and is very clean sounding, indeed. I can tell you the shipping crates that Mike used did the job! One crate had clearly been dropped and had broken wood...yet not even a slight worry on the inside. I insisted on opening it while the Yellow Freight driver was still there. He was happy to see the speaker and commented I was going to "blow away the neighborhood" with those!
Although it won't do you any good, here is a photo of one of them next to my old baffle:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hawthorneaudio.us%2Fforums%2Fdownload%2Ffile.php%3Fid%3D1144%26amp%3Bmode%3Dview&hash=f5ef2e84d75b0a67c41de6b9ee742452bc6fa933)
I'm on the "wild and wooly" burn in of my Bolder Music Rail PS for my SB Touch...the first 100 hours were ROUGH!!! Suddenly it sounds better than I've heard the system sound before. I've been warned it can go bad once or twice more until 300 hours. Hopefully not...
How is your new stand coming? The quality is worth the wait...
Best,
John
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You're not supposed to defrag an SSD. Windows 7 turns off defrag scheduling for SSD drives by default. It also enables TRIM by default on SSDs. It sounds like you didn't do much real research into using an SSD on a Windows system :) And why would a hard drive change the sound of an audio file? Or is that not what anyone is claiming. Are people simply claiming that they are physically loud?
What I am hearing folks say is that there is electrical and mechanical "noise" that is created by using an HDD that isn't present in an SSD.
I understand folks don't always believe that such noise can have an impact on sound quality, yet there are plenty of examples that people can easily A/B and decide for themselves. A good example is a high quality linear power supply for a Squeezebox Touch vs the stock switching power supply. Everyone who has listened to that A/B has preferred the linear to the switching yet there is no change other than electrical "noise" in the system.
John
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Moving parts make noise.
Cheers,
Shawn
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Hi John,
I'll send you an email so as to not go too far astray with this thread.
Ramacio, of course you can defeat defrag, and yes, the whole point is that you can't defrag an SSD --so why use a drive in a windows machine that you can't defrag? Seems like a rather bad idea to me. Just because defrag is disabled or can be, doesn't suddenly mean that the OS gets a file system upgrade such that it does not neeed defragging anymore.
And yes, there is a sonic differrence between drives of the same type -- ssd or rotating/mechanical and there are a bunch of factors that go into it so prediction is nearly impossible, but many people have done tests and found certain drives to sound cleaner and better than others -- again, bits are not bits and there is much that can effect them going from source to final destination. Power supplies, interface chipsets, pcb layouts, enclosures, connectors, cabling all figures in, especially at such high frequencies and small signal levels. Suggest you stop reading what other's say and parroting it back, and do some emprical research for yourself -- I'm quite certain that is the only way you'll really understand -- and if you can't hear the difference, more power to you, you just saved yyourself a lot of time and money. I've spent the time and money and the results have beeen completely worth it for me.
I moved to computer audio as a matter of convenience because having my whole music catalog available in a form I can easily access and manage (ratther than a thousand CDs and hundreds of avinyl albums -- all with braille labels, was getting to be no fun and thus limited my listening.
At first the convenience wwas great but the sonics not so much. Now the sonics are as good and better in many ways than any top shelf CDP or turntable I've had, meaning that my sound is now better than ever, and completely convenient as well, and therefore I listen more often and with more satisfaction than ever before.
And isn't that the whole point?
-- Jim
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Ok, but then what happens when you have broken files? I've been doing this for far more years than you've been alive and I choose to not use SSDs with windows at this point -- does that meet with your approval?
As for testing and research methods, I'm also well versed in those and since audio is basically a subjective experience, much of the objective testing you suggest tells an experienced audio person very little. And FYI, all my testing is blind :-).
You seem very certain in your knowledge so that's fine -- ignorance is bliss.
Enjoy the soundd of your cooling fans and I'll not be engaging you on this or any other topic from here on out.
Toodlooski,
Jim
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According to Intel, ramicio is correct.
http://www.intel.com/support/ssdc/hpssd/sb/CS-029623.htm#5
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Once again I am forced to lock a thread that may contain useful information, but one in which that participants are mistaking intolerance for each other with useful contribution. Guys, cut the insults and limit the discussions here to the sharing of information. I will not tolerate this.