If I wanted to build an SR45...

Jim R. · 11610

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Offline Jim R.

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Reply #15 on: January 24, 2011, 04:14:58 AM
Paul,

Thanks for all this.

Let's suppose I just want to work with what I have/am getting (and at this point I don't know if the iron has been upgraded or not as the seller wasn't sure), what would you recommend as potential suitable transformers?  Stereomour? EXO 45 or 50? RH PF, or if I wanted to go custom, what would the specs be for inductance and RDC?  Also, what about the plate choke?  I have no idea what the specs on the original Paramour iron upgrade pieces are.

Also, as my speakers are 95/96 dB, I'd probably be fine with AC heaters, and if at a later date I wanted to change that, I can always build an external filament supply either based on the FC1, or maybe the diyhifi filament supply modules.

Funny, I've also been considering an extended FP III, so this may be coming sooner than I had originally planned.

I had also wondered about the 6dn7 as a possible driver/shunt reg tube, so glad to see you mention that.

Thanks again,

Jim

Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #16 on: January 24, 2011, 04:15:41 PM
... what would you recommend as potential suitable transformers?  Stereomour? EXO 45 or 50? RH PF, or if I wanted to go custom, what would the specs be for inductance and RDC?  Also, what about the plate choke? ...
Instead of a recommendation, I'll offer some assessment - theoretical of course since I haven't compared these myself in an SR45 circuit:

The best sounding transformer would be a TFA-2004 Junior with nickel laminations. The OT-2 (Paramour II and Paramount upgrade) is very similar, just different construction details. Unfortunately, at 3K primary impedance it also has the lowest turns ratio and with the 45 will have the lowest damping factor. Steel (M6 or M4) laminations are less costly and provide greater power handling (which you don't need for a 45), but they do not sound quite as sweet to my ears.

The Stereomour output (OT-3) is not currently offered by itself. At 4K it has a higher turns ratio so the damping would be a bit better. It's not made with a nickel core. I tried to get as close to the TFA-2004 performance as I could, in a smaller package with conventional materials and workmanship.

The EXO-45 has a 5K impedance and would have the highest damping factor. It's available with a nickel core, but also has the least power handling capability, so I would not use the nickel core option unless you were not going to push it in the deep bass.

The Robin Hood is also 5K; it's kind of an EXO-45 with a growth hormone problem. :^) Power handling is very high - if you can get Mike to make one with nickel laminations it will still be effortless in the deepest bass. It is the largest of them all, and might not fit inside the chassis.

For plate chokes, the Paramour II upgrade package included the BH-6 plate choke, 40 henries at 50mA. Even better for a 45 would be the SEX upgrade BH2, 50 henries at 40mA (different air gap, same number of turns. Failing that, the BCP-15 is very similar, and available with either air gap. Because plate chokes have many more turns, the core material distortion is attenuated and I would not bother with nickel, which would also seriously de-rate the current capability.

Hope that helps!

Paul Joppa


Offline 2wo

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Reply #17 on: January 24, 2011, 06:22:03 PM
Mine is close to Johns above. I use the BH-5 with a pair of EC-99's and I keep forgetting about the BCP-16 grid chokes. Gee we all can't seem to just follow instructions now can we;)

I replaced the input stage of the 6CM7 with a 12AT7 in an effort to get a bit more gain. I'm not sure it was worth it, there is more gain but I  still can use a preamp in my somewhat low gain system and the 6CM7 is a pretty good sounding tube...John
 

John S.


Offline Jim R.

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Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 04:34:31 AM
Hi Paul,

Yes, thank yu!  This helps a lot.  I don't see the TFA-2004 jr. on the MQ products page, but the other TFA-2004s look to be 3k , so is the jr. also 3k?

How deep do you mean by deep bass?  My speaks do about 40 Hz and I don't use a sub. Thinking if exo-45 in pinstripe might work.  Failing that, I'll most likely just go with the stock paramour II upgrade OPT.  Also, my main source has a fairly low output Z and 2.25v rms output, so will I still need a preamp with my 95/96 dB speakers

If I wanted to raid my s.e.x. plate choke, and leave the nickel OPT, can I go back to the original s.e.x. plate choke, and what may the consequences be?

John, are you running yours full range?

Last night I found the paramour II product page and I didn't realize that these were the 8 x 10 format chassis.  Can't wait to see if these have the upgrades or not.

-- Jim

Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline elcraigo

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Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 05:42:42 AM
For what it's worth; I have Paramour I, with the SR45 upgrade PCB; but with the newer Power Transformer. This is the power transformer Doc does not have or can get anymore. I've use the BCP-15 for the Plate Choke, and Pin-stripped (nickle/M6) EXO45's for outputs. I works well for me. I use with DX3's in a large MLTL, and measured 101 dbSPL @1W.
As Elieen the Queen put it one time; I've squeeze all the performance out of an old Paramour I.
I'm glad to provide any notes I have.

Craig Lewis (elcraigo is a nickname a good friend who grew up in Mexico gave me)


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 10:34:48 AM
The Junior is the same winding, on a shorter stack of laminations (1.25" instead of 1.75"), so the impedance ratio is identical. Mike doesn't keep them in stock, but does a run every so often. The BH-5 is the same winding schedule, with different insulating materials. The leakage inductance and capacitance are both a bit smaller, so the high frequency performance is better. The power handling at low frequencies is reduced by the smaller core - not a problem with the 45.

Transformer cores are overloaded by excess voltage at low frequencies, independent of whether the speaker can reproduce those frequencies. Any overload distortion will intermodulate with sounds that are reproduced, you need to limit the low frequency power applied to the transformer to avoid this distortion. In the case of phonograph (and tape, with NAB eq) there is a built-in limitation, effectively a roll off below 50Hz. You can't always count on this with digital recordings, however. Additional protection is provided by the plate choke and parafeed capacitor, usually in the range of 10Hz-20Hz.

Sorry I'm unable to provide useful specific criteria. I am generally happy with a transformer that can provide the amplifier's rated power at 30Hz with 13000 Gauss of flux, using a M6 grain-oriented silicon steel core. The stock Paramour and Paramour II compromised on this, delivering full power down to around 60Hz, yet was satisfactory to a large majority of customers for many years. At the other end, many people prefer amps which can handle full power down to 20Hz or even 15Hz. For 50% nickel cores, you have to asses it at lower flux density, some use 8000 Gauss and others 10000 Gauss - about 40% and 60% as much power, respectively.

I have tried to balance the plate chokes and output transformers in our kits - a small transformer benefits from a small plate choke which gives a higher cutoff frequency, even though the other benefits of parafeed are reduced by a small choke. But swapping chokes is certainly practical as long as you are alert for the possible effects. The optimal parafeed capacitor value is proportional to the choke inductance, though I have adjusted the production value in some cases - most notably the stock Paramour where 1.25uF is optimal but I used 3.3uF - this deviated from optimum to provide a deeper bass cutoff frequency, at the price of potential transformer overload.

I suppose this muddied the waters more than clarifying things - sorry for that.

Paul Joppa


Offline Jim R.

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Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 10:50:06 AM
Hi Paul,

Thanks, and yes this does help.  It's not crystal clear, but not muddy either.

Elcraigo, thanks for the offer and info and I'll let you know when and if I need more help.

Actually, it seems as if all of this is moot for the time being anyway as there are no orders being taken at MQ, and I also suspect there are no more SR boards to be had.

-- Jim


Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline 2wo

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Reply #22 on: January 25, 2011, 12:51:41 PM
Jim, I do run mine full range. Most often with a pair of the Hornshoppe  Horns. I sometimes add a sub but my Horns are well away from the corners and walls, so a little help in the bass doesn't hurt.

Paul mentioned new boards, which would be a help but the SR boards were not specific to the SR but were an existing C4S board with some component changes and jumpers...John   

John S.


Offline awsjr

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Reply #23 on: January 27, 2011, 05:23:39 AM
would the PGP 8.1 PT work for the SR45 ?..... these are awesome amps....I also added the BCP-16 nickel grid chokes to mine ....and while probably not optimal, I dropped in a pair of EXO-36 cobalt OPT's for a listen verses the BH-5 nickel stripe OPT's..... sounded good to me

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Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #24 on: January 27, 2011, 07:21:40 AM
The PGP8 puts out a lot more voltage, so the operating points would have to be revised significantly. It would still be the same amp, other than different resistors, capacitors, iron, power supply, and topology.  :^) Haha

Paul Joppa


Offline awsjr

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Reply #25 on: January 27, 2011, 11:53:49 PM
Paul, you are so nice to take such a round-about way to say NO....wasn't there a 45 amp called the "single" that is similar to the SR45 where these PT would work?....I was digging around in some parts I have and came across some CP-06006 chokes (40 madc, 50 H, 550 ohms dcr) that look like a better fit for the SR45 from the info you spec'ed....maybe I can try those out soon

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Offline Doc B.

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Reply #26 on: January 28, 2011, 06:02:40 AM
There was an article called the "Simple 45" that was a 45 version of the circuit that John Tucker and I developed back on the late 90's for 2A3s. It does not use shunt regulation, and it was direct coupled with the active loaded driver tube sitting "under" the 45 tube. It was originally published in VALVE (which I hope to publicly archive on the Bottlehead site some day) and I believe it may currently be available through the Enjoy the Music website.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #27 on: January 28, 2011, 06:04:41 AM
I don't recall any amp called "single" - not that my memory is all that great! But we've only done the one fully shunt regulated amp, plus a one-off custom 2A3 amp which was quite a challenge.

The PGP8.1 can support a fully shunt regulated 45 design, possibly even one that is direct coupled. I'm just saying that I have not designed such an amp, and the PGP8.1 won't work with the amp(s) that I have already designed. The issue is mostly the voltage and power dissipation capability of available transistors in the current sources.

If I recall correctly (see memory comment above) the CP-06006 is essentially a prototype for the BH-2 plate choke used in the SEX amp upgrade package. It is perfectly suited for a 45. The starting point for several chokes was the BCP-15, 40 henries at 50mA. for the BH-2 it was re-gapped to give 50 henries at 40mA, and the internal construction was altered with superior materials and construction which are Magnequest proprietary. The same materials alteration with the original 50mA/40henry air gap, is the BH-6 plate choke in the Paramour upgrade package. Mike now offers your choice of air gaps on the BCP-15, so there are four current versions, all using variants of the same core and coil.

Paul Joppa


Offline Jim R.

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Reply #28 on: January 28, 2011, 06:14:10 AM
Paul and others,

This is the amp that I asked about a couple weeks ago and has more information posted in the "My Next Project -- Tucker 45 monos" in the general discussion area.

So, who makes this CP06006 choke?  That would be lovely for my SR45 -- if it's not a currently unobtanium MQ piece, that is.

Thanks,

Jim

Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #29 on: January 28, 2011, 09:51:14 AM
It's a Magnequest product, not listed. I think Mike only used that designation until we all agreed to call it a BH-2.

Mike said he would be out for a few months, so I kind of expect him to start taking orders again pretty soon. Right now I think he's snowed in with nearly two feet of snow in Philly ...  :^)

Paul Joppa