Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Eros Phono => Topic started by: Larpy on November 24, 2023, 12:24:38 PM
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I installed a new cartridge on my turntable (a Linn LP12) and am hearing intermittent distortion, in both channels and most noticeable on louder passages. I've checked and rechecked the geometry of the cartridge alignment, checked its VTF, etc, made sure the cartridge leads are tight, and I still have the problem.
I also checked the voltages of my Eros and they're all in spec. With one possible exception: the voltage from the PS board was 262v, when last I checked it (a couple of years ago?) it was 278v. Not a huge drop, but nothing has changed in the Eros since I last measured its voltages.
I've been thinking it's a defective cartridge, but I noticed today that records sound fine when I first turn on the Eros but sound distorted the longer I listen. Could the Eros be the problem once it warms up? I did notice the other day when I turned off the Eros to test it that its PT was very hot, too hot to touch for longer than a couple of seconds. Is that normal?
Is this a plausible suspicion? If so, can I confirm it by turning on the Eros, letting it warm up for 30 minutes and then testing its voltage?
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Couple thoughts, since I happen to be working on restoring an old Dual headshell, and I also own an Eros! First, the transformer on my Eros also gets too hot to touch. I think that's normal. Second, I would check the continuity between the cartridge pins and the RCA jacks from the Lynn. I had to replace the four small leads inside the headshell because of high and intermittent resistance there. I guess they can be forgiven for this after 50 years. Next, I would try a known good source and remove the Lynn from the testing. If you have a signal generator that would be best. 2mV rms into the Eros.
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Thanks for the suggestions. I actually replaced the cartridge leads, thinking they might be the issue, but that wasn't it. I confirmed continuity between the cartridge pins and the tonearm's RCA output jacks (each pin measured .7Ω).
I don't have a signal generator, but I imagine I could download a 2mV signal and play it through the Eros. But what would I then measure? This is new troubleshooting territory for me.
Oh, I should add that it's not a matter of the cartridge overloading the Eros. The cart's output is .4mV and I use Sowter 1:10 SUTs at the Eros input: that should put the signal into the Eros in the 4-6mV target, which is what the Eros is designed for.
I hadn't listened much recently to the cartridge this new one replaced because it had seen nearly 5 years of service and I knew it was worn. But I remember the last time I listened to it, it sounded terrible. That prompted me to buy the new cart and to send the old one off to Soundsmith for retipping.
What's confounding is that this distortion is intermittent. The only pattern I think I detect involves the Eros: when it's just been turned on, LPs sound great. After it's been on for 30 minutes or so, I hear distortion. My digital sources are fine, no distortion there whatsoever, so it must be something in my analog chain. I changed out all the tubes in the Eros; no difference. I changed the interconnect between the Eros and my preamp; no difference.
I diligently clean the stylus after each LP I play, so I'm pretty confident that's not the issue.
So I think I'm down to three possibilities:
1) defective cartridge
2) bad connection inside the tonearm (but both channels are affected, so I'm leaning against this explanation)'
3) something amiss in the Eros.
Unsurprisingly, the retailer (online) from whom I bought the cartridge isn't convinced the cartridge is at fault.
Given the pattern of good sound that deteriorates after 30 minutes or so, my attention has turned to the Eros. As I said, when I measured the voltages in the Eros, all the regulated voltages were spot on, but the voltage from the board above the transformer was a bit low. This was after I had unplugged the Eros and it had a chance to cool down.
So I'm wondering if there's a measurement I can do with the Eros that would confirm that it's behind my problem. And then of course I want to fix it!
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I just took some more measurements. The Eros had been turned off since yesterday.
Before I turned it on, I measured the resistance across the PT's primary (29Ω) and secondary (87Ω). Then I turned it on and waited a couple of minutes. Then I measured 120 VAC at the PT's primary and 119VAC at the secondary.
According to the PS board above the transformer, the secondary voltage should be 135VAC.
DC out from the PS board was 273v. So does that mean the regulator is being asked to work harder than it should? Would that result in distortion, mostly in the upper bass and midrange, on louder passages on LPs?
I'll leave the Eros turned on and take more measurements after 30 minutes or so.
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30 minutes later, the transformer's secondary measures 117VAC. The DC out from the PS board is down to 267vDC. There was no load during this time. The Eros was at idle.
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I took a look at my Eros measurements, attached. 267VDC does seem a bit high. PB will have to weigh in on that. If that's not the issue, my next troubleshooting steps would be to use a different source than the Linn. Ideally a signal generator, but even a phone headphone jack with tone generator app on minimum volume. Set up the Eros in a way that you can reach the underside while running. Try to reproduce the distortion, then start chopsticking the underside joints.
I had exactly this problem with a Fender reproduction guitar amp I built. It worked fine for a 2 years, then started distorting intermittently only when it was hot. It turned out that the nut holding down the grounding tab had loosened slightly over the years, probably from thermal cycling. (The ground tab on that amp was fastened to one of the transformer bolts.) I tightened it up and the issue was fixed! But wow it took me a long time to figure out the problem.
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267vDC is the voltage out of the board on top of the transformer; it's not one of the measurements listed at the end of the manual. It's supposed to be 275vDC.
The measurement that has my attention is the transformer's secondary: I measure 117-119 vAC when it should be 135. The heater side measures correctly, but the high voltage side of my transforming doesn't seem to transforming at all. 120vAC > 117-119vAC.
The Eros has two grounding points: one near the IEC jack and another between the input jacks. Both are screwed tight. Of course, I might have a bad ground connection elsewhere, but since I hear the distortion in both channels, and the Eros wiring is dual channel after the PS, I'm thinking a ground problem would have to be in the PS. Everything looks OK there though.
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Took some more measurements for you, hope this is helpful. LMK if you want any more measurements points from mine.
Transformer:
Primary 13 vs. 15: 29 ohms, 123 VAC
Secondary 11 vs. 12: 85 ohms, 123 VAC
Secondary 7 vs. 9: 0.3 ohms (my dmm leads are 0.1 ohms), 8.9 VAC
P/S board:
275VDC pins: 285VDC. this came down to 283VDC after 5 min.
6.3VDC pins: 6.3VDC. this came down to 6.2VDC after 5 min
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Your voltages look spot on, but you are measuring them after only 5 minutes and telling us that the problem occurs after 30 minutes. So....
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The voltages definitely will change a little bit as the Eros warms up. We provide voltage measurements that are shortly after turn-on, since that's what's useful in the manual. The high voltage output of the power supply board above the power transformer needs to be at least 230V for the regulator circuit to work properly, so there's plenty of wiggle room there.
Yes, the power transformer in the Eros runs quite hot, but still has a lot of thermal headroom in terms of when the transformer would run so hot that damage would occur. PJ did keep it cool enough under normal operation that it's hot to the touch but not hot enough to cause any kind of injury.
I would be interested in knowing what the DC voltages are after the problem starts happening, as there's likely some kind of shift in operation that could be responsible for the problem you're having.
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Well, my hypothesis that the distortion only presents itself after the Eros warms up is wrong. Today I heard the distortion within seconds on the first LP I played. The Eros had only been on for a minute or two. The distortion remained for the entire side of the LP.
I took measurements midway through, and all the DC measurements were right on target, except that the DC coming from the PS board above the transformer was a little low: 265v. But 10 volts too low is no big deal.
The only anomaly I measured was, as I reported yesterday, the power transformer's secondary was 117vAC. Both the schematic and the print on the PS board where the secondary wires are soldered to specify 135vAC.
So my question is: could this be the problem? Would 117vAC from the transformer's secondaries result in correct DC voltages on the voltage regulators but cause distortion during louder passages of music?
And, if so, does this mean I need a new power transformer?
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The power transformer puts out a nominal 135 vAC when it is unloaded To test that, just pull the tubes, which will remove most of the current draw. The winding resistances you measured indicate it is up to spec.
The voltages I would focus on are the EF86 plates (A6 and B6) and cathodes (A3 and B3).
Incidentally, the OSHA "safe to touch" temperature is 140 degrees for 5 seconds or less.
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Yes, of course. I should have thought of that--that the secondary's specified voltage is without a load.
Well, I guess my Eros is perfectly healthy and not the culprit of the distortion I'm hearing. Plate voltages on the EF86s are 100v, and the cathodes are 1.7v. Right in spec.
Thanks for the help, everyone.
I think I must have gotten a defective cartridge.
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I don't suppose you can Borrow A turntable for a quick test?
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I live in a part of the country where audiophiles are few and far between (not that they're really falling from the trees anywhere these days). Although I live in a mid-sized midwestern city, I have to drive an hour to visit the closest hifi shop. I have a few friends with turntables, but all of them use moving magnet cartridges. They wouldn't work plugged into my Eros as it's configured.
Of course, it wouldn't be all that much work to temporarily rewire the Eros to bypass the SUTs. Up until now I was hoping to avoid this. But maybe now it's time.
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I took John’s advice and asked a friend to bring over his Music Hall turntable (fitted with a Shure MX97xe cartridge). While I waited for him, I rewired my Eros input jacks to bypass the Sowter SUTs. Once my friend arrived, we replaced my Linn LP12/Ekos/HanaML with his Music Hall/Shure and put on side 1 of Radiohead’s Kid A.
I heard the same distortion as I did before(!).
I have some speakers and an old Technics receiver (made back when they had internal MM phono stages) set up in another part of the house, and so we plugged the Music Hall turntable into it and the Radiohead LP we had just played sounded fine through it. No distortion.
So the problem I’m having has to be with my Eros.
What would cause the Eros to distort in both channels on louder passages (usually bass-heavy) even while all of its voltages are spot on? It obviously can’t be the Sowter SUTs, since they were not in the circuit.
Last night I did the chopstick test on the PS board above the PT and on nearby ground connections but didn’t hear anything through my headphones.
I'm feeling baffled and defeated. Any help will be hugely appreciated.
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I would expect the voltages to deviate once the problem has occurred. Are you 100% sure that the voltages are all Ok when this happens?
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Yesterday I had the Eros' chassis inverted while I played an LP. I heard the distortion and took measurements then and there.
I don't remember if I raised the tonearm or not while I took the measurements. I'll repeat the exercise and take measurements while the Eros is processing a signal and report back.
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It would also be worth a shot to roll in a different tube set, just to rule that out.
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Have you ruled out the audio chain after the Eros? What do you have the Eros plugged into?
To test this, when you have the distortion happening, you could unplug the Eros output from its subsequent amp input and plug it into the aux jack of your techniques receiver.
On the grounding question, I'd chopstick all the points along the ground bus near the inputs. Since it's a single ground bus for both channels, a bad solder joint there could affect both channels simultaneously.
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Changing all four tubes makes no difference. I just tried it again to confirm.
Voltages are spot on measured while hearing the distortion:
IA 217
IB 216
OA 162
OB 166
OC 99
OD 99
OkA 100
OkB 100
OkC 1.7
OkD 1.7
The Eros is plugged into a preamp. I tried plugging the Eros into different input jacks on the preamp but the distortion followed. The digital devices plugged into the other input jacks sound fine.
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One more thing, the distortion is no longer intermittent but constant. Good news, I guess, from a diagnostic perspective.
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I would poke around to see if the chopstick test can yield any results. I suspect you have some kind of ground conductivity issue that isn't in the DC current path (so your voltages are OK) but is very much present with AC.
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I had a similar intermittent, then constant, then intermittent distortion issue with my Eros a while back. After months of searching it ended up being badly oxidized tube pins and sockets. Cleaning the sockets with a torch tip cleaner, some steel wool on the tube pins and deoxit cleared it up.
I would reflow the joints for the ground bus while I was poking around in there as well. Gremlins can frequently take up residence in those crowded joints over time.
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Yes, I think you, Colin, and Paul B were all on target with the suggestion to probe the ground buss. Doing so elicited some pops and I reflowed some solder joints. Strangely, the distortion got worse rather than better. Then i desoldered most of the connections on the ground buss and reassembled and resoldered them and the right channel sounded distortion-free but the left channel sounded like a 94 year old lifetime chain-smoker struggling for breath. More probing with a chopstick revealed a questionable connection to the 7308's left channel plate.
I started reflowing solder on the board above the 7308 tube and, well, you know where that led. Solder bridge along the legs of a transistor. That led to removing the board to remove and reinstall said transistor.
Once I got it all back together, the Eros sounded like a broken distortion generator, like a Big Muff Pi guitar pedal with a near-dead battery in it.
I wearily came to the conclusion that my Eros was demonically possessed, Scoff if you will, but the thing served proudly without a hitch for 3 years until suddenly all hell broke loose. My every attempt to fix one problem only encouraged the gremlin to gleefully attack another part of the circuit.
Late yesterday afternoon, after fighting the demons for about 7 hours, still dressed in my bathrobe (I'm retired, so this happens more often than you might think), I remembered that I still had a few hours left on BH's 15% off sale.
Dear reader, I did it! I ordered another Eros. Nodding solemnly to the unhappy Eros before me, I congratulated the demon on his (its? their?) victory.
I'll start over, this time having my parish priest bless each component before I install it.
OK, seriously, yes, I did order another Eros. I love building amps, but once they're built I hate working on them again. All my pretty initial work starts looking ugly. And removing and reworking a PCB is my idea of hell.
So I'm happy to do my little part to help Dan and Eileen gracefully transition to retirement. I can't buy their company, but I can put a few more dollars into their bank account. And I'll have a fun project for the winter. That's a win-win.
And maybe some day I'll come back to the possessed Eros and see if I can free it from its demonic captivity but, honestly, I'm in no rush.
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I think I would have sent it back to BH for service. Perhaps we would all have found out where the demons were living.
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Yeah if I had it, I might break out the hot air gun and heat stuff up while it was distorting to see if the problematic node could be located.
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I have a friend whose Seduction stopped working, and now all he listens to is Qobuz. I'll eventually rebuild the demonic Eros and give it to him as an inducement to start spinning vinyl again. In the meantime I'll strip the demonic Eros for parts: I put some very nice caps and resistors into it. They'll go into my new Eros once I wash them in holy water.
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UPDATE: After a few nights' rest, I returned to my work bench and fired up the solder station. I removed all the components along the ground bus and meticulously reinstalled them. I removed the board above the 7308 tube and removed and reinstalled the transistor whose legs got bridged the other day.
Fired up the demonic beast and now I have some, I hope, tell-tale wonky voltages:
IA 218 IB 277
OA 216 0B 274
OC 201 OD 51
OkA 0 OkB -.5
OkC 8 Okd -.004
Both channels are unhappy but in different ways.
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One channel isn't getting a proper regulated voltage from the board above the 12AU7 socket. This could be from a problematic solder joint at pins 4/5 there, a broken wire, etc.
That hypothesis seems to possibly be playing out in the forward section of the amp as well, as you have no current being drawn by the 6922.
I would also be measuring voltages at the +6.3V pads on the board over the power transformer to be sure those aren't moving around on you too.
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Heater voltage on the PS board is fine.
But I caught a mistake I made reinstalling the board above the 7308: I reversed the wires to OC/OKA and OD/OKB.
Now that I've corrected that, I get these voltages:
IA 218 IB 151
OA 163 OB 144
OC 98 OD 140
OKA 99 OKB 139
OKC 2 OKD -.003
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If you pull the EF86s and 6922, does that 151V on IB pop up to 220?
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It goes up to 287v.
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My focus would be on the 12AU7 socket to get that regulator working. What are the Kreg voltages?
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I put the 7308 back into the socket and measured pins 3 and 8, 147v and 258v respectively.
I then noticed a little smoke rising from the board above that tube and pulled the plug. Nothing is obviously burned that I can see.
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You don't want to run the amp with just the 6922 tube installed. You'd want to run the amp with just the 12AU7 installed in the D socket to check on power supply voltages.
If you put a 7308 in the D socket instead of a 12AU7, that is going to cause some damage to the Eros for sure.
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No, I never took out the 12AU7. I removed the 7308 and the EF86s, then put the 7308 back in.
Now I have all 4 tubes installed. I think I found the cause of the smoke (a tiny solder whisker between legs of a transistor). Fixed that and now I have:
IA 218 IB 280
OA 163 OB 230
OC 98 OD 53
OKA 99 OKB 59
OKC 2 OKD -.004
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Which transistor had the solder wiskers? I would check to be sure you have the appropriate voltages at pins 4/5 of the EF86 on the sketchy channel (should be about 50 and 56V DC). If that all looks good, then I'd swap in a new 2N2222 transistor on that side.
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Checked all the wires from the 7308 socket and all have continuity and measure correct resistance. Checked all the wires coming from the board and they all have continuity.
Hard not to credit the demon for returning sevenfold. At least today I got out of my bathrobe and got dressed before turning on the solder station. I'll count that as a victory.
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Uh oh, I forget which one it was. Pretty sure it was one on the left side. I'll go check to see if I have any spare 2N2222s.
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Never mind. . .
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I'll order 4 and change them all.
There should only be two in there.
You'll also want to go back to the D socket board and figure out why you're getting 280V instead of 220V on one side of the HV regulator. Why this is happening would depend a bit on what your Kreg voltages are.
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I've been sloppy with my terminology. The solder whisker involved either a PN4250A or a MJE350. I do have extra MJE350s.
Should I still replace the 2N2222s? Replace the PN4250As as well?
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I would only replace a PN4250 or MJE-350 if you can find a shorted pair of leads with your meter.
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Which legs do I measure to check for a short?
I inspected the D socket and the grid resistor soldered to pin 7 is a little scorched. That might account for the smoke I saw. What would cause that grid resistor to draw too much current (which is what I assume would scorch it)?
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No current really flows through that resistor. If it burned, that could indicate a severe short in the 12AU7 (which would be very rare) or some kind of contaminant shorting pin 6 to pin 7. Does the resistor still read the correct value?
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It does.
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Well at least you have that going for you! How are the Kreg voltages on the power supply SR board?
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I'll check tomorrow. I need to call it a day. But thank you so much for helping me.
Round two goes to the Demon.
I'm down, but I'm not out yet.
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OK, a new day, a good night's sleep, and a sunny demeanor have me back at my workbench.
Two things to report:
KregB on the D socket board measures 5.6v (B side output is 218v).
KregA on the D socket board measures 24v (A side output is 294v).
At this point, I have only the 12AU7 installed.
Second item:
I checked for continuity among the legs of all 6 transistors on the C socket board (above the 6922/7308) and there's no continuity except for the 2N2222 on the left channel side of the board. That means this one needs to be replaced, correct?
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KregA on the D socket board measures 24v (A side output is 294v).
One of the resistors from grid to ground (pins 2/7) on that 12AU7 isn't doing its job.
I checked for continuity among the legs of all 6 transistors on the C socket board (above the 6922/7308) and there's no continuity except for the 2N2222 on the left channel side of the board. That means this one needs to be replaced, correct?
Yes, that is definitely causing one of your issues.
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Some success! I fixed the regulated B+ problem. I now have 218v coming to both sides of the C socket board. Kreg on the D socket board is 5.9v on both sides.
The problem turned out to be the 431 regulator. The only reason I figured this out is because as I was reflowing the solder on the kreg wires between the socket and the board I had a feeling of déja vu. I checked the Eros forum archives and, sure enough, almost 2 years ago I had the exact same issue playing LPs through my Eros ("sounds like a dirty stylus," I moped) and you eventually helped me diagnose the problem as the 431 regulator. Then it was the B side; this time it was the A side. I still had extra 431s from fixing the problem then. Since the legs of the "bad" regulator didn't seem to be shorted, I guess the problem was a questionable soldering job that took a few years to become a problem.
Once I get some more 2N2222s delivered next week and replace the shorted one on the C board, maybe I'll have a happy Eros again.
Thank you again for your help and amazing patience.
To be continued. . . .
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Replacements transistors arrived this morning, and I replaced all 5 on the "bad" side of the C socket board: 2 PN250s, 2 MJE350s, and 1 2N2222. I also reflowed the solder on all the joints on that side of the boards. And I replaced all the wires going to that side of the board.
Still no luck. Here are my voltages, unchanged from before I changed out the resistors:
1A 217 IB 216
OA 163 OB 213
OC 97 OD 51
OKA 99 OKB 57
OKC 2.0 OKD -.003
I've checked all the connections on the 6922 and EF86 tube pins, and they all seem fine.
I'm at a loss.
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Replacing everything in one shot can make more problems than it solves since board rework is rather challenging.
Do you still measure a short around the 2N2222? It could be that there's something amiss on the board or socket that's shorting out the cathode. Maybe try removing the wire going into OkD and measure the resistance between the earth post on the chassis and that loose wire that leaves pins 3/8 on the EF86 socket to see if there's a short there.
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Excellent advice, Paul (as usual). I did have a short between that side of the board's cathode circuit and ground, and the problem turned out to be the tube itself. Its cathode (pin 3) was shorted to pins 2 and 7 (the tube's internal shield?). I checked the other tube (on the "good" side of the Eros), and there was no continuity between pin 3 and pins 2 and 7. Whether the tube died from suicide or murder (by my blundering hand) I don't know, but it was previously a healthy tube. Somehow I managed to take out a 431 regulator and a 2N2222 as well.
So now I have all the DC voltages back to where they should be.
But! I still have the distorted sound I initially heard that prompted my first post. I was hoping it was the 431 regulator, but apparently not. Apparently, all the troubleshooting I've been doing over the past week was just tracking down the problems I created myself in trying to diagnose the distortion sound.
I hear it in the center of the soundstage and most noticeably on louder passages.
Paul, you suggested earlier that it's a problem with the preamp's AC, since I heard the distortion even while measuring the correct DC voltages. The DC is happy but somewhere the AC is not. A dodgy connection to ground perhaps? Would anything else cause these symptoms?
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Apparently, all the troubleshooting I've been doing over the past week was just tracking down the problems I created myself in trying to diagnose the distortion sound.
This sounds very familiar ;)
Paul, you suggested earlier that it's a problem with the preamp's AC, since I heard the distortion even while measuring the correct DC voltages. The DC is happy but somewhere the AC is not. A dodgy connection to ground perhaps? Would anything else cause these symptoms?
Yes, I suspect there's something that's not in the DC current flow path that's poorly connected and causing AC issues. If you have a phone with a headphone jack on it, you can play music at one volume setting above mute into your Eros and poke around while it's playing to see if you can change the behavior of the issue.
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Another head-scratching update: I could not reproduce the distortion using my phone to feed a low level music signal through the Eros. The EQ was horrible, of course, but the sound was clear.
One thing I noticed is that one of my Sowter 1990s has half as much secondary resistance as the other (860Ω vs 1.4KΩ). I find that alarming but I didn't notice the channels sounding different through headphones when I listened to just the left or the right channel. So I don't think the distortion is coming from one of the Sowters. (But I wonder if I should contact Sowter and ask about the impedance mismatch.)
In fact, I don't think the distortion is coming from the Eros. When I play records, the distortion is now constant, but I didn't hear the distortion in the music played through the Eros from my phone.
I found an old Koetsu cartridge in my box of used cartridges that still might have some life left, so I installed it on the Linn LP12 and the distortion was quite noticeable, so that rules out the new Hana ML I bought. I replaced the tonearm cable from my Linn tonearm, just to test that possibility (I have two stock Linn tonearm cables, and they can be fiddly and need to be installed just so). No difference.
Could the distortion be coming from my LP12's tonearm? It's a Linn Ekos and the only thing about it I don't like is that it has a very small headshell area and that makes fitting cartridges difficult. The Hana wanted to be mounted back further in the headshell than other carts, and I ended up very slightly bending (or so I thought) two of the four cartridge posts on the Ekos--you know, the gold plated pins that emerge from the tonearm where you install cartridge leads. If I disturbed the wiring connection inside the Ekos, could that explain the distortion I'm hearing?
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I would absolutely try a different TT.
The Sowter DCR should be about dead nuts on between sides, so I'd also look to be sure all of that wiring is correct and that the same loading resistors are present on both channels.
It does sound like you're narrowing things down a bit though!
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How about cranking up the tracking Force to a reasonable limit and giving that a test... John
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I went up to 2.5 grams on the Hana but heard no difference. Since I heard the same distortion through the Koetsu, I now think the problem is not the cartridge. I'm leaning toward the wiring inside the tonearm. I have a talent for destroying tonearm wiring--done it at least twice over the years, and this might well be the third time--so I'm going to take this opportunity to get the Ekos rewired. Even if it turns out not to be the source of the distortion I'm hearing, the guy who is going to rewire it will use a single run of Cardas wires from cartridge leads to RCA jacks: no DIN plug or headshell plug/pins, which will make fitting cartridges onto the headshell a gazillion times easier. Fitting most cartridges onto an Ekos is like trying to fit into the pants you wore in high school.
I'm going to contact Sowter about the SUT impedance mismatch. I desoldered the low-measuring one's output wires and even out of circuit they measure half what the other one does.
Eventually, I'll get all this figured out and, when I do, I'll post a follow-up. I suspect it's going to be awhile though.
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Ooo, I'll have to look into that rewiring. I have an Ittok and it's a nightmare for cartridge fitment.
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What I was thinking was not so much a tracking issue but if there is a electro/mechanical issue in the arm itself, cranking up the tracking force could act as bias and maybe generate a data point... John