Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Speakers => Topic started by: Dr. Toobz on July 01, 2013, 07:57:55 AM
-
I've owned a pair of Klipsch Heresy III's since early 2010, and they've never really "wowed me," beyond playing them for the first time after having used cheap towers and bookshelf speakers for most of my life. Since then, I have developed a love/hate relationship: I love that they are very sensitive and can be driven with very little power, and I love how they can be played at very low volumes and still sound halfway decent, but I hate their lack of imaging, how fussy they are about room placement, their weird size (too small to be floorstanders, too large for bookshelves), and one-note bass. Their flaws are becoming more and more pronounced, now that I have a great speaker amp (Stereomour 45) and a very small, urban living room with bamboo wood floors. There's practically no place to put the speakers to begin with, and no matter where I do put them, they look and sound out of place. I can't get far enough away from them to develop a sound image, so everything sounds like it's coming from inside of the box. There's also no center image to speak of, and resultantly, no dimensionality to the sound. Also, because they practically have to be placed in corners due to how short the living area is (8ft?), they are very boomy in the bass.
Which brings me to my question: I've lustfully eyeballed Clark's Orca speakers since they were much cheaper, and keep debating whether I should go that route. My past experiences with single-driver speakers weren't good: I could always hear the whizzer ringing at certain frequencies, and they just sounded "shouty" and harsh to me. To this day, I can watch a YouTube video of single-driver speakers and even via the crappy camera microphones, can hear what I consider to be overly pronounced midrange and a honky, harsh quality. I'm attracted to the beautiful finish of the Orcas, the simplicity of not having a crossover, the possibly of great 3-D imaging, and the opportunity to support a home-grown business. For others that own these speakers, how do they compare to other single-range models? Do they really overcome most of the downfalls of that methodology? If so, will a 45 run these things in a small room, or would I have to go back to 2A3's?
Again, most of what I play on speakers is classic, instrumental jazz, along with some classical piano and the occasional Beatles record. I save the heavy metal and other obnoxiously loud rock music for headphones (much to the relief of my neighbors, I'm sure). I guess what I am looking for is a speaker that just "disappears" into the room, leaving a jazz quartet or piano in its place. My Klipsch boxes might be efficient, but you never forget that you are listening to speakers.....
I should mention that at least initially, I would run these without a sub. I don't need a ton of deep bass - I just want what is there to be clearly separated, not boomy and puffy like what I get from the Klipsch speakers if every parameter isn't carefully adjusted. A matching sub could be purchased later on. Also, I'll have to admit to not caring for the aesthetics of the wooden stands - I'd prefer metal. Has anybody used the Orcas with such equipment?
Opinions would be appreciated!
-
Angelo, in spite of the fact that I have not owned Orca's, I still have had the experience with a few single driver speakers. The problem that you mention was so unattractive to me, that I almost gave up on the concept. I mean, no crossover, great, efficiency, great, midrange bite, not so great, even annoying. In my case, I ended up with a set of Decware ZOB speakers that have none of that midrange nastiness. I'm hoping that you are right about the Orca's as well, we need single driver design to shift into the next gear.
-
IIRC, Clark offers a trial period with the Orcas, so you can return them if you find that they aren't what you're looking for.
From what you describe, you have a smaller space and sensitive neighbors, so Orcas paired with 45's might be just the ticket.
-PB
-
I know there's only so much one can hear through a video camera's microphone and YouTube, but I find myself wishing that somebody out there had taken some video of their Orcas in action. There doesn't appear to be any when I search, but there's more than enough videos of awful-sounding*, shout-laden Fostex 8" DIY speakers in back-loaded horns ;D
Any Chicago-area Bottleheads have a pair of Orca's hooked up? As an aside, I know that Jim R. is a big fan of these speakers, so I hope he'll chime in with some comments!
(*only my opinion, of course)
-
Just my 2 cents. I have had a different experience with Heresys than expressed by others here. Paired with paramours and FPIII, I get great imaging. I did change the crossovers to those sold by Bob Crites (sp?). Maybe rebuilding or replacing the crossovers/capacitors in the crossovers will help.
-
Hmmm, lets see. You have a real "poser" here. I believe the strengths of the Klipsch are the sensitivity and dynamics. As you mention imaging is not it. I believe that the lack of time alignment between the drivers causes this lack of phase coherence. At the last VSAC I heard time aligned horns and they had incredible imaging.
The Orcas are extremely coherent. Well, duh! A single driver. But it is a small single driver. I believe that is a key factor to their coherence. They act as a point source at even close distances.
I can say that a 45 will satisfy my listening preferences (mid 80dB) in a 16' X 23' room with the Orcas. No shout, no muss no fuss. They disappear!
Bob, you got Crites right! That is a significant improvement but it still has the phase problems.
-
Grainger, I think you hit it on the head - it's a time alignment issue. The room is small and full of reflections, the speakers sit low to the floor on risers, and even if not corner-loaded, they're never far from a wall. Plus, the floors are wood. All of this adds up a to poorly controlled situation - no wonder why the little things sound so strange in my new place.....
EDIT: I'll add that in addition to the possibility of reflections and sounds ending up at my ears at different times, the three drivers don't seem well aligned in the Klipsches. Certainly, the transitions between the woofer, squawker, and tweeter don't seem that smooth - so it's a double-whammy.
-
I just went to a Bottlehead meetup a couple of week ago and got to experience a bunch of single drivers, including the orcas. I can say that I thought the orcas to be the clear winner in terms of imaging and ease of listening. I remember saying they were "like butter." I don't mean they are great with corn. ::) I mean really smooth and rich. super wide soundstage. No harshness whatsoever. All of the single drivers suffered from a lack of dynamics, but I don't think you'll be bothered with that at normal volumes and with jazz.
Whatever you get, post back!!
-
I know there's only so much one can hear through a video camera's microphone and YouTube, but I find myself wishing that somebody out there had taken some video of their Orcas in action.
We're on it!
-
Some videos as requested!
Oscar Peterson- On Green Dolphin Street
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHoyoC3d82s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0mdda_-q3M
From Daft Punk Random Access Memories
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QnPeo1B1oE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhUOlXpxz6Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQBP39DVAQg
-
Ok now! Are the Martinis a nod to Dan? What is that under the sideways Orcas? That isn't the official Orca sub.
Thank you for playing something I am very familiar with. I know that was your intention. The second selection is not familiar but I will fix that soon.
-
Yes, Clark has taken over Martini duties. I have retired from them. Dry for 40 days now, and feeling great. Jogging around 9 miles a week, hiking on the weekends, lost five lbs. so far, sleeping 7 hours a night instead of 10, and find myself motivated to accomplish far more during the day.
-
Good for you Dan!
-
I used to love horns, back in the day. I built some Speakerlabs with tweeter and midrange horns. I remember them sounding pretty amazing.
Now, I would go with efficient ribbons if I had the choice. Expensive, but, they are getting more affordable thanks to China. I would like to build a ribbon based system with cones for the bass and biamp them. I guess I could try that with my maggies, but not sure how much power the pseudo ribbon demands. More projects! - never ending!
-
OK, I'll bite...why the seemingly random clip-length in the YouTube videos? And why are all but one so short?
-
Molly, thanks for the videos! I have that same Oscar Peterson recording, so I was able to get a good sense for what these speakers "do" to the sound versus listening to the recording straight through headphones. The Orcas seem to throw a very balanced sound, and are surprising in that a dinky 3" driver is doing all that work!
These certainly will be under consideration this summer....
-
Molly, thanks for the videos! I have that same Oscar Peterson recording, so I was able to get a good sense for what these speakers "do" to the sound versus listening to the recording straight through headphones. The Orcas seem to throw a very balanced sound, and are surprising in that a dinky 3" driver is doing all that work!
These certainly will be under consideration this summer....
Sure thing! Thanks for prompting us to finally get around to making some videos.
OK, I'll bite...why the seemingly random clip-length in the YouTube videos? And why are all but one so short?
Adam, the Oscar Peterson sounded the most musically captivating for the full three minutes because no two seconds are the same. The Daft Punk song was repetitive so I only included the few musical motives of their songs, and spared the viewers the loops.
The different POV's were to give a rough idea of room acoustics and miking tradeoffs. The only way I got acceptable sound through my iPhone's internal microphone was through close miking with the system playing at low enough volumes to not overdrive it. So I'm just showing a few different methods to keep the iPhone mike from distorting with the different POV's.
I should really use an actual microphone for the next recording. The magic of the EML 45's and deep bass of the system just doesn't come through the iPhone mike. But then again, high fidelity was not asked for... Just something to compare to the shouty single driver designs that are also on YouTube. So I'm fine with the idea of "sandbagging" them a bit by using just an iPhone mike.
Cheers,
Clark
-
OK, got it. That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation!
-
I'm a recent transplant to Chicago and own a pair of Orcas plus a sub. Id be willing to arrange a listening session one afternoon or evening if you are interested in getting a live demo.
-
Thanks, Thomas!
Hope you're settling well into Chicago. My dad and I used to live in the Hancock building. Gotta be about the friendliest city in the states!
Cheers,
Clark
-
Angelo,
You have PM.
As far as your questions, a "nude" pair of Orcas is just divine with acoustic jazz, and no worries with a 45 in your size room with such music. Don't expect to do Mahler or Bruckner though. Also, don't write off the sub as this is not a typical sub -- no boom, no room loading issues, easy to get seamless integration by simply adjusting the level, crossoverr point and moving the sub around a bit and it can easily be set to just fill in the bottom notes.
Everything is beautiful with a setup like this -- soundstage, ambient recording venue recovery, tone, etc. Drum kits, pianos, acoustic bass all sound wonderful, and the best tenor sax I've ever heard -- as long as you don't push them beyond their limits.
-- Jim