Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Digital => Topic started by: Doc B. on May 13, 2014, 09:56:41 AM
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We have been working with the numbers on this project. As with many no holds barred kinds of projects costs have crept up from our initial estimate. A shocker came today, a new requirement for us to commit to a minimum advance purchase of 250 of the programmable oscillator chips on top of the 150 XMOS usb chips we had already been told we would need to commit to purchasing. Those advance orders will cost many thousands of dollars before we order the DAC boards and cabinet parts. When we consider the price breaks based upon volume for the board production it looks like an initial production of a minimum of 20 units will get our customers the best price. At that quantity we can offer the kit for $1550, and we'll just hope that the first units will be so enthusiastically received that we'll sell enough kits to use all those chips and recoup our investment! I recently compared the Bottlehead DAC running from an inexpensive Mac Mini to a $3000 high res music server from a well known company and frankly it was not much of a contest. Our DAC was smoother, more resolved, had a much blacker background and just plain sounded more real. So I think the proposed price is a bargain considering the sound quality.
What we would like to propose is a Kickstarter for this project, with a requirement of 20 commitments of $1550, a total of $31,000. The Kickstarter will protect everyone, no one's card gets charged unless we make the goal. And of course the project does not happen without the full 20 commitments. We will give regular progress reports on the completion of the run. Getting the chips pre-programmed takes something like 8 weeks before the boards can be assembled, and then we have to program the FPGA on the assembled boards once we receive them from the board manufacturer. So if we make the goal we would have a delivery date of about 12-15 weeks after the Kickstarter ends - hopefully followed by 20 rave reviews!
We're very interested to hear how those who are seriously considering the DAC feel about the project at this proposed price and time frame.
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I think kickstarter is a good platform for soliciting committed buyers. Spreading the word on popular audio blogs and forums would help spread to word to a wider audience of potential buyers. The price point seems reasonable considering the supposed performance level of the product.
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+1
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Would our cards then be charged when the DAC ships 12-15 weeks from now or sooner?
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Would our cards then be charged when the DAC ships 12-15 weeks from now or sooner?
Payments are usually processed when the Kickstarter offer successfully meets or exceeds the target funding and closes. The funds are used to produce the product, then it is shipped.
Cheers,
Geary
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+1
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The $1550 is a bit higher than I had expected. I wonder if we can get 30 or so to commit if the start up cost could be spread out a bit more.
anyway I am in...John
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I will suggest that folks read up a bit about Kickstarter. They have a pretty structured way that a fundraiser works. The project fundraiser is promoted and then launched. Backers can pledge money up to a certain date. On that date either the project is ended for lack of enough pledges and no one's card is charged, or if the goal was met the pledges are processed, i.e., the backer's card is charged. The funds are made available for the project to go into production a couple of weeks later, and the product is delivered by a date which has been stated in the original fundraiser.
https://www.kickstarter.com/ (https://www.kickstarter.com/)
My bud Bob Bean just had a very successful Kickstarter for his Acoustic Stream wireless guitar interface for the iPhone.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1705772138/acoustic-stream-the-guitarists-wireless-4-in-1-com (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1705772138/acoustic-stream-the-guitarists-wireless-4-in-1-com)
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My wife already nixed me getting it when I thought (hoped) it would be around $1000. Now I may really have to wait. The price will remain at $1550, even after the fundraiser, right? That is, it won't go up?
Also, would you be taking orders for the 21st kit and on as soon as the Kickstarter makes it to the 20?
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Now that my Paramounts are done, I have my Paramours to sell. That's half way about.
Put me down for one.
Aural Robert
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I would love to be in on this and support the launch of an awesome product, but just don't have the money to pledge.
I really hope others will jump in though and think that a Kickstarter (or similar campaign) is a great idea.
If I can find a bunch of Aussies who need Cracks, S.E.X.s or Mainlines built for them perhaps I can scrounge together enough funds by working in the evenings building kits for friends and fellow music lovers.
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Been waiting too long...I'm in!
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Kickstarter is a good idea. I've funded a number of things that way, mostly musicians trying to get their albums out.
I'm interested in a the Bottlehead DAC. I'm loving my recently finished BeePre and am itching to fire up the soldering iron again. The $1550 price does give pause though. Especially since I already have a DAC. Can't really justify it other than "I WANT IT!!!"
How difficult a kit to build do you think it'll be?
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Assembly will be easy. The only soldering will be done when assembling a small PC board with the charging circuit on it and when wiring the switches and jacks. The main boards all connect with ribbon cables.
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Excuse me if i'm being a bit dim, but will that price be fixed going forward, or is that just what’s required on the basis of 20 units to get the project off the ground?
I'd like to say i'm in but i'll have to think long and hard over this, came in a bit more than i had anticipated. Kickstarter does sound like a good solution though.
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Count me in. I will raise the money somehow, possibly through selling stuff on eBay.
I may not have heard the DAC, but I believe in the Doc and the rest of the gang at Bottlehead. Willing to put my money where my mouth is. Remember, my serial number is 007. 8)
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Sadly, I'm out at that price. I was expecting 1 to 1.2k max. Too bad too, I've been waiting several years for this. :(
Anyway, I hope that those who participate will post your impressions of how it sounds here.
-- Natural Sound, bummed out in the high desert southwest.
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I'd prefer to deal with Bottlehead direct, but I'm cool with Kickstarter if that helps bring the DAC to market.
Either way I'm down for a unit for sure!
Chris
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To high for me unfortunately at the moment, I do think Kickstarter is a good way to proceed.
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It is more than I thought it would be, but I will probably participate in the Kickstarter campaign
Debra
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Count me in for one.
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With my recent experience with the DAC kind of stomping all over a $3000 music server I am tempted to put together a few more comparisons. Working now to see if I can schedule some time at the studio and compare against some of the D/A gear they are using there. If this works out perhaps we can schedule a listening session for Bay Area folks.
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Guys, please make this happen. I want to get one when I get the next contract job.
I have complete faith in Bottlehead and John.
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I think the Kickstarter Campaign is an inspired idea, and I'll find a way to back it.
I've had some less than ideal experiences with Kickstarter projects - late delivery, even as much as a year late, is a frequent problem - but I can't imagine that happening with this project.
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They normally have different levels of commitments to help raise funds I cant afford a dac but would happily stump up for a T shirt or cap!
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First thought: There is a huge difference in sales between certain perceptual breakpoints. A very large one of these is between $1499 and $1500. That isn't just a game people play to annoy you with change. If you float a product at both and check the numbers it is clear this is a discontinuity in human perception. You will sell far more for one dollar less. Or even one cent less. I, too, will have to give this more thought before committing at the higher price. Even though I'm sure that price is justified. However, for purposes of a potential Kickstarter, if there was any wiggle room to offer it at or below $1499 that could end up being a make or break for the campaign. Even if the campaign ends up being successful, this would make it much more so.
Second thought: Kickstarter works great to support nascent projects like this. However, turning things around, what happens if you have runaway success? If you can get several favorable comparisons against standalone DACs in the $3k+ range, it's not outside the realm of possibility. Light Harmonic Labs raised 1.2 million on IndieGoGo for the Geek Pulse DAC (much lower priced at base, but with all optional upgrades they ended up offering it approached $1k). The point is, if you ended up with 100+ orders instead of 20, could you handle that? Unless you enable limited reward levels - and I strongly recommend this - Kickstarter has no upper bound. Some campaigns have limited rewards imposing an upper bound on their commitment, and add additional limited categories with later delivery dates if the initial ones fill. This is probably your best model. The other issue with such a "runaway success" campaign is that even if your costs end up lower, Kickstarter doesn't let you modify existing reward levels to pass those savings on (or to entice additional buyers who might have been on the fence at the original price). Ergo, most runaway success campaigns end up offering additional bonuses or upgrades via stretch goals so backers get more as the project's marginal costs decrease.
I don't have clear answers, but wanted to at least bring these topics up for consideration before you go live.
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Nothing about the DAC project is simple. Would not have thought about the Kickstarter issues.
Any thoughts as to when you would do the ask?
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The point is, if you ended up with 100+ orders instead of 20, could you handle that?
The board manufacturer has indicated the ability to handle an order like this pretty easily, and we have to buy over 100 of the "custom" chips anyway, so this would only be marginally more difficult than 20.
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I'd still like to know what will happen to the price if the Kickstarter is a success. Will it go up, down, or stay the same?
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I'd still like to know what will happen to the price if the Kickstarter is a success. Will it go up, down, or stay the same?
There is a presumption that after the Kickstarter, there will be a product page on our website and the ability to purchase said product and receive it in 3-6 weeks (like our other kits). This may or may not be the case, as we have to balance what is roughly twice the cost for a small production run of these boards vs. trying to order the "right" large quantity.
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We have been manufacturing and selling kits for 20 years and we handle hundreds of orders each year. I'm not going to go into details on numbers, but suffice it to say we have had single day sales that were as big as a regular month's sales and we delivered. Based upon our limited experience I feel that quantity is a good thing. I would love to deliver to 100 people out there who are ready to jump in on this DAC.
Regarding t-shirts, I think that is a great idea for funding a startup. I appreciate those who want to support the project that way, though I'm not sure if offering that kind of thing fits this model. We're an established company with a good track record simply trying to use Kickstarter as a very clear cut way to either get enough orders for a brand new, costly to produce product, or retire the idea with no hard feelings for our customers and no financial debacle for us.
Regarding the $_99 thing, I would respectfully ask you to look at our product pricing. You may gather from it that the Kickstarter launch would include such refinements. I appreciate the analysis, and particularly appreciate the folks who come forward to say they are in - that's the most important data point we are attempting to acquire.
@Sam, we do not at this time have any plans to lower the price. To quote an Allen Stone lyric -
push, pull, tear,
we can't stretch it any further
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Doc, another potential platform you could use is called Massdrop which does exactly what you are looking for. https://www.massdrop.com/how-it-works (https://www.massdrop.com/how-it-works)
You might want to explore this avenue as well.
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I'll probably sign up for this too. I really like the idea of more comparisons againts other DACs.
-Dave
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Jim Hagerman got four times what he was asking : https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1907446723/cornet3-a-diy-tube-phono-preamp. I'm pretty sure BH will also achieve it. BTW, Jim decided that he would take half the risk on himself, he said he would do the preamps even if he raised half the money he really needed (he calculated he needed around 22 k$ and was ready to ship the pres even if he got only 11K). And he offered to send some cables when the project reached 200%.
Good luck, I'm still not completely sure if I will spend so much money on a DAC, I mainly listen to LPs lately.
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I'm gonna try and raise the funds, but I don't know. Doc, I was sure the price wouldn't be lowered; just worried a bit it might go up.
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I too would like it compared against other products, especially comercial offerings. It's getting expensive and at that point I would prefer to hear it in my system before taking the plundge. I don't have a lot of faith in digital products. Amps make senese and the Paramounts are a steal at their price point. For the DAC it's at the point I would want to hear other products in that range before committing on one.
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Doc, another potential platform you could use is called Massdrop which does exactly what you are looking for. https://www.massdrop.com/how-it-works (https://www.massdrop.com/how-it-works)
You might want to explore this avenue as well.
We have worked with Massdrop in the past twice, but are not planning to work with them in the future.
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Boy if Jim would cover half the cost for us that would be awesome. I think I have put around $15K into this project so far and we haven't even ordered any parts for production yet.
Massdrop is not the same as Kickstarter. They are about getting a manufacturer to give a deep discount on an existing product. We are capable of running our own "drops" and thus having control of delivery.
I understand the hesitance about a new digital product. That's why it took you guys years to talk me into doing this. I'm involved with what is considered one of the best sounding formats available (Tape Project) and thus I can't afford to put out a crap product in another medium. So this project was about "what's the best we can possibly do and still be at a realistic price?" from the start. For me it started with listening to and learning about products like the Pacific Microsonics Model 2, the Pyramix workstation and the Audeeva Conbrio. Three years and many prototypes later we feel we have reached the level we were shooting for. Hopefully some will find the product useful in their search for musical bliss.
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I guess comparisons are fine, but what do they really tell you when it is someone else's ears listening to someone else's system in someone else' room? I don't know.
But what I compare is my system before Bottlehead and then with the addition of each piece of Bottlehead gear. Now I compare my 'new' Bottlehead system (BeePre/Stereomour) with my previous Bottlehead system (Foreplay/Paraglow/Parabee). The one thing that has been constant is the VALUE of Bottlehead equipment. Doc and the team at Bottlehead have always work to give us the best possible equipment at the least possible cost. I have no doubt that a $1500 Bottlehead DAC will have a VALUE of $3000-$5000 or more.
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Dear Doc; That was a pretty generous survey of where BH has arrived in the development of the DAC. If I can get up to BHeadquarters soon, would a comparo between the BH DAC and the Oppo BDP 95 DAC be possible? Or have you already compared it with your BDP 103 at home?
In any case, I would add my name to the emerging list if it offers improvement vis-Ã -vis the Oppo.
Cheers for all you do! Hank in Eugene
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RPMac, I think comparisons are most helpful when people are considering multiple options to invest in (i.e. a Woo tube amp vs a Bottlehead tube amp vs maybe a Burson solid state - purely for a rough example). For that reason I think comparisons would be highly valuable here, particulary a range of them, because the price tag (circa $1500) means that it's a purchase decision that will likely be an either or as it's not a sum of money that many people will spend in multiples. I expect many people will be deciding to buy the BH DAC or a premium amp or a TOTL headphone so they'll need plenty of justification to choose the DAC over the possible alternatives available in this price range.
That said, I couldn't agree more with you about the continually brilliant quality and value delivered by Bottlehead's products. In some ways, the higher price tag has me excited because I know the project would have been scrapped already if the product didn't completely justify the price tag.
Now where are those spare coins I had??? ;)
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Count me in Doc!
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Pm sent
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I will eventually buy the DAC. In fact it will be my next Bottlehead purchase but I won't be able to join the kickstarter effort. I have been looking forward to this product for a long time but I have some medical bills to take care of first. I hope this kickstarter campaign is wildly successful. I know that John and everyone at Bottlehead have been working hard for over a year to bring this to life and they wouldn't release it if it wasn't worth two or three times the asking price. If that wasn't the case it would have been released a long time ago.
Ken
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Loquah, the way I look at these things is that the biggest factors in how a system "sounds" are the speakers, their inner action with room acoustics, and the perception of the listener. A person that likes warm and mellow is not going to be of the same opinion as someone that likes bright and detailed.
But, I stand corrected in that the comparison opinion of Doc and the Bottlehead team would be of great value because they are the ones that have "voiced" the gear we use and enjoy.
I understand that an almost 50% jump in projected price is something to think about, but we all know that Doc isn't going to put something out until it is right and worth having.
I'm not trying to get into Doc's business, but if he can get 20 or more of us to commit to buy and willing to pay up front, why does he need Kickstarter? Exposure???
My bottom line,( for Grainger's sake ;>D ), I want to see it happen.
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I understand that an almost 50% jump in projected price is something to think about, but we all know that Doc isn't going to put something out until it is right and worth having.
First of all, it's more like a 25% jump (Doc projected $1,000-1,200). And second, he also warned us that it was an estimate, and that he didn't want us to hold it against him if it went up.
I'm bummed it is higher, but by no means will I stop trying to get one. Brand loyalty has a whole new meaning with BH. And since digital is, after all, the future, this a DAC is a must.
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I'm not trying to get into Doc's business, but if he can get 20 or more of us to commit to buy and willing to pay up front, why does he need Kickstarter? Exposure???
It's more that Kickstarter is a really transparent way to organize this. We don't (yet) have the capabilities to easily run something like this where any customer could see the number of units sold, and know when the project is funded. For new customers who haven't bought from Bottlehead before, using Kickstarter as the middleman should provide some peace of mind.
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Thank you Robert!
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg7%2FGrainger49%2FSmiles%2FTipHat.gif&hash=e6ef7f0d5488d01ff7ef90294fc834dbd255538c)
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I'm gonna try and raise the funds, but I don't know. Doc, I was sure the price wouldn't be lowered; just worried a bit it might go up.
I don't believe Kickstarter would allow us to raise the price, even if we wanted to.
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So when is this going to happen? I know in my previous post I was on the fence, but I am on board now.
Don't want Grainger to miss out on this! :)
Debra
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I know Dan appreciates the startup support, and so do I.
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I am working with someone on their kickstarter today, to learn a little more about it. We will get it going as soon as I feel like I have everything in place.
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I'm gonna try and raise the funds, but I don't know. Doc, I was sure the price wouldn't be lowered; just worried a bit it might go up.
I don't believe Kickstarter would allow us to raise the price, even if we wanted to.
I meant once it's up on the site here.
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I meant once it's up on the site here.
As I mentioned before, it may not be available as a product to purchase after the kickstarter. That is uncertain at this point.
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Da Da Daaaaahhhhh, now all of us fence sitters are quivering even more. To commit sight unseen and ears unheard or to jump into the cold stream with all the other BH's, that is the question.
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To borrow a line from Mad Max:
"This is a threshold moment, Johnny. Step through."
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I meant once it's up on the site here.
As I mentioned before, it may not be available as a product to purchase after the kickstarter. That is uncertain at this point.
Oh, I thought you had to order 150 or more of a certain part and were using kickstarter to finance that initial buy. What would happen to the other 130 parts?
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Oh, I thought you had to order 150 or more of a certain part and were using kickstarter to finance that initial buy. What would happen to the other 130 parts?
Yes, the Kickstarter will finance the initial run and these obnoxious minimum order quantities. It will also give us the ability to produce the boards at an affordable price with sufficient guaranteed orders. We are going to do our best to keep the costs of the kit under control, which may mean that our overstock of DAC specific parts may sit on a shelf at the assembly house for a while.
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I think the Kickstarter scenario is a good way to get this going.
However, $1,500 is above the price that I can afford to spend right now. At that price, I would want to hear it first to make sure I can hear a difference.
My other concern is the battery. I know it is included because it helps with the sonic qualities, but what happens down the road when it needs replacing. Do we know that replacements will be available? If for some reason a suitable replacement can't be found for whatever reason, could the DAC run without a battery installed? I apologize if any of those battery questions have been previously answered. I must have missed them.
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My other concern is the battery. I know it is included because it helps with the sonic qualities, but what happens down the road when it needs replacing. Do we know that replacements will be available? If for some reason a suitable replacement can't be found for whatever reason, could the DAC run without a battery installed?
The battery is an SLA7-6. This is a very popular battery for uninterruptible power supplies used for computing, so they are generally widely available and should be in production for quite some time to come.
The DAC can be run without a battery installed, and there will be a switch position on the stock unit that would allow for this if you happen to need to replace the battery and are stuck waiting on shipping.
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Will there be a cap of 20 on the kickstarter? If you don't make it in, you have to wait till it (might) appear on the main site.
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There won't be a cap on the number of DACs that we will make. Kickstarter requires a set timeline for funding (say 30-60 days) after which point the project has either received enough funding and moves forward, or the project has not received enough funding and is dead.
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Thanks so much everyone for your input. It's pretty clear that we have plenty of people on board. I'm going to lock this thread and we will shift our focus to getting set up for the kickstarter.