Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: williaty on March 10, 2014, 05:02:54 PM
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For years now, I've had a stereo system that was built around a Foreplay II with Sweet Whispers, Auricaps, and the C4S mod. It was my first, and therefore best, audio system. Then I ran out of space in my living area at that time and had to pack it all way. A few years into that silent wasteland, I bought a Crack with Speedball, some HD-600s, and threw some really nice tubes at it. I had a feeling that the Crack setup was much better than the stereo setup, but there was a couple year gap in there so I wasn't sure. Well, new house and I set my stereo back up. Sure enough, it's massively lacking compared to the Crack. I'm trying to figure out how to fix it on the budget I have (or don't have, really).
My specific thoughts on listening to the stereo system as it is right now are:
1) Too much buzz and hum from the FPII (I've always thought this but the hum/buzz measurement was always considered just fine by those in the know back in the day)
2) The stereo imaging is really much better than I remember and in fact much better than the headphone setup
3) The resolution of detail is ok, probably on par with or slightly behind the Crack
4) The music is incredibly hollow and lifeless.
It's really #4 that's driving me nuts.
The Quickie is doable, cost wise. The question is whether it's an upgrade from the FP II. I have the Sweet Whispers built in the "quiet" configuration (-20 to -50dB? It's been more than a decade so I'm not sure), I have the output of the FP II padded down -10dB, and I have the input of my power amp (solid state) padded down I think -15dB. So, as you can see, the reduced gain of the Quickie is completely fine and, in fact, I'd love to get rid of the hum and buzz of the FP II. Heck, for that matter, I could go with the Submissive without running out of gain if you guys think I might like that better than the Quickie.
I dunno, enough rambling. What do you guys think I should do?
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In MY system, my modified FP2 is noticeably more dynamic and detailed than my Quickie. I have PIO's in both, the FP2 has SW's, PS choke, C4S. My FP2 is not noisy with Paramours into 102dB/W horns. But , again, that is in my system
Cheers,
Geary
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What's in the rest of the system?
Generally, yes, the Quickie is going to have more body to it than a FP-II. If you can find one, a used FP-III is also a nice item to look for, but they are pretty difficult to find.
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Apple Laptop w/BitPerfect>High Resolution Technologies MusicStreamer II+ DAC>FPII>Cambridge Audio P500 power amp>Axiom Audio M22Ti speakers.
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Topologically, the Crack and the Foreplay look very similar on paper. For your own references, you can use a 1/4" to RCA adapter cable and run the Crack as a preamp. That might help you make some conclusions about what's going on in your system.
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The Crack will swing enough voltage into a 40kOhm input impedance and not have frequency response changes?
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Yeah, the Crack will barely know anything is even plugged into the outputs with a 40K load.
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I'll try that tomorrow. My wife's asleep upstairs and this house transmits sound like an SOB. One of the many things we have to fix over the next few decades.
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Quick question. Did you try putting a fresh set of 12AU7's in the FPII? They could just be worn out.
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This is a very good question, and I would like to know what Foreplay III preamp users have to say. I may be the only one here that has somewhat of an aversion to a batteries-only setup, because I just hate to have to buy them and change them. Don't get me wrong, I do love the Quickie sound...and I do actually need it because I think that both my Crack and my Stereomour benefit from the preamp, because with the Beyer 880 600 Ohm version, the Crack alone does not get up to the volume needed, and the Stereomour comes a bit short, too. Everything else is hooked up to power, so I would very much like to get my hands on a preamp that does, too. I don't know why Bottlehead don't have anything in between the Quickie and the BeePree. I wish the Foreplay III were still around. Has the Foreplay been sacrificed just so the BeePree would sell? I am somewhat reluctant to go for such an expensive preamp, which in addition to the original cost of the kit will set me back another $200 to 300 to get a set of replacement tubes. Will there be a Foreplay IV? I am sorry for steering your thread slightly off topic...
Falko
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We have a prototype that is between the Quickie and the BeePre. It is more like Quickie and BeePre than Foreplay. As soon as we release it we will be asked why we don't have an amp to go with it, since it will be in line with Reduction as a mid line product and there is not a midline power amp at this point to go with that phono amp and preamp. I think that is a valid question, so we are holding on to the preamp circuit until we have the whole system worked out.
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Hey Doc,
I thought the Stereomour was your midline power amp? I am glad to hear that there is light at the end of the tunnel...:-)
Thanks,
Falko
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I lived with a modded Foreplay II for years and really loved it. I got the quickie for fun. My expectations were low due to the price but also sort of high since Bottlehead doesn't make crap. The quickie blew me away and had lower noise than my Foreplay II! Get it and the PJCCS and you won't be sorry. Really, for the money, it's a steal.
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Stereomour is an integrated amp. The questions were about separate power amps and preamps.
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We have a prototype that is between the Quickie and the BeePre. It is more like Quickie and BeePre than Foreplay. As soon as we release it we will be asked why we don't have an amp to go with it, since it will be in line with Reduction as a mid line product and there is not a midline power amp at this point to go with that phono amp and preamp. I think that is a valid question, so we are holding on to the preamp circuit until we have the whole system worked out.
Any rough ideas of what price point the midline power amp would be? I think there would be a lot of interest for something like that. Personally my amp is a solid-state, been curious about hearing what a tube amp could do for my system :) (and the paramounts are just a little too much lol).
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As soon as I mention that we are even thinking of a potential product I will be asked how much, what's it called, when will it be shipping and will a Goldppoint attenuator and Mundorf caps fit. ;)
I will probably have a better idea after we actually come up with an idea for an amp, and I will let you guys know.
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lol sorry! Curiosity got the best of me 8) Is it really expensive to run tube amps? I know the tubes definitely run more than preamp tubes, do they get replaced often?
Dave
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I spent yesterday and today listening to the system and swapping back and forth between using the Foreplay II and Crack as the preamp.
The Crack wins hands down. By a HUGE margin.
So, that at least tells me that I have to replace the Foreplay with something better. The problem with that is pricing. With the yawning gulf in the Bottlehead product lineup between the Quickie and the BeePree, I'm not sure what to do. I'm afraid that at $135 for the Quickie+CSS, it'll be less than I'm hoping for. At ~$1100, there's simply no way I can do the BeePre. I'm concerned about branching out to something other than Bottlehead brand because I think the Bottlehead stuff provides astonishing value for money (so anything else of similar price is going to be worse) and I tend to like the way Doc voices his stuff.
That leaves me looking at a Crack as a preamp.
Is there any good reason I shouldn't just buy another Crack+Speedball kit, build it with RCA jacks instead of a headphone jack, slap a Clear Top and 5998 in it (which is the tube setup I like now in my existing Crack), and build an outboard box to house an input selector (as I don't think there's room in the Crack chassis)? I mean is there any technological reason why using the Crack as a preamp leaves something to be desired?
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You could certainly convert a Crack with some RCA jacks. Would it be better than a Quickie? Depends on what you are looking for. The Crack will have more grunt, the Quickie will be more refined on top. Crack with a submissive might be a nice setup too. Just set the Crack volume knob wide open and use the Submissive attenuator. Actually Quickie with a Submissive could be nice too.
FWIW we had a meeting today to discuss the topic of what kind of amp we could make to go with the intermediate DHT preamp design we have worked up. We came up with an idea that is a little different for us, and everyone thought we should give it a shot. So cross your fingers that it does what we want it to and maybe we will have that intermediate preamp/amp combo sometime this year.
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To be honest, I've wondered about just using the Submissive. With the volume knob on the Crack wide open right now, I still have about 25dB of attenuation in the system and it's plenty loud enough. I've just been worried that going to a passive will make it sound lifeless if what I like about the sound happens to be due to the tubes.u
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I would offer my opinion, having been in the same situation. I have an original Foreplay (all the mods), a multi switched fully modded Quickie, and a just breaking in Crack Preamp; all in use with a Submissive attenuator before my amp. I've done the A,B,C comparison; bought better cable and repeated, switched out speakers and repeated. I would say that it all depends on the completeness (synergy, I know, I hate those audio "zero meaning" descriptions too) of your system. I use horn speakers that are pretty efficient. To match the best sound I've had to just sit and listen. My digital source sounds best with no pre, just source, dac, submissive and amp. Vinyl has needed the extra grunt of the Crack Pre so it is Table - Seduction- Crack P- Submissive (I listen to everything - blues to funk to classical to show tunes). My Quickie sounds best before my super tweeters, nice and clean. It's a bit of a bother having all these big azz boxes on my shelf but I'm on the way to consolidating some of these builds.
I would say that a basic Crack Pre beats out a modded Foreplay, I, II, or III (in my opinion). The comparison of Quickie to Crack Pre is pretty cheap to try and if you don't like it you can go back to using the Crack as a headphone amp or make a Quickie headphone amp.
I do know that you should have a Submissive, period. Just mod it for more inputs as needed. It's beat out all of the other attenuators in the volume range I listen.
I don't know about the upcoming Bottlehead offerings, my beer budget determines my incremental upgrades and I have too much ADHDOCD to wait on some of the delivery times but if you can swing it the BeePre may be the upgrade you are searching for, it is the top of the line for a reason.
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Any rough ideas of what price point the midline power amp would be? I think there would be a lot of interest for something like that. Personally my amp is a solid-state, been curious about hearing what a tube amp could do for my system :) (and the paramounts are just a little too much lol).
We have ideas on paper and a rough prototype or two, but nothing beyond that. Said amplifier needs to be priced less than a Stereomour and more than a Quickie.
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I should point out that we must still build at least one prototype pair and listen to them, to determine whether this idea is total crap or not.