Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Phono => Topic started by: ChrisM on June 09, 2010, 04:24:32 PM
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I've been listening to exclusively digital for decades now. Currently steaming from HD through outboard DAC or steaming off internet, etc. I lurk on so many forums reading about whatever that really can't imagine posting. But I'm posting anyway this time. See, one item on my bucket list is this: find out just why it is vinyl lovers are.... so in love with vinyl. Mostly I just wonder about that. But then I did something spontaneous (rare).
A couple of months ago I took my old, 25 y.O. cheap Yamaha P-300 out of the garage attic and put it in my basement. I don't know why it is I've held on to it. I just left it there to tease me. Then last weekend I set it up. Amazingly my Onkyo PR-SC885 has a phono input. I must be the only individual in the universe to use the phono section on this thing. Anyway, I plugged the turntable audio output into the Onkyo, put one of the last four LP's I kept on the table, put the tone arm down and sound came out of the speakers.
I didn't think I would hear anything really. The thing has been in the attic of an unheated, unconditioned garage in Vermont for more than 20 years. Nevertheless sound comes out. And actually, it's not that horrible.
I do not know a soul around here who even has a vinyl set up. Well, maybe one person. But that's it. While walking around Burlington Vermont last evening (we're having our annual Discover Jazz Fest) I bought a couple of used jazz LP's at the one and only vinyl shop in this little town. I started playing them when I got home and I'm playing them some more. The sound is distinctly different than a digital version of the same tracks streamed off Rhapsody. First report: I wouldn't give up listening to digital for the sound this thing makes.
I expect this set up can never reveal why it is that vinyl lovers are in love with vinyl. I am assuming the two weakest links that limit the sound are the cartridge and the phono stage in the Onkyo. The table is of course inferior but I doubt that is the weakest link.
I have a question to put out to the forum that is this. Is a 25 Y.O, cartridge the likely weakest link? Is there a reasonably priced cartridge that I could consider to replace it with that would fit on this arm and begin to reveal what it is that makes seemingly normal people love vinyl? Should I give up?
ChrisM
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Oh. I thought you meant vinyl like this: http://fetishrainwear.com/ (http://fetishrainwear.com/) (probably NSFW.)
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It sounds like the addiction is taking hold.
It's hard to say what the weakest link is with the gear you have, but if you shop carefully and build what you can, a good vinyl setup can be had for very reasonable prices. A used Project Debut and a used Seduction could probably be had for 500-600 bucks and provide a lot of enjoyment *and* provide a bit of a glimpse into the magic of vinyl.
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I myself would get a used VPI HW-19 (MKII at least, MKIII or IV preferably). Can get a HW-19 jr for around $600 if you are patient. And very upgradeable.
A proper phono stage will make a world of difference. And make sure that your records are very clean and free of dust. Same for your stylus.
Next make sure your arm and cartridge are set up properly. This can be the most daunting task for those just getting into vinyl. The world of difference between the sound of a in-proper and proper setup is staggering. Goole turntable setup, will get a bevy of info. Are several very good forums of nothing but vinyl nuts as well with tons of info on setup and cartridges and the such.
Warning, once you start you will not stop. So welcome to your newest addiction.
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Thanks for all for your information and fashion suggestions. Yes, my understanding is very rudimentary. e.g. if the arm doesn skip or skate I would assume the arm is set up well enough. Sounds like a good deal more than that. I am trying to falll down this rabbit hole very slowly. I need the sound will encourage me along the way.
This my be reading too much into the replys so far. Two possible TT options have been suggested at reasonable entry level cost. My take away is the P-300 I have exhumed from attic probably isn't up to the task of showing me the potential of vinyl. I'm not surprised. It didn't compel me to stay with vinyl either.
It makes sense to me that a dedicated phono stage probably is necessary to show promise. I never expected the phono stage in the Onkyo I use for movie video/audio is where they spend all the bucks of the design :-) I'm actually amazed it even has a phono stage and suspect I might be one of three consumers who might have actually tried to use it. My digial sytem is digital stream into AN DAC into a PP tube amp. Speakers are home built MLTL using Jordan JX92.
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Chris,
Sounds to me like you do know why those who have it love vinyl. You have heard it.
Come visit me in Knoxville and I can show you why I love vinyl. But the key is that you get some music that moves you and play it.
I completely agree with you that the weakest links now are the cartridge (the stylus is probably worn and the suspension too soft) and the phono section. Not that they are that weak. But I do worry about the stylus damaging new acquisitions. I strongly believe a vintage table arm combination can give 90% of the sound of a top notch table and arm. The biggest differences can be had from a new cartridge, which after all makes the audio signal.
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If you really want to hear why then you need to find someone with a properly set up turntable and listen. Check local hifi dealers.
What convinced me was hearing a stereo that was waaay beyond me. But the sound was so much more life-like and full-bodied that it just absolutely trounced digital.
When I was able to I saved my money (and ate Ramen noodles for 2 months!) and bought the best table and cartridge I could afford at the time. I got a Rega P25 and eventually settled on a Shure V15xMR. (Sadly, both are now discontinued)
10 years later I'm still loving that combo. I don't play it all of the time but when I do it's really fun. Some music just doesn't sound right unless it's on vinyl.
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Try a Shure M97XE. A great little cartridge. As Grainger often says, the cartridge is the most important part of the set-up, something I have come to believe. The Shure is a standard entry level cartridge into the world of good sound and has an upgrade stylus option from a 3rd party if you get interested. Next, when that really whets your appetite, buy a Seduction. Then, when you are really, ready, get a vacuum record cleaner. They make a massive, massive difference.
Away from the purely sound part of it, vinyl is fun. It is retro, it is a blast to peruse and buy. The record covers are neat to look at while you listen. You can't buy more music cheaper, especially if you like classical at all.
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Paul, poster Paully, has a Shure/Rega table & arm, an Eros, Foreplay and Paramounts. He has reported that he has been enjoying his vinyl more than CDs lately, and so am I. It may be something in the air or water.
Since he is headed here this weekend, we will gorge ourselves with vinyl this weekend. We have 5 or 6 places to buy and then listen as late into the night as my wife will allow.
I might play a few CDs for things that I don't have on vinyl. I'm not going to spend $120 for a vinyl version of Alison Krauss' Forget About It.
Edit: Just for yucks I checked the SACD, $150. I'll be glad I have a CD I paid $9 delivered.
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Grainger, many thanks for warning me about possibly damaging those records with that old cartridge on my P-300. I was so amazed to hear anything after exhuming the TT that concern never occurred to me. Your information and encouragement are helpful.
My friend who has a TT actually has the Project-Debut made similar recommendation. He brought it to my house once a couple of years ago. He listens through an old 1960's Fisher stereo. I really do not know another soul around here who is playing vinyl. But obviously that used record store I went to the other night must have others. I may try lurking outside the entry and follow people... Haha.
Sounds like you guys have a great weekend planned. Do not be surprised if I take you up on the offer to listen to your system one day should I arrange a trip in your direction.
Thanks,
Chris
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Chris,
I'm glad you are getting into your vinyl rig. There are a lot of fine, and extremely fine cartridges out there. Jumping back to my audio sales days the most non-linear and therefore personal preference components out there are the transducers: Cartridges and Speakers. So each is a matter of personal taste. I'd say that spending $300 on a cartridge will bring you more joy than buying a new table for that price, again my personal opinion. Many will disagree; but not here as this is the friendliest site you will find.
And where are you hiding (I read Vermont, Hmmmm...., this Southern boy knows nothing about Vermont)? I'm in Knoxville now and have a selection of used vinyl shops. (Hey, I thought I was in the boonies when I moved here, I'm from Atlanta {5 million people all driving on the Interstates at the same time}) I can recommend an email or link to sellers here who I strongly recommend if you want to get some "treasures" from your past on vinyl. That is one thing that will nail down the vinyl experience for you.
I would gladly host any Bottlehead here for BBQ, brown liquor, music and tubes. Feel free to PM me. I'm an old fart, retired and enjoying my Bottlehead system. Paul has become a close friend through the BHBB.
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I'd say that spending $300 on a cartridge will bring you more joy than buying a new table for that price, again my personal opinion.
If the table is off pitch enough, the cartridge wont help so much ;)
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Don't be afraid to just browse and talk to people while you are doing it! That comes across as a lot less creepy than standing out in front of the story and saying "hey dude, do you like vinyl"?
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Paully: good point. I'll try striking up a conversation in the shop first :-)
Grainger: Well, I'm fairly in the boonies here. I'm an engineer working for IBM at their Essex Junciton plant (outside Burlington). I live in a rural community nearby. Have deer, wild turkeys, fox, moose, and a lot of other wildelife that visit the backyard regularly. There's a family of black bear down the road a few miles. And I live on the paved section of our road! Retirement is possible next year or another year or two.
Population of the region is around 100K. My town has maybe a population of 3000. All the hifi stores have disappeared from here. And if there's more than a few folks listening to music through tube equipment I'd be amazed. But you never know. At least we have a pretty decent jazz fest. Pretty good music scene for a small place.
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Apparently there are some audiophiles running around in Burlington:
http://forums.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?lclub&1044679261&openflup&11&4
I think if you do a search in the Asylum and Google using area cities that are within driving distance you will locate some audio geeks to talk to. I found this with a quick search using "Burlington VT Audio Society". So a more methodical and dedicated search using more / different keywords and more area cities should get you there. And vinyl lovers will certainly be in those groups. Vinyl Destination (I assume that is the store) has some decent discussion in the Vinyl Asylum as a good place to buy. Couldn't hurt to ask the store owner questions about vinyl, what he listens on, are there any dedicated listeners around who are friendly...
Anyway, good luck!
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I was not able to find much about the p300 but from what I could gather it is a pretty standard 80s automatic TT. I was trying to find some info on the arm for you, but was unable to come up with much. Some of those 80s TTs have proprietary cartridges on them so you have to buy replacement styluses direct from the manufacturer. Which in this case isn't a huge deal, they still sell them for about $30, but probably not the best sounding out there. I was unfortunately unable to find if the arm can be adjusted for tracing force and angle. Some of those auto tables are not.
The biggest issue with that era of decks is the heavy use of plastic in both the tables and arms. Makes things sound hollow and like someone is playing music at the end of a tunnel. Can be attenuated with proper damping and mass loading but almost impossible to get rid of.
And I think that once you start really looking you will be surprised at the amount of audio geeks in that area. If you were in Okinawa for some reason I would invite you over to listen to my rig (HW-19 MKV, BEZ, Eros, Paramour, Aiko Horns)but that would be a hell of a flight to listen to some records.
On a side not I would not suggest putting a $300 cart on that table. The entry level Shure and Denon carts sound good enough that most anybody will immediately see how good vinyl can sound for a fraction of the price. And until you get the hang of setting up an arm and cart you could very well destroy a stylus or two in the process (I know I did, but I can be pretty ham fisted sometimes).
If you send me some pics of the arm and table I can help you get the best out of what you have (wish google was of more help). And check out vinylengine. Lots of good info there.
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I got a brain wave reading Paul's post. If there is a vinyl shop there, there is a vinyl market. Whoever buys there has a table! There have to be closet vinyl-philes around.
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Paully, a terriffic suggestion. Thanks a ton. I will follow up on this. Yes, I am starved of interaction with other enthusists of hifi out here in the hinterland. But as you have illustrated, there are some more of us. I just have to do some research and poke around a bit to find them.
Chris
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First, thanks to all who have replied, and given thought and advise.
I had a small detour recently when a *new in box* purchase of a MH 2.2 turned out not to be new, missing the manual, anti-skate counter weight, a scratched up cover, and debris on the TT felt. I sent it back and the seller refunded in full. Life is full of detours.
I decided to try a less all-or-nothing approach and ordered a Shure M97XE cartridge to see if I could make the playback more pleasing. The long time it took to get hear gave me time to reseach how to align a cartridge on a TT, something I've never done before. It finally came, I did my best for a firstime alignment and off I went listing to the 5 vinyl albums I have.
The sound has improved a lot. I can say genuinely say the music has become more involving. I haven't done any A-B vinyl to digital yet but eventually will. I don't know how much time to allow the cartridge to break in. And I playing this thing though the built in phono preamp input of a low end pre-pro is not ideal. Nevertheless, progress has been made.
I droped in on my neighbor last evening to get instructions for feeding their cats while on vacation. He showed me a box of vinyl he's about to get rid of and a Technic's SL-D2 TT from thirty years ago. I took the vinyl, most pop and rock stuff I never listen to anymore and the TT. I don't know if the TT is any better than my similar vintage Yamaha P-300. Right now I listening to an Eagle live album. I in the way-back-machine currently at a point about my sophmore year in college.
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Obviously you have a lot of things on your list you want to upgrade eventually. The Shure cartridge was a good buy. But when you are ready for the next level, the Jico replacement / upgrade styli for the Shure get a lot of really, really good reviews over on audioasylum so you don't have to buy a full on new cartridge, just upgrade the one you've got. Just a suggestion so you have options.
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Chris,
Us old guys upgrade in steps to hide what we are up to. For anyone getting the cash for a top notch turntable (these don't often include arms and never cartridges) is a major outlay. I'm still hanging on my old mantra that the cartridge makes the greatest difference in sound. I mean, the cartridge creates (generates) the voltage signal that gets amplified. So, obviously, it is the most additive part of the vinyl playback. The turntable and arm are mostly subtractive in their effects. So if you don't start with it in your cartridge the arm and table can not put it back.
Gee, that is almost a pearl of wisdom.
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This is an interesting journey. It's going to be a challenging process for me to decipher what the weakest links in the chain are and decide which one's I'm prepared to tackle. For instance, right now I'm well aware that this setup doesn't yet produce a sound stage nearly as good as I get with my digital setup. The center of the sound stage seems very dense to my ear. How much is the result of the cartridge, a first time cartridge alignment, the quality of the stylus, the phono preamp, a cheap TT, or something else? How long should I be allowing the cartridge to break-in before judging the sound critically to the degree to change something else in the chain? These are some of the things I guess I'll be wondering about for a while.
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Actually, I can tell right now what the weakest link in the chain is - that's the condition of the vinyl. I'm need to come up with a cleaning system for these things. I'll have a hard time noticing other improvements unless I fix this first.
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That is an absolutely accurate observation, cleaning makes a huge difference. I am using a Nitty Gritty, Grainger is using a VPI 16.5. I like his better but I should for 2.5 times the price. The Nitty Gritty does a fine job and I can recommend it for a cheap entry into record cleaning. But this is a great topic to be searching through the archives on the vinyl asylum as it has been discussed there in great detail and in depth.
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/bbs.html
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And another site, AudioKarma. This is the turntable folder, a search of "Cleaning LP" gave over 200 threads for hits, including a favorite, using wood glue to clean vinyl. It is good for deeply soiled LPs but I don't use it on cleaner LPs.
Cleaning your LPs seems to be a hot topic for some. I have read that one use of the old classic Disk Washer would RUIN your records (it won't, it didn't). But there are all kinds of routines from the simple to the insane. Believe it or not, my 10 minute routine for both sides of an LP isn't the insane, I'm about mid way between letting the stylus clean the grooves (an equipment reviewer who wrote for Listener stated that) and the truly insane.
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Well, it's been an interesting month. First, my short circuit to a entry level table from ebay backfired and I sent it back. I ended up deciding to get a new cartridge for my nearly 30 year old, very entry level, P300 TT. Yes, this TT worthy of no serious consideration was to be the platform I am making my judgements on vinyl on - at least for now. I reseached cartridges. Became overwhelmed by the variety of possible cartrideges to buy, etc. How can the variety be so large for a technology that's supposed to be dead? Or are reports of death exagerated? In the end I bought a Shure M97XE for reasons I don't actually remember. I read comments for and against it. I read up on how to align the thing for a couple of weeks before it arrived. I finally got the courage to mount and align it. When I started playing it I could tell it sounded a little better than that ancient and abused Ortofon LM20. Not enough better to give serious consideration. But I had been given this pile of vinyl from my neighbor want to get rid of his stuff. So I used it to break in cartridge. I've been playing album after album. I've been playing that old vinyl for about two weeks now. Last weekend I went to one of the few used CD/record shops and pick up a few $1 and $2 albums as well. Most of the stuff is poor condition and needs cleaning. However, with in the last week however the sound has improved quite dramatically. The surface noise has diminished. And I'm hearing music. Actually, it sounds....... good. I don't understand why it can sound good. It seems like such a cro magnon technology, dragging a needle through a groove. But I notice two things of interest to me. One, it sounds much better than I expected. Even some of the crappy vinyl sounds pleasing. Second, there is an aesthetic to vinyl that belongs to that medium. I can't put words to it yet but it's real. I'm experiencing something new here. I'm surprised I'm enjoying it. I have been expecting to write off the purchase of the cartridge fully expecting that I'd conclude it's too inferior of a technology to go back and embrace once again. The cost of a cartridge would be worth it to put and end to my question. Instead I'm looking for more places with vinyl bins that I can puruse and I'm starting to research record cleaning. I honestly don't know where this is leading. I wasn't supposed to get this far. So now I'm fully off script and wondering where I go from here. But, there's no rush. Oh, and yes, my wife is a little worried.... again. But then she's probably used to it by now.
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Yeah but tube amps are supposed to be a dead ancient technology as well. As far as cleaning goes I use a gem dandy. Inexpensive and very effective. Does make a mess of the kitchen sink though. I clean all records with the gem dandy prior to storage. Then when I take them out I clean them off with a carbon fiber record brush and blow any remaining dust off with compressed air. Works great for me. There are as many methods and opinions on cleaning as on stylus selection. As with most other things I try to ignore both extremes and firmly occupy the middle ground. Enjoy.
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Chris,
I warned you about damaging LPs with an old stylus now I need to warn you about stylus wear. The cleaner the LP the longer your stylus lasts. To that end look at the link below. I have used this method on LPs that I couldn't find in "Mint" condition. I have never damaged an LP and every LP cleaned with Titebond II has had a lot of noise and many, many of the ticks and pops removed. It does nothing for scratches. I have never had all the pops and clicks removed, it is probable the vinyl was damaged and that can't be "removed."
Think of it as a vinyl facial mask, or Biore' strip for your vinyl.
But if you play dirty LPs with a nice new stylus you will be wearing the stylus prematurely.
AudioKarma Wood Glue As A Vinyl Cleaner (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99837)
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I may sound like a broke newbie, but are there affordable services that could clean my whole lot of records, or would the price be more than the cost of a decent record cleaning system. I looked at the GEM Daddy, and at under $200 that seems to be the best deal going for something with so many positive reviews. But time is an issue too, I have never truly cleaned any of my records except with an old Discwasher I found in the attic, and I really don't feel like going through almost 200 LPs in the kitchen sink.
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In order: No, Maybe.
I know of no service for getting your LPs clean. I have only recently heard of GEM Dandy (the Google search comes up with GEM Dandy Hydraulic Record Cleaning Apparatus). I have a VPI 16.5 which goes used now regularly for $350 if you look for a little bit (do not buy the 16, which is older and cheaper and more awkward to use). I will have to take a look at the GEM and get back to you.
I take it using Titebond II doesn't appeal to you.
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It actually does, but It's another whole time issue. I guess I'll just have to do one of the two, no matter the time. a little here....a few there. Might as well start alphabetically: First up, Air Supply.
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Thanks to all for feedback on cleaning records. Grainger, I will heed your latest warning about dirty records wearing the stylus. I am surprised how the sound changed as the cartridge and stylus have been breaking in. I suspect a good part of the change is the stylus breaking in to real vinyl grooves. If so the prospect of dirtry grooves being a serious source of stylus wear makes further sense to me.
How ofter to people typically clear their LP's, as in after how many plays?
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I clean my LPs when bought new or after first listening to new-to-me used LPs. I want to know how they sound first (I do dust with the Zerostat and if needed give them a minor clean with the Diskwasher).
Thereafter I dust them with the Zerostat before and sometimes after playing. My cat sleeps nights in my listening room (the TT is covered completely).
Edit: I have now read the GEM Dandy review on 6 Moons. I think I will keep my VPI 16.5.
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Grainger,
Is your point that the VPI 16.5 is more convenient to use or that you think the GEM Dandy does not clean vinyl well?
Chris
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a 16.5 is definitely more convenient but after getting the gem dandy I sold my 16.5.
As far as spending time cleaning all your records, just clean them as you listen to them. Tightbond is great for really dirty records and Mr Clean Magic Erasers are great for stylus cleaning. Are lots of really good home remedies.
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Chris,
Yes, that was my point. But I have no idea how well the GEM Dandy works. The description sounds more inconvenient for sure.
I read this:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/gem/dandy.html
And remember I read it a few days ago, and I need more coffee at this hour.
My impression is that the GEM Dandy would require me to take my LPs down stairs to the kitchen. There is no sink large enough to contain the spray upstairs. I am not even sure the largest sink in the house would contain the spray. I don't remember any drying process with the GEM Dandy (it is not supplied and could leave lint on the LP). When using VPI, when I am through with cleaning, my LP goes back into the slip and I start another. With the the GEM Dandy I don't see anything that assures that the whole LP is rinsed evenly.
These might be misconceptions as I have not seen a GEM Dandy. When I read I could see these questions appearing in my mind as I read the review. I also see myself squirting water around the Kitched, I'm messy. The fluids are well contained with my 16.5. I mop up the little liquid that I have sloshed off all of the LPs cleaned with one or two Kleenexes.
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You do need a decent size sink, primary issue being depth to contain spray. I actually clean my records in my downstairs bathroom (I live in Japan and most Japanese bathrooms are designed to be giant showers. The walls and floors are completely tiled and there is a big drain in the middle of the floor.) The first few times you will probably make a mess but after you get the hang of it it's not much more of a mess than washing the dishes. I also made a thin rubber gasket to cover the record label. The one provided worked but was a little finicky as it was a ring and not a solid disc.
I pat my records dry with a lint free microfiber towel, brush them, and then either store or lube and play.
The whole record is pressure washed. A couple spins of the record and any cleaning solution you apply will be thoroughly flushed away.
The only real "issue" that I could foresee is if you have hard water caused by high mineral concentrations. Don't know if you would run into issues with remaining residue but I suppose you could.
In my completely subjective opinion I thought that the records seemed cleaner and presented a blacker background. Being generally lazy however there are certainly times when I miss the convenience of the 16.5.
I think both are great products and just about anyone would be happy with either.
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I also vaguely recall there being an attachment so you can use your garden hose, hence doing all your cleaning outside. I've got a gem dandy on the way.
Rich
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ssssly,
It sounds like Japanese sinks are like Japanese tubs, deep. Looking again at the pictures on the internet it is now obvious to me that the Plexiglas is intended as a splash guard.
Knoxville's water is extremely hard. My house has a water softener on it. Of course, the garden hoses are not on the softener. I don't need soft grass. Well, my grass is soft but you know what I mean.
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I could use some soft grass right about now, and maybe a little Sleep too ;)
Rich
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I'm sure who ever makes your DAC is very sad to hear that.
I definitely prefer my standalone DAC to the one on my Pioneer HT Receiver.
The biggest difference I experienced in my record playing life was switching from cheap integrated phono preamps to well designed dedicated units. It is not a subtle difference, at least it wasn't for me. And since getting my EROS I have never been happier. As a matter of fact I like it more than my Japanese friends preamps that cost more than their BMWs.
And that d2 is a pretty nice sounding turntable. I would use it over a p300 myself. But I have always like the sound of the Technics direct drive tables, and have never been a huge fan of Regas. Solder some good RCAs on that thing, get some deadening in the chassis, and you have yourself a nice little TT.
Don't know if you have one yet but if you are going to get a tracking force measuring device I would suggest a digital one. Just don't get ones advertised as tracking force measuring devices. Can pick up the identical units branded as digital scales for less than half the price. Got the identical digital scale version as my buddies brand name $150 DTF gauge online for $20. Even took them apart to see if they were the same components and they were identical down to the markings on the PCBs.
How do you like those Jordans? Have always been interested in them but have never picked up a pair for no particular reason.
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ssssly, thanks for your response. Yeah, I'm surprised my stand-alone tube DAC does not outshine the Onkyo pre/pro unit. I didn't even buy the pre/pro for that purpose.
My DAC experience aside I do expect a dedicated phono preamp should outperform the unit in the Onkyo. That is not the part of the pre/pro I think they would be putting the bucks. Living here in rural Vermont it's not easy to find a way I can try a unit for a simple comparison. But I'll be scheming a way if I can come up with one.
Thanks for tips on improving the D2. I'm going to implement them soon. I am surprised that this old unit works as well as it does. The overhange gauge and test record arrived today. I reset the cartridge using the gauge and my initial out-of-the-box impression is it sounds quite good. Using the cartridge alignment track on test record I hear a large null in mono mode where the L and R signals cancel. There is residual sound though. I have no experience with this and cannot tell how much null I should get. I can use my SPL meter to compare the speaker outputs or possibly use my o-scope. My simple, ear up close sanity check suggests I have the same residual null level at each speaker FWIW. Which seems like a good thing but it's not a quantitative assessment.
Is accurate setting of tracking force important for sonic quality or is it more a factor regarding record wear, skipping. etc.? I can imagine it might be valuable for optimizing the dynamic response of the needle though. I'm just floating the tonearm and setting to 0g and then using the vernier of the counter weight once calibrated to set the tracking force.
The Jordan speakers have been an interesting project. I first was had a pair of Dynaudio Audience 52's, then I replaced those with a used set of Silverline Sonatina I's. The jx92S are my first foray into full range drivers. I first built a set in cheap plywood cabinets my brother and I made. We used that to judge the design. After about two months of listening and moving the port to the back side (instead of the front) I decided the sound was good enough to commit some quality wood to real cabinet. I've been very pleased with the sound from these guys. I ended up blocking the rear port in the process of tuning them to my smallish room (about 14' X 11'). I like experimenting. These were a fun experiment that have now become my reference speakers.
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Tracking force is necessary to keep the stylus in touch with the groove. If you track too light then the stylus will not trace everything in the groove. There is a good reason to keep within the manufacturer's specified range. You might try adjusting the anti-skate. Since you mention a scope try a test groove and feed the preamped signal into the scope. Invert one channel and add the two traces together. Adjust the anti-skate for greatest null.
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Yeah, what grainger said.
If you go to the manufacturer's website they should list the tracking force for the cart along with the other specs.
A digital jewelers scale can be had for less than $20 and will do the job perfectly. Just remember that you want to measure the tracking force at the level of the platter. I take my platter off and prop the scale up on a piece of butchers block that I planed to be the right thickness with the scale I have.
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. . . I take my platter off and prop the scale up on a piece of butchers block that I planed to be the right thickness with the scale I have.
Excellent idea (my emphasis above), I wish I had thought of it.
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Hi All,
I continue to have interesting times on this path of exploring why vinyl lovers love vinyl (and the related question: does it takes a lot more bucks to experience the inherent beauty of vinyl as compared to digital?).
When I had last posted I had just purchased a Shure M97 XE and was trying it out on my D2. I taught myself some basics of aligning the cartridge. It sounded a lot better than the old Pickering unit that was on the tonearm. After a lot of listening I concluded the sound was good but it did not challenge digital playback on my system. I put pursuit of this question away for a while and pondered the whole thing.
Over summer I made my annual pilgrimage to my origins of central New York Stave to visit family and friends. On this trip I managed a visit with Art Dudley who happens to have settled in my obscure home town. I
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You got to sit down with Art Dudley? How neat is that? I can't stand his politics, but man, that would still be really, really cool! Well done!
And yes, I think enjoying vinyl is indeed more expensive. You can do it cheaply but from my perspective you won't get the same sound for $400 out of vinyl that you do get out of digital. Actually, from my perspective, not by a long shot. But it seems to me that it can still be close to its potential for not a ton more money. Especially if you buy used gear or build kits. Phono Pre (Seduction), decent turntable (used), cleaning system (Nitty Gritty/ Gem Dandy), and a decent cartridge (do beware of used cartridges) and you don't have to spend oodles on any of those.
But hey! Reading your last post I am struck by how far you have come. I think you are close to being able to offer me suggestions, instead of vice versa. Actually maybe past.
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I had been curious at what cost can satisfying sound be had for vinyl vs. digital. I would agree vinyl is more expensive. My preconception had been that for vinyl the cost was so high as to be impractical unless one was already in possession of a huge vinyl collection (not my case). I now think that the practical equipment cost of good vinyl sound is not that extreme. I agree with your points how to approach that and I have some kit building experience already. A tube phone preamp in my future....? I hope one day.
But in analog it also seems quality in can be heard as quality out and the quality of the vinyl itself is important. Reliable good quality vinyl can easily be expensive or like panning for gold nuggets (which can be FUN).
Oh yes, a good cleaning system would be really nice.
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Vinyl makes more sense dependent upon the kind of music you are into. In the business world it is fixed versus variable costs. Your fixed costs are less in digital and more in vinyl. But if you can spread those fixed costs over tons of 25 cent records than you are in better shape and can come out ahead. And that depends on the kind of music you are into. If you like classical music or maybe 70's rock, you are golden. I happen to be into 80's to present alternative, not so great. So not only is the equipment more expensive but so is the music. But vinyl, as I said a while ago, is also a fun thing to do and adds another dimension beyond the music. So for me it is still worth it, but that is a conclusion that I can see others not coming to.
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One of my favorites is Jennifer Warnes "The Well". I have listened to the CD so much that it is the one I take with me to audition equipment. 'The Well' was recently issued as a 'collectors' edition. It comes in a wood box with a nice emblem with the serial number on it. It also has a booklet about the album (I didn't know that the well is acutally a swimming hole in Texas). The 3 LP set in 45 rpm is down right fantastic. It was my Christmas present to myself as it was very expensive. I guess my point is that 'really good' vinyl is expensive, but if you love it you don't care. Beans and rice for dinner is a small price to pay for such a magnificent album.
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Multiple LP, 45 RPM sets are pretty high priced. I have 3 or 4, IIRC. Some albums mean that much to me. Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, Cowboy Junkies' Trinity Sessions and Dave Bruebeck Quartet's Time Out come to mind immediately. Maybe I only have 3.
These are worth the triple price that they charge for them. But you got to love the album first.
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Rumors is definately on my wish list. I better not wait too long like I did for Waltz for Debbie. As near as I can tell, Waltz is now sold out.
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The German pressing is already getting scarce and the price has gone up $5 since I bought it. (Amazon best price $25 new) I'd say don't delay. Two thick vinyl LPs for $25 is a decent price.
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Not necessarily recommending it, but I have cleaned old vinyl in the dishwasher. And it worked for me.
Ralph
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Dude, I hear you. I am heavily into vinyl for new releases and I often wonder if it really isn't idiotic. Way, way more expensive for each issue that you buy along with the equipment needed to play it. I enjoy vinyl and the vinyl experience and it makes my hobby more enjoyable for me. But I sometimes wonder if the cost versus benefit for newly minted music on vinyl truly justifies the cost. Given the kind of music we are into I really do sit back and think that there is no way that vinyl is cost justified given that the difference between the CD and the record is often non-existent to my ears, other than the pops and clicks that CDs don't have. Oh well, I am addicted now. Get away before you are too!
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I tried vinyl. I didn't care for it much. For one, I didn't care to spend a whole lot on a table. I had a newer Technics table with a p-mount cartridge, but replaced it with one from Audio Technica.
I have not seen it reported much. Kind of like a social desease at a Catholic school. But, I find it is many times more expensive to get vinyl equipment that brings out the best in vinyl. My VPI Scout II setup cost 3 times what I paid for my Lynn Genki CD. And when I can scrape together the money I plan to get a Lyra Delos cartridge which all by itself cost as much as my Lynn CD player. Is it worth it? That is up to the individual. And, as it is true that some CDs are much better sounding than others, it is even more so with vinyl. YMMV. Just my opinion.
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I, like many, sold my dear collection of vinyl back in the early 90's. Lot's of great, early prog like Genesis, ELP, Moody Blues, Yes, and others. All very well cared for like priceless gems.
A few years ago, I purchased the cheapest turntable I could find (an old Marantz) just to use as a demo at school. I make a horn out of rolled paper and scotch tape a sewing needle to the small end. The kids are blown away that it really makes fairly nice, recognizable sound. It's a great into to analog vs. digital.
Since I had this thing, I took a listen to an old record (I think is was ELP's Tarkus) and despite being a cheap turntable with a worn out cartidge and an old record, it sounded really good. It was dynamica and engaging.
My current system is still relatively humble. I have a Pro-Ject Expression III with a Sumiko Blue Oyster cartridge. This feeds into a seduction, then foreplay, then SEX amps, then full-range horns. Here is my list of why vinyl still has a draw:
1. Some effort is required, which somehow gets you more connected with the experience. You have to unwrap, clean and then cue the thing very carefully. It is like a ritual. You have invested something into your 20 minute listening session.
2. Album covers and art are tangible, hold in your lap kinds of things that you can absorb while the music is playing.
3. Motion. There is this physical thing moving that causes the music to play. Mesmerizing.
4. Most important, it just sounds darn good. You're getting the real-deal analog impression of the original studio sound. You get the dynamics, the detail, and the smoothness that only vinyl will give you.
Yeah, it lacks ease of use. You can't set up a three hour play list and let it run. The "clicker" generation will go crazy that you can't jump to another song the very second you get bored. Instead, you are invited and encouraged to enjoy the album as a whole piece without interruption.
I'm an "album-centric" kind of person. I want that whole album experience, so vinyl works well for me. If you've grown up with an ipod in your hand, I don't think you will understand what you are missing.
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. . . Yeah, it lacks ease of use. You can't set up a three hour play list and let it run. The "clicker" generation will go crazy that you can't jump to another song the very second you get bored. Instead, you are invited and encouraged to enjoy the album as a whole piece without interruption.
I'm an "album-centric" kind of person. I want that whole album experience, so vinyl works well for me. If you've grown up with an ipod in your hand, I don't think you will understand what you are missing.
Interesting, the underline by me of course. I have thought about that myself. I listen to my LPs beginning to end. I love the album tracks. I have ordered an LP of The Doors Soft Parade. I had listened to the CD to see if I wanted it. I remembered when I would flip the LP, what was the first cut, last cut for each side. I consumed those LPs. I even listened to the weaker songs because it was an album of music.
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The vinyl vs. CD debate is another one of the many highly subjective topics in audio. I own reference level Marantz CD player, cost about 5 and half grand. Awesome CD player,plays all formats and has a reference level DAC onboard. I also own a number of turntables, the most recent a 500 dollar Project RM1.3. I bought from the neighbors kid who recently discovered vinyl and has since traded up. I was impressed with the sound quality from such a modest price TT, decided to buy it and play with it some. Added a big acrylic platter, modified the armboard to allow mounting of a Rega RB201 tonearm, I probably have $800 in it. It is now my bedroom system Project TT, Hagerman Cornet II phonostage and a Hagerman Castanet HP amp. Ok, back to the topic of subjectivity, to me the little Project sounds better than the Marantz CD Player. I know vinyl can be a PITA, and I guess I'm a little weird, but I get a kick out of cleaning records, taking the disc out of it's protective sleeve, brushing for dust, etc. I find the whole ritual it takes to play vinyl pleasing. I do hold out hope for Hi-res digital, down the road a bit it may give vinyl a run for it's money.
Cheers,
Shawn
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I may have mentioned this back somewhere in this thread. But, I think alot of this goes back to initial point of reference ... your source when you first really started listening to music and put together your first "real" system. I set up a TT back in 2000 after a 10 or 11 year hiatus from vinyl. It just sounded "right" and most of my old LP's, all of which I kept, were "better" than their CD counterparts that I had accumulated. Same experience again when I put together the headphone system. When I added the TT to that system, it took me back again and it just sounded "right". These are modest TT's with vintage or vintage "sounding" carts. I would never say that they are technically "better" or technically more accurate than digital. They probably arent on a lot of fronts. But I listen to music on an emotional level, not a technical or analytical level. It has to sound good to me but after that it's really about how it makes me feel and how much I am enjoying what I am hearing, not whether Im missing that last bit of treble detail or whatever the case. Vinyl just sounds more "right" to me in general. I guess maybe thats why I never worried about considering myself an "audiophile" and rather just a "music lover". It doesnt meant that I dont enjoy CD and other digital, I do. Just that I will reach for the LP over the CD whenever I have some real listening time.
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I think there is something to be said about the 20 minuet album side. There is always the option to 'flip it' or move on to a different artist...John
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I may have mentioned this back somewhere in this thread. But, I think alot of this goes back to initial point of reference ... your source when you first really started listening to music and put together your first "real" system.
My first 'date' was meeting my first girl friend's parents at her house. After the 'introductions' she and I sat in her parent's living room and listend to ELP's Lucky Man on a console system's TT. I think that was the summer of 1975. We are still happily married today. We still have that album.
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Do you still have the console?
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Do you still have the console?
Alas no. I don't know what happened to it. :(
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Dang, that was a great album. ELP's first one. If I remember, that was a Greg Lake (who had just left King Crimson) song that Keith added the organ parts to in order to blend it into the rest of the album. That album, along with Tarkus, Trilogy, and Brain Salad Surgery were mainstays of my listening cycle back in High School and still get lots of play today.
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+1 for ELP.
What I find interesting is that the ELP recordings have such a huge dynamic range that those organ highs clip badly unless they are tamed. What I found works real well (talking digital now) is to upsample the redbook to 24/96 with SOx using a minimal phase (no pre-ring). Then apply a smart limiter for the clipping. Fantastic. Those screaming highs are clean! One example of how I like digital. Cant do that with vinyl.
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Hi all,
I just want to report in after three years and six months since initially posting on this subject. The thread had taken a life of it's own and as someone only recently trying vinyl again some of it I could follow or appreciate.
A short update is in order however. I eventually heard it. I did hear what experienced vinyl lovers hear, what they know. There is a truth and beauty to vinyl but it took persistence to eventually experience.
Along the way I repaired my 300B amp replacing some failed/failing caps. That made a notible difference. My open baffle speaker project has been in a state of evolution for almost two years. It evolved into a 3-way design and last summer I realized I needed to redesign the cross-overs. That made a notable difference.
The Yamaha P300 TT I started with was horrible. Twenty years in an unconditioned garage attic killed what little fidelity there was to start with. The DD Technic's I was given was better after I put a Shure m97xe cartridge but it couldn't make a convincing impression.
I didn't realize how bad the phono stage in my Onkyo pre/pro was until I bought a Music Fidelity V-LPS. The vintage Empire 598 TT was pretty good after I put a DL-103 cartridge on it, then it was able to sound musical somewhat.
I was going to put this search to rest at that point and consider vinyl appreciation more a fetish than a valid listening option. In an email I wrote in September to my high power, multi-channel, solid state, digital-loving best friend from high school to tell him I was picking up my vinyl pursuit again. He replied "have fun with your anachronistic technology". I could imagine him shaking his head.
At end of September I was examining the alignment of my DL-103 and accidentally ruined it when to dropped onto the TT surface from the tonearm. That was supposed to be it. After all that time I had not had that experience why vinyl lovers love vinyl. I just ruined a decent cartridge. Time to put my curiosity to rest. Except I didn't.
I don't know if it was that I didn't want to admit defeat or I couldn't believe all these vinyl devotes out there continue to appreciate vinyl just because of a fetish or because of an emotionally attachment to their vinyl collections. I'm an engineer. Most of the time I expect things to make sense. So far I had not made sense of vinyl playback.
I decided to give it one more shot. Instead of buying another cartridge for the 598 I decided to buy a use VPI traveler TT that came with a Soundsmith Otello cartridge. It was a decent price and if I later sold it I would not lose my shirt. When I put it into my system it was then that it all came together and heard the music for the first time. I heard playback from vinyl that was musical, involving, and satisfying in a way I had never heard before. It took some time to get there but finally this past October I heard it. I'm still amazed. I'm starting to collect vinyl now.
My thanks to all for the encouragement and advice I received along the way.
Chris
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Good for you and your perseverance! The majority of folks are willing to except digital sound reproduction, because, IMO, their quality expectation bar has been set so low. Digital sound is fairly homogenous unless one is willing to spend really big bucks. The really big bucks gets you, not necessarily a better digital stage, but a well engineered analog output stage. This is what, to me, makes digital sound close to music. Plus the vast majority has a quality bench mark based on cheap, mass produced dac chips and op amps. Perfect sound forever, but no music!
Good choice on the VPI Traveler + Soundsmith combo. The SS moving iron cartridges are an exceptionally good value. I have a SS Voice that has only been bested by a Benz Ruby 2 and my DIY SUT with Hashimoto step up trannies. The fact that the Voice is very close and able to run directly into my phono stage is a testament to the high musical payoff per $$$$.
Thanks for the update. Enjoy!
Geary
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I'm an engineer. Most of the time I expect things to make sense. So far I had not made sense of vinyl playback.
There's plenty of math behind why this makes sense.
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I'd appreciate the opportunity to challenge the biases of my HS friend with some math. I've always assumed without a lab full of test equipment it would be too difficult to measure and quantify those parameters that are responsible for why something sounds musical on the equipment we are listening too.
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Use the geometric restrictions of redbook to draw a 20khz sine wave. Now do the same for a 20khz square wave, and a 20khz sawtooth.
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Sampling theory was developed by Bell Labs for the transmission of voice and nothing else. It is not pertinent to audio.
Consider vinyl 100,000,000,000+++ samples per second. It doesn't compare to 44,100 samples per second.
This is from an Electrical Engineer whose wife worked for AT&T.
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Provided the recording was, and remained, analog all the way through the chain.
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This is a somewhat useful description on sampling theory for someone willing to wade though it: http://lavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-sampling-theory.pdf
As regards my good friend from high school who looks down upon my vinyl adventures (or misadventure as it has sometime turned out to be), using arguments to brow beat his digital biases I would also take a lawyerly path. To do that it isn't sufficient to show sampling leaves something on the table as compared to the original analog signal. I'd also like to address what analogy playback (be that vinyl) leaves on the table, and that I don't know how to do. In other words, it's also about what can be retrieved at the end of playback, whether or not it involved A to D and then D to A or always was A to A.
My own humble, trial and error, exploration of vinyl playback would make many, if not all vinyl enthusiasts raise their brows and roll their eyes. What I started exploring with would be considered junk by any audiophile just about. And I make no bones about that. That is what I started with. What I had wanted to do was to explore how high I needed to raise the bar in order for vinyl playback to reach a level of musicality that I could truly enjoy and would prefer over digital. I did eventually reach that, only recently, and I would still expect that many an audiophile might still look down upon my equipment.
I'm glad I can pause here for now and experience satisfaction for otherwise I suspect I was getting close to giving up. And in someways I would think rightfully so as I have no use for any technology, superior though it can be but only if it substantially exceeds my budget. And that I suppose is one of the advantages that digital has. Digital "junk" might sound better than vinyl "junk" at the bottom rungs of the ladder for quite a few undiscerning listeners of music even though my good friend just last year bought a Bryston digital pre/pro for a sum that exceeds my entire hifi system.
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This may have been mentioned but I have noticed that on average the vinyl version of albums have better dynamic range than other formats of the album on dr.loudness-war.com
That could also show why so many find LPs to sound better.
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I think that this has more to do with mastering then media format. Much CD mastering is highly compressed to sound "better" in mobile applications. Vinyl RIAA is a compression/decompression format that when done well is very good, but often, especially in pop music, done poorly. Hard to make a generalization because many vinyl records were highly compressed. There is no shortage of examples of bad mastering in digital or analog! Don't even get me started on high priced, heavy weight vinyl mastered from the CD files.
Cheers,
Geary
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Don't even get me started on high priced, heavy weight vinyl mastered from the CD files.
Cheers,
Geary
I have a few of those. They sound exactly like the CD! ::)
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I have a few of those. They sound exactly like the CD! ::)
Exactly! A very stiff price premium for digital sound!
Cheers,
Geary
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.... Vinyl RIAA is a compression/decompression format that.........
No compression/decompression involved in RIAA equalization.
http://www.stereophile.com/features/cut_and_thrust_riaa_lp_equalization
Now there were a few LPs recorded with dbx noise suppression that was an compression/expansion process. LP encoding with dbx never got very popular and it died in the mid 1980s.
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.... Vinyl RIAA is a compression/decompression format that.........
No compression/decompression involved in RIAA equalization.
http://www.stereophile.com/features/cut_and_thrust_riaa_lp_equalization
Now there were a few LPs recorded with dbx noise suppression that was an compression/expansion process. LP encoding with dbx never got very popular and it died in the mid 1980s.
I think we are quibbling here. To equalize or deemphasize the amplitude of the signal is to reduce, or compress the peaks.
Cheers,
Geary
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[I think we are quibbling here. To equalize or deemphasize the amplitude of the signal is to reduce, or compress the peaks.
Cheers,
Geary
Guess I am a hard nose but I don't think it is a quibble. Compression/expansion effects the dynamic/volumn range of the signal while equalization effects the frequecy balance of the signal.
Compression/expansion and equalization are different things that effect different aspects of the signal.
An audio compressor/expander, "compander", is a wholly different device then an equalizer. An equalizer can be realized with a completely passive device, like "The Fix", but I can't see how one could make a passive compander.
https://www.hsu-hh.de/ant/index.php?brick_id=oQz216jdttDCkH91&action=setlanguage&language=en