Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Oldlistener50 on November 15, 2011, 11:20:55 AM
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Been lurking... I am planning my first tube audio system! (Actually I have a high-end tube output Ham radio so I am familiar with the superiority of tubes).
Anyhow, the configuration I have in mind is: Seduction preamp, S.E.X. Amp (so I can drive both headphones and speakers), a Pro-ject Debut III turntable and some good headphones.
Does this sound like a good place to start? I have to read up more on the various add-ons for the S.E.X. And Seduction.
Thanks, and I appreciate any suggestions.
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Yup, that sounds like a great combo.
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I basically have your proposed setup for my main system: a Bottlehead Seduction w/ C4S upgrade, a Quickie w/ PJCSS, and the version 2.0 SEX amp with C4S upgrade (and in about five weeks, nickel transformers from MagneQuest). Turntable is a Music Hall, which is essentially a re-badged Pro-ject (the tonearm even says Pro-ject!), and headphones are Sennheiser HD650's. Speakers are Klipsch Heresy III. I really don't think you can go wrong with this lineup!
Don't let the "entry level" moniker fool you: this is some serious gear. It's the audio equivalent of ordering the cheapest entree at the most respected restaurant in the city: sure, there's more expensive things on the menu, but you're still getting something that's better than 95% of what you'd eat elsewhere. As your system grows and your tastes in tubed gear mature, there are plenty of ways to squeeze even more performance out of these particular offerings. That's why most of us seem to be repeat customers (I've built five kits by now, I think).
Did I mention that there's nothing quite like receiving a Bottlehead box in the mail, leisurely constructing the kit over several evenings, and watching it come to life when you flip the switch for the first time? It's like Christmas morning for guys over 30......
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I'll third what Dan and Angelo have said -- you just can't go wrong with this setup and aside from thhe C4S boards for each and maybe some tube rolling for the Seduction, and possibly some cap upgrades at some point, there's nothing to do but enjoy the music.
Oh, and maybe a couple of BH power cord kits to top it all off.
Only prooblem is it's hard to predict whether you'll enjoy building it or listening to it more.
You came to the right place.
Good luck, and welcome,
Jim
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Welcome and I'm certain you will be delighted with the setup. The C4S upgrade is good advice. Enjoy....
John
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You will love it and you might find it to be the only system you ever need.
Once you build one of these and hear how great it sounds you will be hooked. Plus, you can't ask for a better and more helpful bunch of forum members then those that haunt this forum. Oh, and they are pretty knowledgeable, too. You will get rant-free advice that is backed up with facts and experience. I have learned so much in the last few months.
Enjoy the build, then enjoy the music.
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It is addictive. You start with just a Seduction (as I did) then you add an amp. The solder fumes are calling to you and you find you can't listen because you are wanting to sniff more solder.
So you add a C4S or two, you swap capacitors, you swap resistors, add a stepped attenuator, new plugs and jacks, upgrade iron, a Bottlehead Power Cord. You can't stop sniffing and your life starts a downward spiral....
Next you stop listening all together. You start soldering your copper pipes (you have to drain them first, trust me on this).
SLAP! Ok, I'm better now.
Seriously, this is a great hobby. You will find it rewarding and be rewarded with much finer sounding music than you could afford at the price Doc charges. Not to mention that the forum can knock out any problem you have.
Two things to help you. After ordering and before the kit arrives troll the folder for your products an find out if there are any manual corrections that haven't been updated into your instructions. Sometimes it is just a change in a part, it might look different (MJE350s come to mind here). Thus armed scan the posts in your kit's folder in the forum to see what has confused others. Most kits are assembled exactly to the instructions and work first time. Now you are ready to go when the kit arrives.
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I'll just second, third, fourth and ditto everyone elses sentiments here and maybe add a couple of my own.
I decided to build a simple headphone system for listening from my Archie Bunker chair (old, torn recliners, wife wants me to get a new one etc. etc.) Source was going to be a digital player and I decided on the Crack. Then I added a CDP from the main system, then I decided I had to add vinyl. So I bought a second table for this system, a budget, used deck and I built Seduction (Haggerman Cornet in the main system, I like them both but I think I prefer Seduction). I also added Foreplay so I didnt have to swap cables between my now less simple headphone system which now had 3 sources. And also so that I can add an amp and speakers later on if so inclined.
Those entry level tables like the Debut III are play music. They are simple in design and they play music. They arent TOTL and arent expected to be. But they are generally well reviewed for the price and they are capable. I think your approach ... Table, Seduction, S.E.X amp ... is a very good one. You cant go wrong with Bottlehead gear and you cant go wrong with the support from the Bottlehead gang and the good folks on this forum.
Welcome.
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Wow, thanks for all the nice responses!
Not at all concerned about my kit-building abilities, been building electronic stuff for a long time. I will remember the tip about checking for manual updates before beginning assembly, that's a good idea.
I guess my only question is, does the S.E.X. have enough juice to power speakers (I looked at and like the S.E.X.y speakers) to make some noise (when it's just me at home and I want to really hear the music) or will I need to have something with more power to really crank up the sound?
Thanks!
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The SEX and SEXY speakers are made for each other. Really!
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Hello and welcome to the group!
Regarding db level the more efficient the speaker the louder the sex amp will be. It doesn't take as much to drive an 97 db rated speaker as opposed to a 92 db speaker. In a smaller room you may be completely happy with a 92 db or even less.
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By my standard rule of thumb, you want a 99dB speaker efficiency to "satisfy most audiophiles most of the time". That's pretty loud, actually. The SEXy is 96dB, a barely perceptable difference - I'd say it would "satisfy a majority of audiophiles most of the time." For what it's worth, I use mine with 89dB speakers in a pretty small room for watching movies and have never run out of steam.
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Great! Again, thanks for the replies and good info. I'm psyched to start getting things together.
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OL50,
If you could tell us some things like what you listen to, how loud you want to listen, the size of the room, some general things about the room such as whether it's full of books, heavily padded furniture and thck carpet or rugs, or pretty bare, lots of glass, woood floors, etc, it helps to narrow the potential choices a bit. Of course nothing is 100% predictable, but my preferencdee is to match the speakers to the size of the room, typical listening distance, and what's important to the listener in terms of musical preferences/listening preferences.
Take a look at the following site:
http://www.blumenstaein-ultra-fi.com
Especially the Orca and BUF sub(s) and then read the page on amplifier suggestions. I've not heard these myself, but plan to order a pair sometime soon (and fairly shortly I should be taking delivery of a pair of the Nagas and BUF subs for my listening room syste.
I heard the new s.e.x. amp at RMAF with my IEMs and it was in the top two or three amps for these -- liked it so much I ordered one even though I have the original s.e.x. 2.0 -- but I didn't get a chance to hear it with any other cans or speakers). Not true, I did hear it with the AKG K701/2s but I've just never got used to the sound of those cans. The IEMs BTW, were he Shure SE425s with an upgraded Lune silver cable, if that helps. I was also cocerned about the possibility of background nois, being atube amp, and with the very sensitive IEMs, but that was all for nothing -- no noise to speak of (which on these IEMs is very impressive indeed.)
The old version of this amp was a real overachiever, and from my brief time with the new one at the show, I am inclined to think thi version takes it all up a notch or two.
Sorry, I've not heard the seduction, but just bought an Eros kit.
Hope this helps,
Jim
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The room is only about 8'x14' (man cave/Ham shack) Brick walls on two sides, plaster on the other two. Wood floors. A desk and some wrap-around wooden surfaces for the Ham gear.
Through an open doorway is my bedroom, which is about 14'x22'. Also wood floors, plaster all around.
For music, I enjoy classic rock (60's & 70's) and jazz.
Thanks!
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I listen to the same type of music as you (i.e., classic rock and jazz, though mostly pre-fusion for the latter), and recently sold a house where I had the amps in a similar-sized room with wood floors. The Klipsch Heresy III's I had built in late 2009 are rated 99dB @ 1W/1m, which is exactly what "Joppa's Rule" suggests is able to provide reasonable loudness from just two watts. Needless to say, I rarely had to use more than a quarter to half turn on the volume pot with the Klipsches! Unless you're keen on blasting out the windows, I'd say two watts on 99dB speakers is more volume than you may ever need. I'd be surprised if I ever use more than half of a watt, actually. Now it's more like 1/32W in a thin-walled NJ apartment. My Klipsches will have to be patient until I finish my post-doc and can move to a more music-friendly home!
Prior to having the Heresys built, I used a pair of $350 Polk RtI A1 speakers, which received a great review in Stereophile when they were released. These were only rated as 89dB/W/m, but more than sufficed for near-field listening from a couch just a meter or two away. They would not have been able to fill a room with sound on 2W, but got surprisingly loud and had great bass for such small (5") woofers. The SEX really is capable of driving a lot of speakers, provided that you don't expect stadium levels of loudness with anything less than horns. I should mention that the newer iteration of the SEX amp, which is the one you are considering to build, is supposed to have much better transformers than the version 2.0, which used Speco 70V transformers as autoformers. Those of us with the older version of the amp often have better irons built by MagneQuest, which is what I'm waiting for as we speak. So, the updated amp may actually be even more tolerant of off-the-shelf speakers and provide better bass than the auto former version I built in Feb. '09.
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OL50,
Sounds likeyour room is very close to mine in size and sq footage. While I ethically can't recommend them yet (as I haven't heard them myself), I think a call to Clark Blumenstein would be a great place to start. The Orca/BUF system is essentially bi-amped and active in that there are no crossovers betwee the amps and the drivers, and neither the Orcas or subs have any daping material in them to further reduce efficiency. Which all tanslates into more musical goodness per watt.
The biggest concern I'd have would be with allthe ham gear on the same electrical circuit and all the RFI in the room, but only you know how much of an issue that will be. May not be an issue at all.
Good luck,
Jim
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Yeah, understand on the RFI issue but if I'm on the air I won't also be listening to music so should be a non-issue.
You know, when I look at my initial post I realize I mistitled it. I do recognize that what I'm planning to put together will be a lot more than a "starter" system.
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Reminds me of hanging at a buddies house in the 60's. His Dad, an EE, did RF designs very well, small aircraft instrumentation. Big Ham guy - wall of Ham gear - think if there was a Marshall stack for Ham folks, with 300 meter (guessing) loop antenna.
I listen to a lot of different music, but 60's 70's rock / folk is on my list also. 10 years ago I had a 100W yamaha, then in the same room (large 22 x 24 x 17H) switched to Foreplay I & Paramour I. I liked it right away.
Fast forward 11 years --
Currently have Paramour I w/ SR45 (45 tubes), SEX, and Paramour II (2A3). I switch between them, a few months between swaps.
SEX is used for headphones all the time.
I do have 100 dBSPL speakers. I could do with a little less, but don't want to.
Heck - you could provide some good info on audio tube shielding by cranking up the Ham gear
You are probably right -- you are only getting started.
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Today for the first time in probably 20 years. Thank goodness I kept my small but good collection.
Hooked up my new TT to the (solid state - hangs head in shame) Yamaha receiver, plugged in my new Grado's and listened to some great music. I can't get over how much better it sounds... I am hearing things I never heard back in the 70's, on the same albums.
So... I'm curious, when I get the Seduction and S.E.X. built, how much of an improvement will I see over the current configuration?
Thanks for tolerating a real noob here, I appreciate it.