Bottlehead Forum
General Category => Technical topics => Topic started by: dbishopbliss on April 12, 2011, 06:51:23 AM
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I am trying to use a series of five 62V zener diodes (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ON-Semiconductor/1N5372BG/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMstCHp3EWKGl2gui9JjXqQ8mMmYrlGZxF4%3d) as a simple voltage regulator, but I don't think its really regulating. I was hoping to get 283V as my final voltage, but I'm getting 300V instead.
Here's an low tech diagram:
372V ---+--2.2K--+--+--2.7K--+--+ 283V
| Z | | |
| Z | | |
= Z = = 8 10mA (that's supposed to be a current symbol)
| Z | | |
| Z | | |
GND ---+--------+--+--------+--+
I thought the five diodes would clip the voltage at 310V (62*5). The voltage after the 2.2K resistor, but before the diodes is 318V (if I recall). Is this too close to my regulated voltage for it to actually work?
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I've always found Zener circuits to be a little hard to predict, since they essentially act as a variable load on the supply. With your circuit as shown, what are the Voltage drops across the 2.2k resistor and the 2.7k resistor?
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One potential problem you have is that a resister in series with a shunt regulator and a capacitor in parallel form an oscillator. In that arrangement you have, the cap should be smaller than 1uf or put a resister in series with the cap. Actually I am oversimplifying, the circuit needs to be analyzed more carefully.
Hope this helps
Michael
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David,
I think with a diode "regulator" you should have a Pi filter before and no additional resistors. Then you regulate to the total of the zener voltage. There are a lot of different voltage rated Zeners. You can tweak to the voltage you want.
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David,
I think with a diode "regulator" you should have a Pi filter before and no additional resistors. Then you regulate to the total of the zener voltage. There are a lot of different voltage rated Zeners. You can tweak to the voltage you want.
I am using 62V diodes to get me close. I want to have an additional pi filter after the diodes to remove any noise that they might cause. This is where I'm a little fuzzy... what input voltage should I have for the diodes to actually regulate. They don't appear to do anything now?
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I could be way off base here but I see the Zener string like an OD3. The FP III has a small bypass cap after the OD3 and nothing else.
If the Zeners are doing nothing now you might not have more than the total Zener voltage coming in. If the voltage isn't exceeded they do nothing.
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Seriously guys, if you put a large capacitor after a shunt regulator it will oscillate. It may very well have destroyed the zeners. A small capacitor is all you can have. Also Grainger is correct, in that putting a pi filter after the regulator compromises the regulation. Oscillation is one of the major headaches you run into when designing your own circuits. If you look on the data sheets of gas regulator tubes you will usually see a warning about this exact problem. I once destroyed some tubes this way which is why I finally read all the warnings.
Michael
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I thought the five diodes would clip the voltage at 310V (62*5). The voltage after the 2.2K resistor, but before the diodes is 318V (if I recall). ...
The Zeners are usually 5% devices, so you should expect anything from 295 to 325 volts. Which you have.
Now imagine that the input voltage, 372v, is +/-10% - which is what the power company promises. If the power line is 10% low and the Zener voltage is 5% high, calculate the available current through the 2200 ohm resistor. Do it again for the power line 10% high and the Zeners 5% low. Then you will understand why we reduce 400v to 150v in the Foreplay regulator circuit.
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... if you put a large capacitor after a shunt regulator it will oscillate... A small capacitor is all you can have.
My cap is 56uF so is that large or small? Are you saying it should be small like 0.01uF or small like 2 uF? Compared to 10,000uF it seems small, but perhaps not small enough.
I have the parts for a non-regulated version of the power supply. What will it sound like if it oscillates? I will build that and see if I can hear a difference.
... If the power line is 10% low and the Zener voltage is 5% high, calculate the available current through the 2200 ohm resistor. Do it again for the power line 10% high and the Zeners 5% low. Then you will understand why we reduce 400v to 150v in the Foreplay regulator circuit.
I will do the math in the morning and see if I understand. :-)
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I will do the math in the morning and see if I understand. :-)
I did the math, but I don't understand. What am I supposed to get from the following?
Power line 10% low = 372 - 37 = 335V
Zener 5% high = 310 + 15 = 325V
Current = 335 - 325 / 2200 = 4.5mA
Power line 10% high = 372 + 37 = 409V
Zener 5% low = 310 - 15 = 295V
Current = 409 - 295 / 2200 = 52mA
I am using a 2.2K 3 watt now, but 52 * (409-295) / 1000 = 5.9W? That's a pretty big resistor if I double or triple its rating for safety.
If I were to decrease the 2.2K resistor to 1K? If I were using no regulation, PSUD predicts the voltage after the 2.2K resistor to be 318V. If I were to use a 1K resistor, the voltage is predicted to be 342V. In theory, will the regulator be able to clip 342V down to 310? I guess the problem with a smaller resistor is that the current increases so I would need a resistor with an even larger power rating.
If I were to use a 3.3K resistor the voltage goes below the regulator value of 310V. This means I need to start with a larger voltage. Hey, maybe I do understand why you reduce 400V to 150V. Am I on the right track?
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Check out this data sheet for an 0b2wa shunt regulator tube. Look at the application notes section. I couldn't swear it is exactly the same for zeners but I wouldn't be surprised if it was similar. It basically says don't use a shunt capacitor larger than .1uf.
As far as the voltages are concerned you should leave yourself enough headroom to account for the worst possible scenario. Say the zeners are 15 volts higher than predicted and the power supply 15 volts less than predicted and you have only 8 volts of headroom. The components in your amplifier can vary more than 8 volts with a small change in temperature. So you calculate the highest possible voltage of the zeners and the lowest possible voltage of your power supply and make sure your headroom is more than that. Also you must calculate the lowest possible voltage of the zeners and the highest possible voltage of the power supply to make sure the zeners and the resisters have enough wattage. For example using the 2.2k resister if the voltage drop is say 120 volts (probably a minimum in this situation) the current is 54.5 ma and the dissipation is 6.54 watts for the resister. Each zener is 62 volts so they could be dissipating as much as 3.4 watts each. You should always use components rated well over exactly what you need. As you can see the fact that circuits seldom behave exactly as predicted when using imperfect real world parts makes designing with them quite complicated. But fortunately it's also lot of fun.
Good luck
Michael
http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/138/0/0B2WA.pdf
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I understand your point about the capacitor, but I'm still trying to grasp the whole regulator thing before I begin to worry about oscillations, etc.
The voltage drop across the 2.2K resistor is only around 60V. The circuit draws around 20mA total and I am using a 3W resistor. Based upon your numbers, I believe that each zener is dissipating around 1.25 watts - they are rated as 5W so I have plenty of head room.
However, I don't think I have a large enough transformer to use a zener regulator based upon my calculations above (unless I ignore the extreme cases and assume that my power will not fluctuate that much).
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OK, maybe this goes to what I was trying to get at above: IF the 2.2k resistor is dropping ~60V, then the entire "circuit" after the 2.2k must be drawing 27+mA, mustn't it? So, how much of that total is the circuit the supply is feeding, and how much of it is the Zeners sinking current? IOW, your ultimate goal is to supply 283V at ? current to your tube circuit?
With the circuit as shown, you are getting 300V at the top of the Zener stack (which is within the tolerance of the Zeners, I suspect) , is this correct? And, you are still getting 300V at the output of the supply? Is that also correct?
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... Hey, maybe I do understand why you reduce 400V to 150V. Am I on the right track?
Yes, you seem to be! Notice the 4mA isn't enough to power the circuit, much less the Zeners. And 52mA means the Zeners will dissipate 3.25 watts.
If you do the calculations for a higher voltage, say 600v, you will see a much smaller variation in current - but the resistor becomes huge. That's what is in the Foreplay - two 10-watt resistors in parallel.
Now what you don't know unless you read the data sheet with a very suspicious mind, is that Zener diodes of the "barrel" construction dissipate heat through their leads. In order to meet that "5-watt" rating, you must keep the leads to no more than 3/8" long and attach them at that point to a heat sink that will keep the temperature at that point to 75 degrees C. That's actually a pretty good-size heat sink, not just a couple square inches of stamped clip-on but finned and extruded or cast aluminum. And you need one for each lead. Seriously, this is totally unrealistic! I try to keep maximum Zener dissipation below 20% of the so-called rating for that reason, and I'd try for 10% if it was to run continuously inside the chassis of a tube amp.
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I think I'm going to bail on this whole zener diode regulator idea. :-( At 36 cents each, I knew it had to be too good to be true. I think I will see if I can shoehorn a choke in my enclosure instead.
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First, if you haven't already run across this, it may help:
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/11.html (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/11.html)
Second, as a practical matter, as usual Paul coincides pretty much with every thing I've ever heard about using Zeners: The Wattage rating is very generous in the real world, so de-rating it to about 20% or less of the stated rating is prudent.
Third, rather than give up on the idea, I would suggest devising a stack of zeners that gets you closer to your target output Voltage. You may not hit 283V exactly, but you should be able to get closer to your target. A stack of 5 56V zeners would give you 280V +or- tolerance, for instance. Then, size that first dropping resistor to consume most of the difference between your expected "raw" Voltage and your target Voltage. Not necessarily all, but certainly most.
After the zener stack, use a small cap to ground, like .1uF or smaller. Remember, at this point you shouldn't be needing any filtering or additional reservoir, you are concerned with bypassing whatever noise you suspect the zeners might produce. Feed this to your circuit without any additional resistance in series or filters in parallel.
The reason I recommend you persevere is that I have often found shunt regulators, where possible, to improve the sound of audio amps. This certainly seems like a case where one might be used.
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I've been avoiding comment on the oscillation problem, but you can use big caps with Zeners. It's the gas regulators that can oscillate.
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I guess my point is, Paul, I don't see any particular reason for using a big cap in that position. Presumably, prior filtering and reservoir are taking care of their jobs, and the stack of Zeners should be opposing any ripple that may be remaining. Why filter something that isn't there? Is it your experience that a higher capacity is needed to filter out Zener noise?
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Yes, Zeners are quite noisy - even the special "quiet" ones. The affordable ones are much worse!
When we built the test box to select a shunt regulator design, we included a Zener string, bypassed with a 10uF capacitor. That was to roll off the noise above a couple hundred Hz.
If you are following the shunt reg with current source plate loads, that will reduce the noise substantially and you might not need a bypass. But a cathode follower has not power supply noise rejection to speak of and you do have to be careful there.
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First, if you haven't already run across this, it may help:
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/11.html (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_3/11.html)
Second, as a practical matter, as usual Paul coincides pretty much with every thing I've ever heard about using Zeners: The Wattage rating is very generous in the real world, so de-rating it to about 20% or less of the stated rating is prudent.
Third, rather than give up on the idea, I would suggest devising a stack of zeners that gets you closer to your target output Voltage. You may not hit 283V exactly, but you should be able to get closer to your target. A stack of 5 56V zeners would give you 280V +or- tolerance, for instance. Then, size that first dropping resistor to consume most of the difference between your expected "raw" Voltage and your target Voltage. Not necessarily all, but certainly most.
After the zener stack, use a small cap to ground, like .1uF or smaller. Remember, at this point you shouldn't be needing any filtering or additional reservoir, you are concerned with bypassing whatever noise you suspect the zeners might produce. Feed this to your circuit without any additional resistance in series or filters in parallel.
The reason I recommend you persevere is that I have often found shunt regulators, where possible, to improve the sound of audio amps. This certainly seems like a case where one might be used.
Thanks for the link. I've read it a couple of times but I think there may be a "chicken and the egg" issue that I'm not understanding.
The link shows a battery source so the voltage is constant. On the other hand, I am using a transformer, so the voltage varies depending upon the current (not to mention the power company, etc. but I'm going to assume my power is fairly stable for this question).
???V ---+--2.5K--+ 280V
| Z
| Z
= Z
| Z
| Z
GND ---+--------+
So, if I take a swag based on values from PSUD using a current of 20mA and 40mA, then the rectified voltage will be between 340 and 380V. I'm not saying that the current going across the 2.5K resistor is 20 or 40mA, I'm just using those values as a way to guess what my starting voltage will be in PSUD.
Using the high value of 380V, then the 2.5K resistor will be dropping 100V with a current of 40mA (100/2500=0.04). Therefore the 2.5K resistor would need to be at least 4 watts (10 watts for safety).
Now, if my circuit is drawing 20mA, then there will be 20mA of current through the zener diodes, so they will be dissipating close to Paul's recommended 20% of their rating - 1.12W (56*0.02).
380V ---+--2.5K--+--280V--+
| Z |
| Z |
= Z 20mA 8 20mA
| Z |
| Z |
GND ---+--------+--------+
If the voltage is on the low side, then the 2.5K resistor will be dropping 60V with a current of 24mA. Will the diodes continue to regulate as long as the circuit doesn't draw more than 24mA? In other words, is there some minimum current that the diodes need to draw to work? How do I know this value?
Or... am I completely off? This is why I wish I could take a class on this stuff.
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As far as I understand it, you will get Voltage regulation as long as the Voltage at the top of the Zener stack exceeds the Zener breakdown Voltage. So, the trick is to size the dropping resistor so that the Voltage at the top of the stack exceeds the Zener Voltage under the widest set of circumstances regarding input Voltage and current draw through the resistor that you can. As with most shunt regulators, that means that the range of current you expect your load circuit to draw is limited, and, of course, you would like for your supply Voltage to stay within a narrow range as well.
There is, as you say, a minimum current through the Zener in order for it to be in it's regulation zone, but the only way I know of determining that is by looking at the characteristic curve for the Zener you propose to use. Of course, you know the maximum current already.
Yes, there is sort of a chicken v. egg thing going on here! You need to be able to predict the top and bottom limits of current you expect your load to draw at the regulated Voltage, and you need to predict how much you expect your supply Voltage may vary depending on the factors that may cause it to vary.
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You can download data sheets on Zener diodes from several manufacturers, and there are different data sheets for different power ratings as well. Get a few of them - any one of them tends to be confusing, but if you have a few sometimes one will explain something that the other leaves out.
You will be startled at how far from perfect these devices are - but you will have a much deeper understanding, as well.