Blumenstein Ultra Fi

Doc B. · 234012

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Offline Clark B.

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Reply #360 on: March 27, 2013, 05:00:39 AM
Im on the road still (minor car trouble), so ill have to get back at greater length once im back in town but i can give a few quick answers for y'all.

I find that in order to deal with room nodes/resonance peaks, to play around with pulling the speakers out into the room a bit more, adjusting their toe in and the kinds of things that are behind them usually makes a more beneficial difference than to stuff the port (which tends to get the sound a bit lean for my likings). Upon full break in, the 90hz region settles down and you end up getting a bit lower bass out of just the orcas themselves to around 75hz once the FS of the driver fully drops down from the surround and spider completely loosening up.

One thing i can say from experience is that if you find yourself constantly fiddling with the controls to find the best bass per genre, then the system just isnt broken in yet, or perhaps it is not in the right position in your room to begin with (or you may be going for too high of a subwoofer level which will make it stick out in the mix alot more than its intended to).

However, the Orcas are intended to be a modular design in many ways, (including the ability to stuff the port).  So while this tuning technique or that may not be not to my particular liking doesnt mean its the wrong thing to do for your space (or tastes).  The point that i would most like to drive home is that they can definitely be played with to fit into a variety of situations with acceptable compromises depending upon the various room/amplifier setups.

Firstly, the most important point of adjustment is the distance from the front wall (or any similar surface) to the port on the back of the orca fullrange.  This can be adjusted incrimentally and plays a huge role in being able to adjust for room modes and other idiosyncracies to each acoustic space (and also to get the right "richness" to the mix of bass/treble in the orcas.  I usually recommend 1"-28" distance.

  In our demo space i pull them out exactly two feet from the wall to get ideal midbass punch in that space (considering that i am using a sub as well).  The speakers are roughly (iirc) 9-10ft apart and are slightly toed in ~5 degrees.   The space is 13x25 and they are setup on the short wall.

In the case of a single sub, I place it right beside the left speaker (the one that is in the corner), and with the port facing out into the room (which is necessary because of the rather live nature of the corner of the room in our space).  I set the dials at 9:00 for the gain and 10:10 for the frequency.  This gives a nice "easy" sounding bass without boominess or undue power and it works with prettymuch every genre of music without adjustment.  The RTA has confirmed these settings as well.  Granted, it did take me a while to first find these settings and placement.  I do tend to find myself adjusting the levels on a single sub system more frequently than on my double sub system as the integration is inherently a bit better with the double subs (for acoustic reasons, not for lack of power).  For the double subs, the dials are in roughly the same spot because each sub amps' high level input section is only getting one channel instead of two, and you have two amps and two drivers working which balances things out to the same relative level.  Once i get home ill put up some photos of what this looks like. 

In rather damped/carpeted rooms, i have found myself turning the gain all the way up to 11:00 and the frequency as far as noon even in some cases.  Most people find themselves somewhere in the middle of all this.  But my steadfast advice is to echo Dan- start low and come up.

In the shop stereo we use just a sex amp and orcas w/no sub.  For space reasons i push the orcas all the way against the wall and spread ~14ft apart and they make lots of bass and respectable volum for the whole 25x25 space.  I have used a sub down there in the past and the settings were a bit higher than the one upstairs.  9:10 gain and 10:30 for the frequency because theres alot of stuff in the shop, though its mostly hard surfaces (lotsa orcas) 

In summary, the four main points of adjustment on the orca system are meant to be really easy to access, and most importantly, are meant to work together rather than seperately: distance from the front wall, toe in (if any) and of course the subs' placement and sub amps' settings, which should usually be kept easy to reach so you dont have to bend over to be able to adjust the dials.

Cheers!

Clark
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 05:10:34 AM by Clark B. »



Offline Doc B.

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Reply #361 on: March 27, 2013, 05:19:05 AM
Thanks Clark, and sorry about that port stuffing thing.  ;) Listen to Clark, since with only a week of play time our system is obviously not fully broken in. I promise to shoot it again in a few weeks and readjust the setup. I will say that one really excellent thing about the Orca/sub setup is that it measures so smooth that it is super easy to interpret the results and this would be a great system with which to learn about setting loudspeakers up in rooms using a good analyzer. You can measure just the Orcas and see how amazingly flat the response is. Then measure just the sub to get an idea of what it is doing in the room. Then measure both together and it will be easier to interpret how they are integrating.

And to add a datapoint I think our Orcas ended up with the backs 14" from the front wall, which is carpeted, and they are slightly toed in relative to the listening position, which is the third vertex of an 8' equilateral triangle (speakers at the other vertices). It's sort of a "semi-near field" system, that should be similar to a lot of apartment sized listening room setups.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline tdogzthmn

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Reply #362 on: March 28, 2013, 07:40:03 AM
I have my Orca full ranges flancking either side of my iMac, about 6" away the display and about 10" from the wall behind my desk.  I toe in/out the speakers depending on if im sitting at the desk to work or if I roll my chair back to listen at a greater distance.  The sub below the desk centered between the speakers with the cone facing out.  I have not played with the position of the sub yet but I will try it rotated and tucked into the corner of my room.  I think the Orca's would benefit from being raised up a few inches to get the cones at an elevation closer to my ears. 

In all the sub has done a great job in adding body to the sound.  I've been happy to hear it slam with authority while playing Seven Lions and add a gentle presence with Bach's concertos!   



Offline Clark B.

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Reply #363 on: March 28, 2013, 09:13:10 AM
Dan - no worries man!  I think of the Orcas as the ideal Single Driver eXperimenters' setup (to go with your Single Ended experimenters' amp...  And port stuffing does do some interesting things to the power handling...   So yeah, I fully encourage playing with them as they can do some interesting things.

For instance, I wired up 4 pair of Orcas into a series parallel line array for the afterparty of Treefort this weekend... the paramounts were just crazy good until the party got too rowdy and I had to switch to solid state to keep an expensive dance move from taking place :)

No sub, and I swear we were getting 50hz bass extension with dynamics I've never heard from the little buggers before.  Lots of fun. 

Thomas -

Sweet setup man!  Yeah we have really been wanting to migrate to Apple computers to get a greater productivity and a bit better sound quality when using external dacs (?)  Do they work for you alright?

Indeed, the sub might open up a bit if you stuck it in the corner - and it might give you a little more legroom as well at the very least.

Your system sounds like it would make a great photo op, and we have some slightly blemmed desktop stand parts we could cut you a deal on if you'd like to round out the system.   For some reason only a few people have bought them so far and I think it is a matter of showing people how cool they look/work in practice.

Cheers!

-Clark


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #364 on: March 28, 2013, 09:15:57 AM

For instance, I wired up 4 pair of Orcas into a series parallel line array for the afterparty of Treefort this weekend... the paramounts were just crazy good until the party got too rowdy and I had to switch to solid state to keep an expensive dance move from taking place :)


Now we are talking! Been trying to get you to do that for a year! How did it work out?

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline Clark B.

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Reply #365 on: March 28, 2013, 09:52:51 AM
I'm gonna hook it up this way at home in the next few days.  I can't believe that I didn't try it out earlier.  The only thing that I'm watching out for is to see if there is any weirdness in the upper bands/vertical dispersion.  And if it ain't too bad, then I am definitely trying it out with 16 Pr. in series parallel.  Even if it isn't true "HiFi," its still a pretty cheap pair of speakers considering how friggin' loud they get in the bass dept.  It sure sounded nicer than any PA system we listened to that weekend.


Offline Doc B.

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Reply #366 on: March 28, 2013, 11:32:04 AM
I can't believe that I didn't try it out earlier.

Me either. I won't ask much for my royalty. ;^)> Peej was showing me the web page for an array by Don Keele a while ago, that defies convention and arranges the drivers in a convex arc like a PA array, rather than the usual "focused array" concave one (which I happen to like a lot because it solves some of the treble issues, even though there is a tiny sweet spot). Egad, 72 tweeters per side...

http://www.audioartistry.com/products_CBT.htm

Maybe you can cook up a flexible rack for a stack of Orcas - bend them the way you like best.

Dan "Doc B." Schmalle
President For Life
Bottlehead Corp.


Offline tdogzthmn

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Reply #367 on: March 28, 2013, 02:48:12 PM
Clark some stands would round it out nice and I love taking pictures.  I've spent a few nights taking some pretty shots of my Orca's under different lighting. 

Here's a bit of eye candy.



Offline Clark B.

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Reply #368 on: March 29, 2013, 02:49:03 PM
Thomas, wow nice system!  Alot more attractive than my office for sure!

And I am glad that you put up those photos - as it turns out, the set of cables that we are sending you tomorrow should take care of the bass tuning issues you were experiencing...

With our new "y cable" arrangement you will be running the signal into and out of the same binding posts on the sub amp, actually - and I can see from the pictures that you are currently running your speaker wires into the "from amplifier" section of binding posts and out of the "to speaker" section binding posts from the sub amp.

Hooking your system up like this actually engages an unwanted 125hz 6db/oct high pass filter that is part of the stock Dayton sub amp, actually...  This high pass filter is actually just a cheap electrolytic capacitor wired between the + and - posts of the "to speakers" set of binding posts, and while I've found that it sounds "ok" once the capacitor is broken in, it will open your sound up a WHOLE lot more to bypass these cheap caps and run the Orcas full range via our "y-cable" arrangement, which gives you access to the clean, unfiltered, full range signal of your SEX amp whilst augmenting only the lowest end with the subs. 

(For the passive subwoofer connection, you still just wire a simple banana to banana speaker cable from the binding posts (that we add) on the back of the subwoofer amp to the binding posts on the passive subwoofer.)

And if there are any more folks out there with their subwoofers wired up this way, I'm so sorry that we were not clearer to you about our preference for this method prior to shipping you your subwoofer!

Ok - Confused?  A picture is worth a thousand words - This is a "y-cable"  one set of ends goes to the amplifier, the other set of ends goes to the Orca.  The set of banana plugs in the middle are the ones that get plugged into the sub amp.

For all intents and purposes the Orcas are wired to the stereo amplifier with a single continuous cable considering that this "y cable" is soldered at each banana plug, including the banana plugs in the middle. 

Before this arrangement, we tried a few different methods.  All sounded good, but came with varying degrees of (in)convenience. 

We are happy to give a significant discount to any legacy customer who would like to switch over to this new Y-cable arrangement if they find themselves in any state of frustration with their current speaker cabling arrangment (whether you bought your cable from us or from someone else - we just want you to have access to the newest (and simplest) method that we've invented here).

All we need to know in an email is:

For the Y-Cable construction-
- the distance of your main stereo amplfier to your subwoofer amplifier
- the distance from your subwoofer amplifier to your Orcas

Banana-Banana connection-
- the distance from your subwoofer amplifier to your Orca Sub(s)

We typically locate the subwoofer amplifiers close to our stereo amplifier, but it is easy enough to "turn the y cable around" which will allow you to place the subwoofer amplifier closer to the speakers.  For this reason, we typically recommend a 4 foot minimum "short leg" of the Y, so that it could at least go from the floor to the Orca

The only caveat is that you should never wrench the binding posts on your sub amp too hard.  I have never had one break off, but it does seem like something that could potentially happen if you were really rough on them by yanking your speaker cables around.



Offline Clark B.

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Reply #369 on: March 29, 2013, 02:49:43 PM
Another photo:

a double sub setup only uses one set of input posts on each sub amp.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 03:06:17 PM by Clark B. »



Offline Clark B.

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Reply #370 on: March 29, 2013, 03:07:34 PM
A single subwoofer setup, on the other hand runs both channels through boths sets of input posts on teh sub amp.  The "sum to mono" section of the sub amp is actually very effective at getting a clean mono bass channel from the stereo input.


Offline Clark B.

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Reply #371 on: March 29, 2013, 03:15:19 PM
Lots of subs going out this weekend and next week.  We will finally be caught up with all orders through the middle of February as soon as these system go out!  (28 subwoofers shown in the photo alone)

We are so thankful to everyone who has stuck with us and believed in us all along.  It has been so fun and we feel so priviledged to be building so many speakers and spreading the pure joy that is these beautiful music systems so far and wide.  We are really looking forward to see what the rest of 2013 has in store!


Offline tdogzthmn

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Reply #372 on: March 30, 2013, 07:11:42 AM
Thanks for the clarification!  I did not see a detailed description outlining how to setup the sub as you described.  All my speaker cables are BJC with banana terminations so I won't be able to bypass the filter until your specialized cables arrive.  I did rotate my sub 90 degrees and put in in the back left corner of desk which has helped the sub to blend a bit more into the rest to frequency response.  It still sounds great overall so the new cables will just be an extra treat!



Offline Grainger49

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Reply #373 on: March 30, 2013, 07:24:57 AM
tdogzthmn,

I like banana plugs, especially the dual plugs, more than most guys.  I find they are handy, won't short the output and allow me to swap absolute phase quickly.

But... I would prefer spade lugs on the speakers with banana plugs on the amps.  That allows quick phase swapping and a tight connection at the speakers.  Those lugs on the back of my Orcas are good and tight with spades under them.



Online Paul Birkeland

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Reply #374 on: March 30, 2013, 03:06:47 PM
I like the new cables, that's a clean look!

Paul "PB" Birkeland

Bottlehead Grunt & The Repro Man