Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Seduction => Topic started by: Downhome Upstate on November 07, 2012, 04:27:07 PM
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Just a gleam in my eye, but anyway . . . Any thoughts on whether the Seduction is a good match with the Stereomour? Can't afford the Eros any time soon.
Best,
Mike
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I think it's an excellent match, as long as you have a cartridge with reasonable output. Eros has more gain, so it works better with carts under 3-4mV. Seduction is good down to 2.5mV but with Stereomour or S.E.X. and no separate preamp, it depends more on having high speaker sensitivity.
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Thanks, Paul. I'll be using the Stereomour to drive a pair of Orcas.
I'm looking at an old Technics SL-1200 Mk2 this weekend (say a prayer that for $250 the TT is in decent shape), and already have a Jelco 750 arm and armboard for the Techie. I got the arm a while ago because it works well with the Denon DL-103. The cart outputs 0.3 mv.
I'll need a SUT, and I was thinking of the K&K Basic step-up kit with Lundahl xformers ("[t]he Basic unit can be set up for 14, 20 or 26 dB of gain when equipped with LL9226 transformers. Alternatively, the Basic kit can also be supplied with LL1678 transformers for 18, 24, or 30dB of gain . . ."].
What do you think? With the C4S upgrade? Without? Neither?
Thanks again,
Mike
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Mike,
You will certainly need the SUT with the DL 103. I was using one about 9 months ago into my Seduction and it is a dynamic combination. I have the old Denon SUT that came with the cartridge when I bought it in 1986.
The C4S upgrade will give you a bit more gain, 6dB IIRC. It will also lower noise which also makes it sound louder.
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Hey Grainger,
Were you feeding your Paramour(s) with the Seduction/DL-103/Denon SUT?
How does the front end of the Stereomour compare with the front end of the Paramour?
Best,
Mike
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It went, Seduction>FP 2>Creek OBH 10 (remote volume control)>Paramours>Triangle Zerius speakers (I don't know what the plural of Zerius is so I avoid it).
The driver stages are much the same. The Stereomour has a volume pot replacing the Paramour fixed input load resistor. It also has an input selector switch in front of the volume pot and three pair of input RCA jacks. The Paramours are power amps, one input.
Depending on when you bought a Paramour you might not have had the C4S on the driver tube. Mine does, so do the Stereomours.
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Oh, okay. ;D ;D Wrong question, then.
Reformulating: How do the electrical characteristics/sound of the Stereomour front end compare with the electrical characteristics/sound of the FP2, vis-a-vis an input from a DL-103/entry-level Denon SUT?
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I'm not completely sure what you are asking (again, it seems). The Stereomour has the same number of amplifying stages as the Paramour. The FP 2 adds two more stages.
This flies in the face of the "less is more" philosophy of Bottlehead. But there are reasons that a preamp helps. It has a high input impedance and a low output impedance.
Many Bottleheads have found that with an active amplification stage between the Seduction (or any source) and the power amp there is more "drive" in the music. It is more dynamic and detailed.
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Right. Sorry for being obtuse, big guy. I'm just trying to understand if a DL-103/SUT into the FP2/Paramour would 'sound' like the same into a Seduction/Stereomour, or if the sound would be different because of differences in components or circuits.
Best,
Mike
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The Seduction power tranny is built so as to radiate a much smaller electrical field - so it has that going for it. Ah, I think you would still need to add a device providing RIAA correction with a SUT/FP2?
The Seduction can be modded just as easily as the FP2 btw. I installed a gas voltage reg tube into mine. (Shameless mod promotion!) :)
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1964.0.html (http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1964.0.html)
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I'm just trying to understand if a DL-103/SUT into the FP2/Paramour would 'sound' like the same into a Seduction/Stereomour, or if the sound would be different because of differences in components or circuits.
You'd have to run the DL-103/SUT combo into a Seduction in either case. If you compared the Seduction -> FP-III -> Paramours (monoblocks) to Seduction -> Steremour, I'd expect the Seduction and Steremour combination to sound much better. This has almost nothing to do with the removal of the preamp, but rather the drastic improvement in plate chokes and output transformers between the Paramour monoblocks and the Stereomour.
-PB
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Thanks, Paul. I didn't realize that the Foreplay was a line stage. Any suggestion on which of the Lundahl iron choices in the K&K step-up kit would best feed the Seduction?
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Kevin at K & K advises to use the LL9226, which is the 1:10 default choice in their Basic step-up kit for MC cartridges outputting 0.3 to 1 mV. I'm guessing that this will make the Seduction happy.
;D
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1:10 will get you to 3.0mV, which isn't bad, 1:20 may work better, Kevin should have a transformer that does both.
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Thanks, CB/PB.
I forgot (read: just didn't bother to think) that the center of the Seduction's sensitivity design point was 5 mV. Just how far over 5 can you go without overdriving the thing?
Follow-up: To C4S or not to C4S? If using a 1:18 or 1:20 step up, should I avoid the 4 dB gain from the C4S? Does the setup work better with a higher quality 1:14 step-up and the C4S? Is this where I start mumbling to myself? ???
This is where someone should say: hey buddy. This is a hobby, remember? Try one, and if you don't like it, try something else.
Mike
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I recommend you experiment with the stepup ratio; the cartridge/transformer interaction is complex and difficult to predict. For example, the DL-103 is said to have 100 ohms impedance, which stepped up by 20:1 (26dB) becomes 40K ohms. Running that into the 47K Seduction input gives a net 21dB gain - and also provides nearly 1:1 damping. This is what I would use to start with, and gives about the most gain you can get from a transformer into the stock (RIAA standard) 47K load. Transformer ratios of 20-30dB won't change the net actual gain more than a dB or so, but they will change the cartridge damping and the transformer's high frequency behavior.
Of course, I got the 100 ohm figure for the DL103 off the internet, I didn't measure it myself, so I can't be sure it's correct.
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I believe I read in a few places that the SUT will see the DL-103 as presenting 40 ohms. I'll have to go back and look again.
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What is the difference between a cartridge's output impedence (40 ohms for the DL-103) and load impedance (100 ohms)?
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I believe I read in a few places that the SUT will see the DL-103 as presenting 40 ohms. I'll have to go back and look again.
That sounds more reasonable, actually. In that case, the 30dB turns ratio would give 25dB net, probably best for Seduction - if the damping and transformer HF response are good.
Guess I should just stick with the recommendation to try different ratios once you have the transformer.
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Just placed my Seduction order - looking forward to it! Hey, Doc, where's that photo with the model holding the Seduction at thorax level? That is such a great picture!
An Asylum inmate is selling me his armless Kenwood KD-500 'table for $150. I've got a Jelco SA-750DB for it: I'll need to drill out the existing armboard to 30 mm. He's also sending over a Hammond box with Cinemag 3440's, currently wired at 1:30/37.5 Ohms. Think I'll try the 1:18, 150 ohm setting when I plunk down for a DL-103 or 103R.
Addictive, this is. Gotta love it.
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Back some months ago I was using my vintage DL-103C with my setup. I have a buddy using a new DL-103 with my old Seduction and my Denon SUT. Both worked perfectly with the Denon SUT. Right now I am out of town so I can't look up the specs on it.
BTW, Paul Joppa gave some good information about the needed turns ratios and impedances on transformers some time back. I expect it is in the phono folder.
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Back some months ago I was using my vintage DL-103C with my setup. I have a buddy using a new DL-103 with my old Seduction and my Denon SUT. Both worked perfectly with the Denon SUT. Right now I am out of town so I can't look up the specs on it.
BTW, Paul Joppa gave some good information about the needed turns ratios and impedances on transformers some time back. I expect it is in the phono folder.
Do you remember the turns ratio used with the Denon SUT?
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The DL-103R has ~0.25mV of output, the DL-103 0.3mV.
I've successfully used a Seduction with cartridges rated at 6.8mV, and the balance of gain was outstanding. To get there with 0.25mV, you'd want a voltage step-up of about 1:20.
With a voltage step-up of 1:30, you'll end up with ~7.5mV, which is potentially too much, but give it a try anyway, on that Cinemag unit, it's more like 1:36, which will push it even higher. I think the 1:18 should work really well!
-PB
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I'll mark this thread unread and look up the specs when I get back home.
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I don't have the numbers handy, but as I recall the DL-103 has a DC resistance comparable to the resistive impedance load presented by the stepup transformer/Seduction combination. That means a substantial signal reduction; if the resistances are matched it cuts the voltage in half (-6dB). Some enthusiasts think that is a good option, providing some damping of the vinyl/tip mass resonance.
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It seems that the instructions ended up with my friend who is borrowing the SUT right now. I will contact him tonight and see if he can locate the specs.
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I have determined that discretion is the better part of valor here. Accordingly, I will be advancing to the rear, with dignity.
Placed an order for the Audio Technica AT7V, a low compliance, low tip mass MM design with 5 mv out that should be a great match for the Jelco arm and the Seduction.
God willing, I will live to screw around with LOMC cartridge loading another day.