The trend toward ditching the pre-amp

[earwaxxer]

I thought I would open this up for discussion and experiences. This has been an interesting topic and area of experimentation for me since digital attenuation has become so common.

It makes sense to pursue this option, for several reasons, economy of components being one, and purity of signal path being another. It seems that every time I have a significant change in kit I make a move to pull the Quickie out for awhile to get "a better look". I inevitably end up putting the Q back in, but that only gets me to thinking even more. The "change" is SO subtle. Amazingly subtle, considering how primitive the Q is.

I guess I'm wondering about going tubes in the power section, and what others have experienced who have tubes in the pre and power amp, and what they have noticed by pulling the preamp and going with digital attenuation.

[KevO]

Eric,

My bias is toward keeping the pre-amp. I built a First Watt B1 active buffer to replace my Cary tube preamp. 0db gain. After a few parts upgrades, I found it neutral and transparent. My digital source is a Transporter with Modwright tube output. I feel some tubes in the chain are helpful sonically.

Swapping in the BeePre proved, to me, the value of the pre-amp. I have too much gain, but that can be fixed. The sonic difference is huge IMHO.  I am always surprised when I upgrade the pre-amp. Improved dynamics, nuance, body, etc.

I look at amplifiers as part of the back end system. Find one that mates well with your speakers and pay attention to source and pre-amp. I have Linkwitz Orion speakers and use the recommended amp. They were designed as a system.

All changes to the front end come right through, for better or worse.

I am sure you know that stripping bits for volume control has it's issues. I am sure that is being worked out with 35bit+ systems. Still I feel the pre-amp, especially one as good as the BeePre, is a net plus in each system.

-Kevin

[galyons]

To me, you just can't look at the impact of one component in the chain.  If the system is not, overall, accurate and revealing, changes are masked by the other components in the change.  I have, other than Touch/DAC, an all tube system.  My experience with digital attenuation is far from favorable. IMO digital attenuation makes every thing sound like it is running through a CD player's cheap attenuation stage.  Even with the Touch, digitally attenuating the output to the DAC makes the music flat, suffer a loss of timbre and adds grain.  Will the technology "get there"?  Maybe or maybe it already has.   I am just not a player in higher $$$$ digi.

But bear in mind, I am NOT a big digi-fan.  I stream to a Touch out to an NOS DAC.  The music, to me, sounds better than a CD player, but generally digi-music is for background listening. Serious listening is vinyl or R2R.  So take my comments with a HUGE grain of salt.

Cheers,
Geary

[earwaxxer]

Interesting thoughts and experiences! Thanks much.

Digital attenuation is getting better from the squeezebox days. I have the Transporter - it sits in the corner, having been replaced by PC running JRiver with its 64bit vol control over USB. All aspects of sound have improved. The First Watt stuff is intreging. IMO, tubes are still king.

[4krow]

  More than once I have tried to ditch the pre-amp with the same expectations as you bro. Each time, w/o exception, the pre goes back in. Can't argue the theory of pristine input to an amp and such, but the reality is the test. AND, the pre-amp for whatever reason matters a bunch! The Q just keeps on winning. Amazing

[Paul Birkeland]

I believe keeping a preamp around is very important.  If you want to listen to a variety of power amplifiers, with input impedances between 10K and 470K, and with variable capacitance at the input, then having a preamp with low output impedance is essential.

[Bonzo]

For a long time I avoided any preamp in my system.
The amps I own has enought input sensitivity, so the only preamp I used was my phono.
I finished my Quickie and my B1 at the same time, and it was a real revelation for me: adding a preamp was just like colouring the sound, but I liked it so much I cannot go back.
It was like giving life to the instruments, with the Quickie being the best of the two.

Ciao!

[johnsonad]

I too tried to phase out the preamp. I went through a Pass B-1, Magnequest Ingot and a Bent X. None got me what I wanted. There is just something right about having an active preamp stage.

Funny though, in my system there is way too much gain so the Ingot is used as an L-pad between the BeePre and my old Quad power amp.

[earwaxxer]

So Aaron, how would you describe the Beepre through the Quad? How does the Beepre effect the sound?

[2wo]

I like to keep a pre out if I can, just to minimize the number of stages, jacks and interconnects. Some setups work some don't. I will post more about that later.

You ask about digital vol control. I have found that if you can run at the very top of the scale, it can work OK. Especially if it means you have the remote in one hand and a beer in the other. Its a compromise but i love the freedom...John     

[Paul Birkeland]

I like to keep a pre out if I can, just to minimize the number of stages     

For those using the vast majority of digital sources, you will end up with at least one op-amp at the output to facilitate driving long cabls.

I would take a nice preamp over an opamp with a bunch of feedback (though there are a few notable exceptions).

[Doc B.]

It's not about "preamps". It's about the gain, number of stages, and impedance and capacitance differentials between stages. "No preamp" is not a particularly simple setup if you have a source with buffered outputs and an amp with several gain stages. On the other hand something like a DAC with a simple shunt resistor I/V converter feeding a single gain stage preamp and a one or two gain stage amplifier is relatively simple even with the preamp in there.

[johnsonad]

So Aaron, how would you describe the Beepre through the Quad? How does the Beepre effect the sound?

Everything had an effect on the sound. In short Eric it sounds great and works as any good pre does in my opinion by adding a little life to music. That was my biggest complaint about the passives, they sounded lifeless.  The BeePre is the first pre to sound better than my old Japanese pre I had been using. The Quad is just special in my system. Somehow it just works with the Altec's. As a whole,  very happy with the sound of the system. 

[4krow]

  That says it all for my experience of not having a pre-amp. The sound was lifeless compared to having a pre-amp in circuit. But also, as mentioned before, it can have a lot to do with impedance/capacitance. The Q is one of my all time favorites, along with an old PS Audio unit designed, built, and even upgraded by Stan Warren.

[earwaxxer]

So far.. I havent found a DAC that didnt benefit from a Q in the circuit. Not an exhaustive review by any means, but it does seem to be a trend that I can count on. We will see..