Cap upgrades (bear with me)

adamct · 20626

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Offline adamct

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on: January 15, 2013, 05:02:59 PM
So.....as with many others, I'm interested in upgrading the caps in the Crack. I understand that I'm looking for something rated at least 100uf / 250V. That's about the extent of my knowledge. I found the following that - to my ignorant eyes - look like the meet the requirements. Can anyone give me any advice as to which of these is likely to offer the best bang for the buck? Are the Obliggatos listed below the ones that several others have installed? Lastly, do I just need two of these? Or do I need more? Apologies, I've tried searching the threads, but I can't figure out exactly which caps people are talking about (or where I can, I can't find those caps available for sale anywhere).

MUNDORF-71346
(metalized polypropylene)
100uf / 250V
M-CAP



Offline Grainger49

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Reply #1 on: January 16, 2013, 03:49:24 AM
Adam,

I don't listen to headphones so I don't have a Crack.  I can't give you advice on which of those are best for the output cap.  But, the Obbligato caps I use are here:

http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_obbligato_oil.html

They do not go big enough for the output cap.  I think these are usually a great bang for the buck.  The Crack requires a large value of capacitance.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 01:36:05 AM by Grainger49 »



Offline dwilli852

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Reply #2 on: January 16, 2013, 04:25:50 AM
Any of the caps listed would work. I'm using Auricap 100uf 200v in mine. Just depends on how much you want to spend. I haven't used the Mundorf EVO series caps in any projects so would be interested in how they sound. I have used the Jentzen Cross Caps from Parts Express which are $34.76 for 100uf 400v and Madisound has the Clarity SA for $51.50 and the ESA series 100uf 250v for $85.30. You could also use a cheap larger cap bypassed with a more expensive small teflon cap. Just depends on how you want to do it.

David Williams


Offline corndog71

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Reply #3 on: January 16, 2013, 04:45:37 AM
ERSE is a good brand for a big cap like that as well and competitive with Solen in price.

The world was made for those not cursed with self-awareness.

Rob


Offline adamct

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Reply #4 on: January 16, 2013, 05:30:54 AM
Thanks for the responses! Quick question: is there a difference between "metalized polypropylene" vs. the Mundorfs and Obbligatos that are listed as "film capacitors"? Is metalized polypropylene just a kind of film capacitor under a different name, or is it entirely different?

Apart from whatever I need to do to securely attach these, are any other changes necessary to the Crack, or can I just clip the leads on the existing caps and solder these in in their place?

Best,
Adam



Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #5 on: January 16, 2013, 07:33:07 AM
Short intro to film caps:

1) The dielectric (he insulator) is a plastic film. The most common films are polyester (a.k.a. nylon; Mylar is a brand) and polypropylene. Some are more linear than others, which is thought to be an audible source of distortion. The actual measured evidence is pretty thin, so you have to use your ears too. Teflon is the most linear, followed by polystyrene, polypropylene, then polyester. An older technology is to use paper impregnated with various oils or waxes (which dominate the performance). You will see the term paper in oil, abbreviated PIO. Some plastic film caps are also bathed in oil, though the oil does not absorb into the plastic itself.

2) The conductive metal can be deposited in an ultra-thin layer on one side of the film (called metalized film) or it can be a separate foil (called film and foil). Aluminum is most common, though copper, silver, and tin are also used. Metalized film is self-repairing - a short between layers will vaporize the metal -. Foil is thicker and needs a thicker film since it can't repair itself, so they are much larger. The foil is thought to reduce internal vibration.

3) There are electrical forces between the layers of a capacitor, and the dielectric itself will respond mechanically to electric fields. This causes capacitors to vibrate in response to the signal voltages, which in turn modulates the signal - causing audible distortion. Some caps are more prone to thisthan others, and the importance of this effect like so many others is still debated.

Bottlehead mostly uses well-made but inexpensive metalized polypropylene when we have film caps. We think these are the most cost-effective choices.

Paul Joppa


Offline Grainger49

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Reply #6 on: January 16, 2013, 07:50:35 AM
Paul,

I think that post should be a sticky in tech topics.



Offline dwilli852

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Reply #7 on: January 17, 2013, 09:49:03 AM
Here's a link you might find interesting http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/super-caps.htm

David Williams


Offline Jim R.

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Reply #8 on: January 17, 2013, 12:00:22 PM
Adam,

Also, don't overlookthe mundorf m-tube ps caps even thought their voltage rating is far higher than you need in this application (I believe the voltage rating of the stock caps is 160v.)

Paul, where does polycarbonate fall in this hierarchy?  I've seen more and more audio caps made with polycarbonate (as dielectric) in the last couple of years but haven't tried them myself yet.

-- Jim

Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline Paul Joppa

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Reply #9 on: January 17, 2013, 06:01:29 PM
...Paul, where does polycarbonate fall in this hierarchy?  I've seen more and more audio caps made with polycarbonate (as dielectric) in the last couple of years but haven't tried them myself yet....
The Wikipedia article on film caps is worth looking at, though it is quite exhaustive (i.e. often boring!) There, it is said that polycarbonate film (PC) production ceased some time ago, though one cap manufacturer claims to be producing their own. In a quick search, I could find no data on dissipation factor (ESR) or dielectric absorption (distortion) except that dissipation is "low".

It still appears that teflon is the only dielectric superior to polypropylene in these measures. PPS (Polyphenylene sulfide) has potential, closer to PP (polypropylene) than PET (polyethylene terephthalate aka mylar) with good temperature tolerance - it's showing up more because of surface mount solder temperatures.

Among ceramics, NPO is nearly as good as PET but the others with high capacitance per volume are terrible.

These are just comments on the properties of the film; remember that construction is also important. And there are almost certainly other parameters we don't know about yet which are also audible in the right circumstances.

Paul Joppa


Offline Jim R.

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Reply #10 on: January 18, 2013, 04:06:28 AM
Paul,

Thanks for another great lesson/resource.  I'm definitely going to wade through the wikipedia article.

-- Jim

Jim Rebman -- recovering audiophile

Equitech balanced power; uRendu, USB processor -> Musette DAC -> 5670 tube buffer -> Finale Audio F138 FFX -> Cain and Cain Abbys near-field).

s.e.x. 2.1 under construction.  Want list: Stereomour II

All ICs homemade (speaker and power next)


Offline adamct

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Reply #11 on: January 22, 2013, 07:24:41 AM
Help! I'm about to place my cap order, but then remembered that there were two sets of caps in the Crack, with different values. Can anyone fill me in on what values I need for the other caps, and tell me whether upgrading them is worthwhile (and what caps are recommended for that purpose)? Unfortunately, I'm at work and don't have access to the Crack parts list or manual.

Thanks!
Adam



Offline BNAL

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Reply #12 on: January 22, 2013, 08:26:47 AM
Adam,

The most critical caps are the 100uF output caps. They need to be rated equal to or great than 160 volts.

The other caps are in the power supply. These are 220uF 250volts.

You could also consider using bypass caps in both positions. There has been discussion on the forum about what values to use and best position in the power supply, so a quick search should yield a lot of good information.

Brad Nalitt
Iron Upgraded S.E.X. Amp 2.0
Foreplay III
Quickie w/PJCCS
Eros Phono
Blumenstein Orca Speakers, Baby Benthic Subs
S.E.X.y Speakers W/FT17H Horn Tweeters
Thorens TD 125 MkII W/ Shure M97xE JICO SAS Stylus


Offline adamct

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Reply #13 on: January 22, 2013, 09:20:16 AM
Brad,

Do the power supply caps have much of an audible impact? I'm not looking to upgrade for the sake of upgrading, only if it will actually make a noticeable difference.

Thanks for your advice,
Adam



Offline BNAL

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Reply #14 on: January 22, 2013, 09:56:09 AM
Adam,

I did not change the caps in the PS, but I did bypass the last electrolytic cap with a 2.0uF claritycap I had from my S.E.X. amp. I though it made an improvement.

The Crack power supply is well designed and you can get improved performance, but they will only be subtle. The best improvement would be from the Speedball, if you do not have it installed already.

Brad

Brad Nalitt
Iron Upgraded S.E.X. Amp 2.0
Foreplay III
Quickie w/PJCCS
Eros Phono
Blumenstein Orca Speakers, Baby Benthic Subs
S.E.X.y Speakers W/FT17H Horn Tweeters
Thorens TD 125 MkII W/ Shure M97xE JICO SAS Stylus