Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => BeePre => Topic started by: Rublyow on September 09, 2013, 05:52:07 PM
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Currently I am using a vintage integrated Onkyo A10 power amplifier, and I'm thinking about buying a BeePre and bypassing the preamp stage of the Onkyo and just using it as a power amplifier. The input impedance for the power amp stage of the Onkyo is 50k --- is this too high for the BeePre with an output impedance of 500 ohms? (I don't know much about impedance matching, only that you want a factor of at least 10 or 20 times higher, but it's unclear to me if you can have too much of a good thing). I've attached a pdf of the Onkyo spec sheet --- Is anything else I should be concerning myself with when assessing how well these two pieces would match?
Also, is there any reason to suspect that the Eros will have volume issues running through this setup? My phono cartridge is the Clearaudio Maestro, at 3.6 mV output.
Thanks!
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This will be no problem for the BeePre and the Eros.
Michael
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Great, thanks!
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Dan,
It is only fair to warn you. The sound you hear from an Eros/BeePree combination can be addictive.
You might, like me, change your amp and speakers to get more of the same sound. I started with the Seduction, then the Foreplay 2. Later the Paramours and Triangle speakers (now Orcas).
As addictive as drugs but all legal!
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I have kind of held off on this thread.. I had to sort out my opinions - Try to be constructive. I think I have it "consolidated". --- Forget about the back end to the beepree. The beepree WILL be the "focal" point of your system. Everything else will come second. I know thats harsh. IMO, Bottlehead gear will cause some serious "modifications" with the rest of your kit. In a good way. Like Granger said - beware!
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That is probably one of the highest compliments one can give... To be willing to change the speakers in order to better serve the components.. I can't think of a higher compliment to the Bottlehead designs...
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Bottlehead gear will cause some serious "modifications" with the rest of your kit. In a good way. Like Granger said - beware!
That's what I'm worried about ;D.
But truthfully, that is sort of the goal. Unfortunately the wife-approval-factor for the large size of most quality high sensitivity speakers is very low, and I don't really have the space for them (or the money) at this time. I know I can get away with some smaller high sensitivity speakers that can be powered by tube amps like the Paramounts, but really, what's the point of having great amps only to run them through sub par speakers?
SO.... the current plan is to slowly phase out the Onkyo by first bypassing the preamp stage with the BeePre, and then hopefully replacing the speakers and the power amp stage in the future. I just want to make sure the sound won't suck if I am stuck using the Onkyo power amp for the next year or two.
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Hey Dan - I would not worry about the power amp stage - plenty out there with very nice "modern" well behaved sound - for minimal bucks - you don't have to suffer these days with outdated stuff. Thank the recession, china etc
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Eric,
I am kind of in the same boat as I have built the Eros and now have the BeePre on order. I have a set of Vandersteen's that I really love and would not want to give up any time soon. I power them with a 20+ year old Adcom amplifier that has seen better days. I just convinced my better half to get the new preamp, so I am not in the market right now, however, it is not long before Christmas. I see you have an Emotive amp driving your maggies. I have heard both good and bad about the Emotive brand, but given the sources I have little trust in those ad hoc reviews. How do you like the emotive amplifier and how well does it mesh with the tube gear?
Paul
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Hey Paul - I really like the XPA-2 with the Q up front and the MMG's. VERY well behaved power amp! The Maggies will show EVERYTHING. The designer of this amp probably copied other well designed amps (Bryston). Class A/B - I had a class A biased amp that did not sound this good (Perreaux). It is now in the Mkll version. I would by it if I were you! - around Christmas they go for $100 off.
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I love my amp, which cost more than twice what the XPA-2 costs. Yet I still lust for the XPA-2 and periodically think about selling my current amp to buy one...I didn't even know they have overhauled it until now. Looks like a screaming deal...
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Yep, and the funny thing is they have a "reference" class D that has twice the power (and price). I would be hesitant to bite on that. Not enough opinions out yet......
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One thing I can say about the XPA-2 - it needs tubes in the pre-section. I have tried my level best to get them out. No deal. Too uninvolved of a sound without the tubes. Very "listenable", but not what you want when you sit down after a hard day at work etc.. I think, IMO, its a great combo for those that cant afford the high power tubes to drive their speaker of choice.
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Yeah, I think part of why I like my current amp so much is that it's a hybrid...a bit of tube magic with solid state power.
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"I had a class A biased amp that did not sound this good (Perreaux)".. interesting.... Perreauxs are not cheap...
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I would not worry about the power amp stage - plenty out there with very nice "modern" well behaved sound - for minimal bucks - you don't have to suffer these days with outdated stuff.
Wait, are you calling my Onkyo outdated? Well, I guess it is, technically....
But I'm not really one that believes modern amps necessarily have a better sound (though many of course do). Old amps do undoubtedly need to be refurbished, and updated components (e.g., capacitors) can definitely help a lot ---- but that's half the fun of owning vintage equipment: plenty of room for upgrades and DIY projects. While specifications only tell half the story of an amp, the specs of the power stage of the Onkyo A-10 are roughly comparable to the XPA-2, though the XPA-2 would definitely excel when more wattage is required or with low sensitivity speakers.
Mostly I just want to make sure the Onkyo and the BeePre would compliment each other, since I'd really only interested in replacing the Onkyo with (potentially) a tube stage if I ever found some good speakers that would work in my listening space.
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I agree with you.. I enjoy some refurbished vintage gear also... Maybe mostly for nostalgia purposes though, but enjoy nonetheless...
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I guess what I'm saying about 'outdated' is the advent of the recent phenomena called 'China'. See, what China has done is copy the best designs and use the most current and best performing parts to give you a very high price/performance ratio. Sure we would all love a Bolder amp, etc. No way we can afford it. What China has done is stimulate the price/performance arena, and I has appeared that American/English/German etc. manufactures have responded. Not sure yet about the Japanese? I have a feeling its a yen/dollar thing.
Anyway - I would perfer, and largely have, bought American with my audio kit. Because its been the best. When it comes to complex labor intensive designs, the stuff assembled in China still has the edge. Hence the Emotive. An UNBELIEVABLE deal for $700 - I remember my roommate's SAE separate amp/pre 200wpc kit cost him over $1K - in 1975! The Emotiva blows it away...
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Eric,
Have you had any luck with DIY power amps (either SS or tube)?
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I made a ChipAmp, chipamp.com, GainClone. I had some Black Gate caps that went into the power supply. When I turned it on I was totally unimpressed. But after 2-3 weeks of burn in the amp would sing! I had no idea that power supply caps needed to be formed (burned in).
With dual mono power supplies it was about 60WPC.
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Supposedly, the black gates were notorious for a long burn-in time...
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I had heard this, yet I didn't expect it from a power supply. I was wrong!
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Eric,
Have you had any luck with DIY power amps (either SS or tube)?
I did 'attempt' to build 60hz high power T-amp once. It was a no go. Over my head and poor documentation. If I were to go DIY now I would do ClassDaudio kit. I like the Emotiva, for now...
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Supposedly, the black gates were notorious for a long burn-in time...
Wasn't really burn in. It was reforming every damned time you turned them off. They would always sound crappy until they had potential on them for several hours. Turn the gear off, start all over again.
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I didn't mention this. My GainClone had no power switch. It stayed on all the time.
I did realize that the caps were not charging and discharging, so I didn't think it was the same thing as breaking in a signal cap. But power supply caps do need to "form." I'm not sure I fully understand that.