Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Quickie => Topic started by: russtafarian on November 02, 2009, 07:48:41 AM
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I finished my Quickie last night and listened to it in the big rig for a few hours. I am pretty impressed! I did notice that one tube was much more microphonic than the other. No big deal, I'll try some tube rolling.
So where I can pick up some more 3S4 tubes to try out. Web links appreciated.
I've seen them priced anywhere from $4 up to $12 for "premium" tubes. Should I go for a pair of "premium" tubes or spend the same cash on a half dozen standard tubes and find the quietest pair in the bunch?
Thanks for a fun project.
Russ
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I believe the tubes of British and French origins (probably the Telefunkens also) are a bit less microphonic than your run of the mill GE's.
RCA 3S4's have also been reported to be less microphonic than the GE's.
A good bet would be to find a tube seller with a ton of them that will sell you a mix of non-GE 3S4's.
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... Should I go for a pair of "premium" tubes or spend the same cash on a half dozen standard tubes and find the quietest pair in the bunch?
Russ,
I have been contemplating the same thoughts. I was thinking about buying one par of premiums, and a bunch of others just to tube roll. However, I just have not been able to pull the trigger on the purchases.
Happy hunting. Keep us posted.
Alan
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I finished my Quickie last night and listened to it in the big rig for a few hours. I am pretty impressed! I did notice that one tube was much more microphonic than the other. No big deal, I'll try some tube rolling.
So where I can pick up some more 3S4 tubes to try out. Web links appreciated.
I've seen them priced anywhere from $4 up to $12 for "premium" tubes. Should I go for a pair of "premium" tubes or spend the same cash on a half dozen standard tubes and find the quietest pair in the bunch?
Thanks for a fun project.
Russ
I picked up a pair of RCAs from Antique Electronic Supply (http://www.tubesandmore.com) and a pair of Amperex from Tube world (http://www.tubeworld.com). The RCAs are much less microphonic than the GEs that came with my kit. The Amperex tubes are not microphonic at all. The RCAs cost $2.50, and the Amperex $7.50.
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I would caution everyone about making assumptions regarding microphonics or noise based upon the sampling of one pair of tubes of a given brand. It's a starting point, but even some of the most highly regarded NOS tubes can be quite inconsistent from sample to sample when it comes to microphony and noise. There are certainly some types that have a reputation for microphony - the RCA 5963 variant of the 12AU7 family comes to mind - but I have some very highly regarded EF86 types designed specifically for low noise performance that are microphonic as well.
The best way to get a handle on which 3S4s might be the hot tip is for the community to continue to share their experiences here. If we get multiple reports of a certain brand being better or worse we begin to develop a useful reference. I guess what I'm saying is that this early in the game everyone who can should be buying two or three types, trying them out, and sharing their results.
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Thanks all. I ordered ten 3S4s from Antique Electronic Supply since they are on sale for $2.24 each. I'll try them out when they get here let you all know how they work.
Listened again last night and damn this thing sounds good. Original plan was for this to be a headphone amp for the office. Now I can't get it out of the rig at home.
Russ
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I got Canadian Westinghouse 3s4's from tube depot. They have no microphonics like the tubes that came with the kit, Zenith's, however they sounded good, (maybe a little flabby w/o the hamond plate chokes). Also, it should be noted that they let you order 3s4's but don't specify make ( I guess they send what they have)
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Hi All,
I found a great local source for some. I ordered 2 large handfuls, I'll report back after I get them in my hand and plugged in the board.
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Hi All,
I found a great local source for some. I ordered 2 large handfuls, I'll report back after I get them in my hand and plugged in the board.
A local source for out-of-production tubes? We definitely need to have a Bottlehead meet in your part of the woods :-)
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We definitely need to have a Bottlehead meet in your part of the woods :-)
Len,
I have been thinking about that, just not sure how many we might get? I can not see that happening before Christmas.
Alan
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[Hi All,
I found a great local source for some. I ordered 2 large handfuls, I'll report back after I get them in my hand and plugged in the board.
Len,
My local source proved to be short on 3S4's ( imagine that he wanted to keep some for his own use). I only have 6 coming. He did come through with a bag of tubes for use in Pete Millett's Engineers Amp that I was excited to read about. Worked out in the end as now I have some Mullard's and Brimar's coming. Reports to follow
Alan
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...I have some Mullard's and Brimar's coming. Reports to follow
Alan
Cool. I'm interested in how they sound. Thanks for the update.
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I would caution everyone about making assumptions regarding microphonics or noise based upon the sampling of one pair of tubes of a given brand. It's a starting point, but even some of the most highly regarded NOS tubes can be quite inconsistent from sample to sample when it comes to microphony and noise. There are certainly some types that have a reputation for microphony - the RCA 5963 variant of the 12AU7 family comes to mind - but I have some very highly regarded EF86 types designed specifically for low noise performance that are microphonic as well.
The best way to get a handle on which 3S4s might be the hot tip is for the community to continue to share their experiences here. If we get multiple reports of a certain brand being better or worse we begin to develop a useful reference. I guess what I'm saying is that this early in the game everyone who can should be buying two or three types, trying them out, and sharing their results.
Great advice, I have taken a more mechanical approach to this problem, but i do plan on trying some of the sources revealed in this thread
I have the Quickie more than 10' away from the drivers and is on my old Target stand. I still get a little ring here and there when I fiddle with the controls. It's very minimal so it buys me more time to catch up with all the other options/projects this Quickie presents
thx to all for the info on where to get these tubes
q
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I have some Mullard's and Brimar's coming. Reports to follow
Good, I'd like to know how the Mullards sound. Although I don't have a quickie yet I bought a small stash of NOS Mullards from a guy in Athens, Greece. I'll be ordering a couple of quickies before the end of the year. One for me and one for a friend.
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Has anyone seen a data sheet for the 3S4 that shows average life? I imagine its pretty good. 10,000 hours maybe?
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. . . Good, I'd like to know how the Mullards sound. Although I don't have a quickie yet I bought a small stash of NOS Mullards from a guy in Athens, Greece. I'll be ordering a couple of quickies before the end of the year. One for me and one for a friend.
Some would call you crazy but I have bought a dozen Russian tubes for the input stage of the Eros. And I don't own one yet either.
I would say we are good planners. Our wives might disagree.
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Hello my fellow quickers,
Here is a really quick tube update.
Ok I think I have gone a little over the top with tubes for the Quickie, 3 pair of 3S4's from a local supplier, a set of mullard and a set of Brimar on the way and in the mean time. I ordered some 10 DL92's from a seller in England off of flea bay. Of course when I got them they were not DL92 but CV820. At first I was pissed, but then I relaxed and took a closer look at the tubes. What I found inside the boxes were tubes labeled 3S4 and CV820. So, I tried them, first thing I noticed was very little micro-phonics, and I mean very little. They sounded good, but I didn't get a good listen to them as my wife Jean came home, and we started dinner.
As soon as I get more listening time I'll send further updates.
Cheers,
Alan
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Any updates on sources and sound?
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Bundee1,
I haven't had any time to sit and listen to my different tubes. Plus I am still waiting on the mullards and Brimars. I might have some time this coming weekend.
Alan
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Gents, any feedback on the different tubes yet? Just finished my quickie with Delco tubes. Sound it good, some microphonics, and would like to try some different stuff, love to hear what yall have to say.
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Did anyone find better sound quality other than less microphonics with other brands of tubes? I know one guy on the net
seems to be selling a brand as premium for $12.99 a tube and states that it goes in the Quickie....
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I have had a Quickie for five months (now with the PJCCS) and have tried a bunch of different tubes. I have at least 40 total and they were thoroughly tested before I bought them. I am running it right now with a CD player >Quickie>Fisher SA100>Fostex FF165K Horns with Gallo TR1 powered sub crossed around 80hz.
All of them are microphonic, but some more than others. However, none of them really howl or squeal like it would in a guitar amp (and I have had some squealers in my Marshall combo). I did pickup some Herbie's dampers and I think they help a little. I have come to believe that there is no huge difference between microphonics and manufacturer because they all have them, but maybe the RCA have a little less than others. I may even get the guitar amp dampers from Herbie's and add those so both tubes have two dampers each.
RCA 1940's - very well defined bass, clear mids and silky treble, one of the most balanced tubes; wide soundstage. Microphonics 3 out 10.
Raytheon VT-174 - similar bass and mids, smooth treble with a tiny bit of roll off; warmest tube, liquid, Very wide soundstage. Micro 5/10
Tung Sol - 1950's - huge bass, subdued mids and tons of treble but slightly edgy; average soundstage. Microphonics 6/10
RCA 1960's - Strong bass (more than Ray, less than TS), clear mids, very nice treble (less than TS, more than Ray) Very liquid; average soundstage. Microphonics 4/10
Sylvania 1950's - nice clear bass and low mids, liquid mid and highs, a very sweet sound; wide soundstage. Microphonics 6/10
Sylvania 1960's - didn't get to these yet, will update when or if I try them.
GE - deep bass and plenty of treble like the 50's Tung Sol but with better midrange, a very wide frequency range; a little smeared overall compared to the Sylvania. Very wide soundstage. Microphonics 5/10
Tung Sol 1960's - deep bass, improved midrange and sweeter treble than 50's and overall smoother without the edge; average soundstage. Microphonics 6/10 (an improvement over the 50's TS)
Right now I like the RCA's and Raytheon the best with the 50's Sylvania and 60's Tung Sol next.
I still am not sure if there were any actually made in Europe. If there are, I would like to try them. Cheers!
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NotBen, awesome analysis, thank you very much, where did you get the '40's RCAs?
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NotBen, this guy has some Mullards, but he is in Austrailia, I emailed and asked about cost of shipping.
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/~valventube/tubes0a2-5z4.html
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I've ordered some Amprex tubes from the 60's and Raytheons, and will post my findings (compared to the stock GE tubes) once they arrive.
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$15 shipping to the US
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The 40's RCA's came from a retired Air Force gentleman as well as some of the Sylvania, but the others came from a handful of different tube dealers.
My descriptions are very basic, I know, as I am used to describing tone in guitar amps, but if anyone wants further clarification about any of the tubes, just ask and I will try; one things I am pretty good at hearing is frequency and instrument separation (liquidity and depth) which I think comes from trying to find better note separation in a guitar amp.
One thing I have to say is the Quickie is a killer little preamp -- I love it.
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How do you tell the difference between 50's and 60's Sylvania tubes? Are the boxes different?
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The 60's Sylvania came in their original white military boxes with dates and have date codes on the glass in green printing and green Sylvania labels. The 50's came in the black and yellow Sylvania boxes with Yellow Sylvania printing on the glass and the dealer identified them as 50's. The getters, plates and micas look similar, I will have to check with a magnifying glass to see if I can ID any differences. The 50's didn't have any date codes so I am completely trusting the dealer for these.
I will try out the 60's and report back since those are much easier to ID.
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How are you rating microphonics? higher = better?
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How are you rating microphonics? higher = better?
oops, great question. No. The higher the number, the more microphonic.
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Just replaced the stock Delco's with a pair of RCA's, wow, what a difference, even cold out of the box, quite a huge
sound stage difference! The Delco's have a narrow small soundstage, the RCA's are wide as they can be.
Not sure what the vintage is, I don't see any dates on the box.
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I replaced the stock GE tubes with a) 1940's Raytheons, and b) 1960's Amprex "bugle boys" (French DL-92). The Raytheons were not much different than the stock GE's, unfortunately - maybe a bit warmer sounding, but with tons of microphonics and a small, compressed soundstage, just like the GE's. The Amprex tubes are like having a new amp - the highs and lows are much more extended, the soundstage is bigger, and there are very little microphonics! The difference between these and the GE's is huge, and I'm a bit of a skeptic when it comes to tube rolling, differences between capacitors, etc. The Amprex tubes sound so much clearer and more "real" than the smeared, rolled-off GE's - and can be driven harder without sounding congested. The biggest difference may be in the treble, which gives the music much more "air" and provides correct positioning cues, etc. This, along with a lack of microphonics at low volumes, leads to a blacker-sounding background and better detail recovery. These were $25/pair from Tube World, which was money well spent.
Interestingly, there does not seem to be much difference between various 6DN7 tubes run on the S.E.X. amp. Maybe these little 3S4's were subject to bigger tolerances and/or differences between manufacturers?
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After loving the improvement of the RCA's over my stock Delco's, I just dropped in a pair of Telefunkens, oh my god!
Talk about smooth highs without roll off, and deep wide sound stage....
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Ok, so I dropped in a pair of matched Mullards CV484 variants. Came in a white box, not sure if they are military or not.
Very close to the Telefunkens.
The Mullards are more forward on the highs and have a little simbilance to them, not much just a touch.
They do have a well deep sound stage, deeper that the Tele's by a margin.
Great sound. Very detailed.
It would almost be a matching to a system thing if I chose the Telefunkens or the Mullards.
If the system was super sensitive or on the bright side I would probably choose the Telefunkens. If the system was a bit laid back the Mullards would go in.
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Any links to the telefunkens?
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http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Telefunken-3S4-DL-92-CV-484-Pairs_W0QQitemZ300402432063QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item45f161583f
I should also mention that the Mullards have very nicely reinforced base, probably the best of the bunch.
I have noticed that after replacing the Alps I get less problems with static coming through the speakers when
I walk up to adjust the volume. Could have been a bad solder joint as PB mentioned.
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Wow, thanks!
I got a pair of Telefunken DL92 and a pair of the Mullard CV484 tubes from the guy in Denver on the auction site mentioned. Even the old boxes and packaging are cool. The Mullards have penciled numbers inside the box flaps that look like tube tester data to me. I'm listening to the Quickie with the Telefunken tubes now, and the first thing I noticed was better quality bass, not just a little more volume but more detail as well.
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http://www.tubecrazy.net/
Hi gang,
Just got some Mullards from this gentlemen. At first my order was missed due to a move and after I emailed a request for an update they rushed my the tubes at an addtional expense to them. Plus, they sent me a 2nd pair of DL92's for free!
I have not had a chance to hear them yet so, I will update as soon as I can.
It was sure nice to deal with a person online that takes care of their customers that well
q
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NotBen, this guy has some Mullards, but he is in Austrailia, I emailed and asked about cost of shipping.
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/~valventube/tubes0a2-5z4.html
Did this guy ever get back to you? I tried e-mailing him several times and never got a response.
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http://www.tubecrazy.net/
Hi gang,
Just got some Mullards from this gentlemen. At first my order was missed due to a move and after I emailed a request for an update they rushed my the tubes at an addtional expense to them. Plus, they sent me a 2nd pair of DL92's for free!
I have not had a chance to hear them yet so, I will update as soon as I can.
It was sure nice to deal with a person online that takes care of their customers that well
q
I swear I didn't know that Tubecrazy.net was run by a fellow "Bottlehead" ooops
Well the Mullards have tuned out to be one of the best purchases I have made in a very long time. The separation between voices/instruments has been dramatically increased. I know it's a common thing to say but I am hearing things that weren't there before. I have experienced this before but I had to really listen close for these type of improvements, and it was only with a few recordings. Now everything has changed in a good way. The only negative with this system is it is revealing my Charlize mnblks weaknesses in the upper mids. I had to put my Spud (6l6c Pentode) back in the mix...ahhh much much better. I'm enjoying this so much now that I've neglected my ForeplayIII. Not a problem though, been working on my digital source and I really wish the Bottlehead Dac was here, can't wait for that
Thx to all, and Paul for this improvement
q
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Nice, Q.
So what I learned from all this is you have a guilty conscience and an extra set of Mullards? Perhaps a donation to a fellow Bottlehead who needs a set of Mullards would help you feel better? Hahaha, just kidding!!! Thanks again for your help on my tube question from yesterday.
John
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Nice, Q.
So what I learned from all this is you have a guilty conscience and an extra set of Mullards? Perhaps a donation to a fellow Bottlehead who needs a set of Mullards would help you feel better? Hahaha, just kidding!!! Thanks again for your help on my tube question from yesterday.
John
Hi John,
IF I could I would mate. The freebies are Brimar DL92's. Haven't tried them yet. I think someone here has, and liked them. After I finish some work on my Spuds I might give them a try.
Got to get back to my FourplayIII soon, but these Quickies are a blast. I enjoy not having one hand behind my back when troubleshooting
q
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Q,
Nice to hear these are easy to trouble shoot! I have ordered the Mullards from Tubecrazy so I would have a set on hand when the Quickie kit arrives. Note to self: buy some batteries, too!
Take care, John
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I have ordered the Mullards from Tubecrazy so I would have a set on hand when the Quickie kit arrives.
I ordered Mullards from Tube Crazy as well. Did a Paypal payment and got an automated reply giving me an order number.
That was August 11 and no tubes yet and no reply to an email I sent to him. I don't mind a wait but I am a tad concerned.
Your tubes arrive yet? Any feedback?
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I have ordered the Mullards from Tubecrazy so I would have a set on hand when the Quickie kit arrives.
I ordered Mullards from Tube Crazy as well. Did a Paypal payment and got an automated reply giving me an order number.
That was August 11 and no tubes yet and no reply to an email I sent to him. I don't mind a wait but I am a tad concerned.
Your tubes arrive yet? Any feedback?
I have not yet had any correspondence from Tubecrazy. Yesterday, I got a UPS shipping notice from Seattle for a 2 lb package, so I know my Quickie and PJCCS kit are on the way! Perhaps we need to contact Tubecrazy and see what is going on. I assume they keep up with the Forum, so I'm a bit surprised not to have heard something yet.
John
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I have ordered the Mullards from Tubecrazy so I would have a set on hand when the Quickie kit arrives.
I ordered Mullards from Tube Crazy as well. Did a Paypal payment and got an automated reply giving me an order number.
That was August 11 and no tubes yet and no reply to an email I sent to him. I don't mind a wait but I am a tad concerned.
Your tubes arrive yet? Any feedback?
Your tubes are on the way.
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Thanks Paul!
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Thank you!! Thank you!!
I will be sure to report my impressions here when they show up.
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No tubes yet - sadness reigns.
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No tubes yet - sadness reigns.
I would suggest that you not wait too long to file a dispute. I just got the notice that PayPal refunded my $40 for my transaction with TubeCrazy. It had been 30 days with no communication with P.B. through any channel, including here, when I made my claim. PayPal allows disputes be filed only within 45 days of initiating a payment, so if I would have been much more patient with whatever issues P.B. is experiencing, I would have simply lost my money.
Better to have money and no tubes than no tubes and no money.
Jeff Ward
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Sorry to revive such an old thread, but any new insights on 3s4/DL92 tube sources for Quickie? Has Tubecrazy come through in the end? Any wisdom in trying out Ebay for tubes? What about Antique Electronic Supply, tubedepot and others? I have a very limited budget right now and would like to make as sure a purchase as I can. But every option seems to have drawbacks - either no idea what I'd be getting, no idea if the tubes would arrive, or the risks inherent in Ebay purchases (most of which have gone well for me so far...).
Thanks.
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Has Tubecrazy come through in the end?
No joy from Tubecrazy. I did not enter a dispute. Way too long now, too bad.
The Yahoo storefront is still there. Caveat emptor.
Can't answer the rest of your question but I am very interested what others have to say. Enjoy my PJCCS-Quickie very much and would be interested in tube rolling.
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I purchased some Amperex Bugle Boys from Tube World without any issues. I've also picked some tubes on ebay without any problems from dealers with great feedback and testing equipment.
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I'm still researching this, but so far I've found this supplier with Mullards and a few others: http://www.dbtubes.com/tube-detail.php?ID=2730.
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OK, I found NOS Mullard CV820/3S4 tubes on Ebay which seem to have worked out pretty well. He says NOS Mullard, and what little research I have done seems to suggest that's correct (not printed Mullard). They are 5
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Hmmm. Anyone know anything about this site? http://amperexusa.com/node/131 (http://amperexusa.com/node/131). Not sure if they are Amperex tubes or not but I've contacted them to find out more. Shopping cart doesn't show up as secure, and I've never seen the site before, but it came up high on the list of a search for Amperex 3s4. Thanks.
Edit: a whois lookup shows godday.com as the owner of the site!?
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Email response from the amperexusa.com site says they only have GE and RCA brands of 3S4 tubes, priced at $2 each. $6.50 for shipping either 4 or 8 to New England area.
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They usually run about $15 - $20 ea. I can attest to the very low harmonics with the bugle boys. They've been great!
Joel
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I'm still researching this, but so far I've found this supplier with Mullards and a few others: http://www.dbtubes.com/tube-detail.php?ID=2730.
Ordered these. They arrived fairly quickly. Marked Mullard but made in Holland so I'm guessing Amperex..