Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Quickie => Topic started by: aragorn723 on July 01, 2013, 01:06:43 PM
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Hi,
Has anyone done any serious listening for the tone of instruments on the stock Quickie? I play a couple different instruments-mostly piano and guitar, and have noticed that tube equipment has special ability to create music in a more life-like way (closer to the sound of an actual instrument). You know when you go to a store and hear music (but don't see the musicians) and instantly recognize that its live and not a recording? A lot of stereo equipment i've heard has trouble accurately reproducing the tone of the piano, how does the Quickie do in this area?
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I couldn't agree more with the observation that tubes make it real! The simple Quickie definaty makes it real, either stock or modded. What modding does IMO and experience, is accentuate the good stuff in a way that makes it all bigger cleaner easier more mature and all those things that you would expect from a high end sound. What the tube does, is what it does. The rest of the gear needs to get out of the way!
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Though I don't have the Quickie hooked up currently (needs a re-build to undo some experimentation from last summer), I did think that it made saxophones sound much more realistic than when not in the playback chain. This was especially true with the plate chokes, which tended to compress and "wet" the signal with second-harmonic distortion as the volume pot neared its highest setting. I think that partially explains why tubes sound more like real instruments vs. solid-state, which tends to either have no harmonics whatsoever and lots of negative feedback, or has lots of odd-order harmonics, which lend a harsh and "brassy" quality to a signal. Also, the tube harmonic spectrum is monotonically decaying, which also tends to mimic the arrangement of harmonics for a loud instrumental sound in real life.
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Well said Angelo! The magic is in the harmonics. Tubes do it just right. It is pretty close to magic IMO. I haven't heard class A SS done right ex. Pass Labs. There is some of that 'tubiness' there from what I have heard.
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Interestingly, it seems that FET's also have that "monotonically-deaying harmonic spectrum" when placed in a supporting circuit similar to that of a triode - e.g., very simple, few parts, little or no feedback.
I did breadboard a Class-A, single-ended MOSET circuit once and plugged in some headphones, and the sound was like tubes on steroids. The warmth was still there, but the bass was much more solid. However, the problem was one of heat - I wasn't sure how to keep the MOSEFTs cool without using heat sinks the size of an old Cadillac's tail fins. I would imagine this means no 100WPC, single-ended MOSEFT amps yet exist.......
The Quickie is an awesome way to add some tube magic to just about any type of playback chain. I'm still amazed that it's just $99 - definitely one of the best deals in audio.
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Tubes do timbre. Timbre is the quality of sound that lets us distinguish the same note(s) played on different instruments. It is this unique characteristic that defines the difference between say a French horn, cornet, trumpet and/or trombone playing the same note. It is all in the harmonics and wave front differences from the different tubing and bells for brass. Same for strings, woodwinds, all instruments, including human voice. The recording venue also has its unique timbre.
Piano is extremely challenging because there are so many constituent sounds making up the timbre. Think about the piano - keys, hammers, felt, unison strings, pedals, dampers, soundboard, frame and reflecting top, (grands), all contribute to the sound of the instrument. Tubes struggle with the piano, solid state tends to make all pianos sound like electronic keyboards. That is why human vocals and piano are great for critical differentiation when listening for amp attributes.
Negative feedback and switching distortion make it difficult for solid state devices to capture timbre. Now I may p!$$ off a few folks, but the more "sand" in tube amp circuitry makes tubes sound more like solid state. Overly regulated power and filament supplies can make tube amps sound more detailed, but, IMO, at the loss of timbre. A simple, Class A FET circuit can sound wonderful, but forget about all of the regulation and high power...it is all about the first watt whether tubes or SS.
It is this elegant simplicity that make BH kit so wonderful!!!
Cheers,
Geary
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Could not agree more with what was said before. My modded Quickie sounds so much nicer than SS when acoustic instruments are replayed. We are fortunate to have a Steinway Grand Piano at home that my SO is playing and I can honestly say that the Q is pretty darn close in tonality, given good recordings of course.
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That's a big complement considering how hard piano is for most sustems
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Could not agree more with what was said before. My modded Quickie sounds so much nicer than SS when acoustic instruments are replayed. We are fortunate to have a Steinway Grand Piano at home that my SO is playing and I can honestly say that the Q is pretty darn close in tonality, given good recordings of course.
That definitely is a good compliment.. I have been lucky enough to play a few Steinways, by far they are the nicest pianos :) It sounds like the general consensus is that the Quickie does a really good job with instrument tones, though i'm guessing the amp contributes somewhat to the tone also? Does the preamp have more impact on tone than the amp?
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Both preamp and amp have an impact as far as my memory serves me. Which one has more, I do not really know. I did not make that comparison.
Here is a good piano recording (vinyl). The guy is probably not well known across the pond, but he is on par with Bill Evans and the likes. He plays on a Boesendorfer Imperial piano. Great Jazz pieces extremely nicely recorded and signed by the artist!
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/jazz/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Dauner-geb-1935-Tribute-To-The-Past-Solo-Piano-180g-Limited-Edition-signiert/hnum/4986962?lang=en (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/jazz/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Dauner-geb-1935-Tribute-To-The-Past-Solo-Piano-180g-Limited-Edition-signiert/hnum/4986962?lang=en)
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In response to amp vs preamp for the best influence on tone, that would probably be a system related variable IMO. For sure you want to start with the preamp, some even put tubes in the DAC. I'm not sold on tubes in the DAC idea. I think that allows laziness in design. Whether to have tubes in both amp and pre is up for debate and personal preferance. It makes sense to me from a purity of design standpoint to take advantage of tubes in the pre (no need for tons of iron etc).
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I should explain a bit more about my opinion re. Tubes in DAC's! That opinion is based DAC's that have used tubes to clean up the sound of an inferior design and have not benefitted from the tube output stage. With some of those designs you could switch from tube to op amp to select the best sound. With that said, I'm SURE that if and when Bottlehead releases the hounds with their new DAC it will be tubbie and it will be wonderful!
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Both preamp and amp have an impact as far as my memory serves me. Which one has more, I do not really know. I did not make that comparison.
Here is a good piano recording (vinyl). The guy is probably not well known across the pond, but he is on par with Bill Evans and the likes. He plays on a Boesendorfer Imperial piano. Great Jazz pieces extremely nicely recorded and signed by the artist!
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/jazz/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Dauner-geb-1935-Tribute-To-The-Past-Solo-Piano-180g-Limited-Edition-signiert/hnum/4986962?lang=en (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/jazz/detail/-/art/Wolfgang-Dauner-geb-1935-Tribute-To-The-Past-Solo-Piano-180g-Limited-Edition-signiert/hnum/4986962?lang=en)
Thanks for the link! I'm listening to that now, sounds really good 8) Definitely never heard of him,but I do enjoy Coltrane and Miles Davis a lot. Have you seen his music on mp3? A friend recently got me into digital audio (high res, like 24bit 192khz stuff) and experimenting with dacs (mostly the audioengine d1) so mp3 is my primary source now.
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FWIW, I presently have a different pre-amp in my system(tubed, using 6SN7's) and yah it does sound good, BUT I am eager to get the Q back into the system. From my experience this thing is a rare piece indeed. No apologies for it from me.
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Simplicity so often wins out over complex designs.
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Simplicity so often wins out over complex designs.
Could not agree more. Many high end tube amps and pre's are overly engineered just to prove "competitive superiority", not to serve the music.
Cheers,
Geary
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Since we are claiming simplicity, it seems that a good many things operate better when simplified. Is that some kind of universal law, or does it describe our limitations? Seriously, it does make me wonder.
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There are a number of things that in my experience need a certain sophistication. Can't for the life of me think of one now.
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I have been reading/studying Nelson Pass's DIY site and some of his projects, and the phases they have undergone over the years. Whats interesting is that as the projects get more complex in those successive iterations they do, to some extent sound 'better' as they get more complex, ex. adding a CCS (like the PJCCS), etc. There isnt a huge difference though, and the simple single ended, no feedback design (even in SS) yields superior results in many cases.