Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Quickie => Topic started by: aragorn723 on October 09, 2014, 04:38:13 PM
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Hi,
Can someone explain bypass caps? What is the advantage of it, and how are they wired in? Thanks,
Dave
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Some caps, most notably electrolytics, behave badly at high audio frequencies and above - they have too much impedance in the form of resistance, inductance, and non-linear artifacts. By paralleling them with a better-behaved capacitor, that cap will take over the job of delivering small impedance at high frequencies.
The downside is that at the transition point, where both types are handling the current together, they will interact with resonances and modulation effects. Since there is no available solid data on the bad behavior (and sometimes it depends on the age of the cap), you can never be sure you have made a good choice of bypass - you just have to try different combinations and listen.
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Has anyone tried bypassing the electrolytics or coupling caps in the Quickie? I'm thinking about putting in some Russian K75-10 caps for coupling caps and bypassing them with teflon. How do you calculate the value for the bypass cap?
Dave
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How do you calculate the value for the bypass cap?
Read the post right above this one.
-PB
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so you just pick one and listen to it?? sounds like the value isn't very important?
Dave
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It is a pretty subjective call. I would try the interstage coupling caps first. No bypass. Listen and decide if you like the difference, if any, especially with the K75-10 caps. They are hybrid paper, polyethylene terephthalate, (Mylar) and aluminum foil in oil capacitor and, IMO, have a distinctive sonic signature when used in the signal path. (BTW, this is similar construction to vaunted Audio Note caps.) If the typical Russian PIO, (K40/KBG) is Irish whiskey, the K75's are Irish whiskey with a splash Bailey's Irish cream. Think tipped toward a fuller, sweeter midrange. Usually quite pleasant. In most circuits I have loved them, but, some, not so much. If you think you need a bit more treble presence, then try a bypass. I'd try a small value film/foil or Russian Silver Mica with the K75's.
As a general rule of thumb, for power supply/decoupling caps, I use a bypass ratio of about 1/10th the main cap, but this can vary based on the capacitance of the main cap. (Almost always electrolytic) For signal coupling caps, I usually start with 1/100th. This is almost always, (read always for me), an improvement in the quality of the B+ voltage. Film is almost always preferable to electrolytic (I always bypass the last PS cap!)
As PJ said, you can experience some phase or other anomalies due to the interaction of the caps for signal coupling. You just have to try, listen, decide.
BTW, give the K75's about 100 hours to fully settle-in. IME, most PIO type caps take about 40 hours, but the K75's need more. You can't really go "love or hate" until the caps are burned in.
Let us know how it goes. There is no right or wrong...just "Do YOU like it?"!
Cheers,
Geary
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so you just pick one and listen to it?? sounds like the value isn't very important?
Dave
I did not mean to say it's not important, only that you can't reliably predict what the best value is. Or the worst value, for that matter. Trust your own ears, don't trust anyone who tells you what value to use!
Actually other people's experience can be quite useful, but in this case only if they are using the same caps in the same circuit, and you already know their ears react similarly to yours. This combination does not happen very often. More frequently you will see posts saying basically "this worked for my ears in my circuit with my caps, therefor it will work for your ears in your completely different circuit with your completely different caps." That's just baloney.
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It is a pretty subjective call. I would try the interstage coupling caps first. No bypass. Listen and decide if you like the difference, if any, especially with the K75-10 caps. They are hybrid paper, polyethylene terephthalate, (Mylar) and aluminum foil in oil capacitor and, IMO, have a distinctive sonic signature when used in the signal path. (BTW, this is similar construction to vaunted Audio Note caps.) If the typical Russian PIO, (K40/KBG) is Irish whiskey, the K75's are Irish whiskey with a splash Bailey's Irish cream. Think tipped toward a fuller, sweeter midrange. Usually quite pleasant. In most circuits I have loved them, but, some, not so much. If you think you need a bit more treble presence, then try a bypass. I'd try a small value film/foil or Russian Silver Mica with the K75's.
As a general rule of thumb, for power supply/decoupling caps, I use a bypass ratio of about 1/10th the main cap, but this can vary based on the capacitance of the main cap. (Almost always electrolytic) For signal coupling caps, I usually start with 1/100th. This is almost always, (read always for me), an improvement in the quality of the B+ voltage. Film is almost always preferable to electrolytic (I always bypass the last PS cap!)
As PJ said, you can experience some phase or other anomalies due to the interaction of the caps for signal coupling. You just have to try, listen, decide.
BTW, give the K75's about 100 hours to fully settle-in. IME, most PIO type caps take about 40 hours, but the K75's need more. You can't really go "love or hate" until the caps are burned in.
Let us know how it goes. There is no right or wrong...just "Do YOU like it?"!
Cheers,
Geary
Geary,
The interstage coupling caps are the 150uf, right? Is it just a simple remove/replace? Any particular type of caps that would be good to try here?
Dave
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Dave,
The Quickie has an output cap (only one stage so no interstage). That one is 2.2uF. The cathode bypass caps are the electrolytics. They are 1,000uF. This is according to the schematic I have.
The schematic shows that the cathode bypass only needs to be a 6V cap, Bottlehead uses a 35V that is probably also used in another kit. Mouser and Digi-key sell some nice Polypropylene film caps for a few bucks. Here is my search for a 1uF. You could change it to 10uF to get the 100:1 ratio:
http://ca.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Film-Capacitors/_/N-9x371?P=1yznbzsZ1z0wrj5Z1z0x7xm
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They were changed to 150uf in the Quickie v1.1. From memory it only sees 2-3v in normal operation, Partsconnexion list 220uf 4v Blackgate caps for $3 each which i always wanted to try in that position, though somehow i seem to forget about it every time i place an order.
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I have liked the Black Gates I have used. But never got to use them in a cathode bypass position. I bought a pair to go in the EF86 cathode position in my Eros and now I can't find them. Too much crap in my work room!
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That looks like a good option. Audio note has an article on these, and apparently uses them in their electronics. Would it matter that the capacitance is higher than the Quickie value?
Dave
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A larger value should be no problem.
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what would it do, if anything, to the sound?
Dave
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Increasing the value of the cap will not change the sound appreciably. In calculations you might get a bass note or two more but in reality the frequency response will probably sound the same to you.
However the change in quality of the cap will make a sonic difference.
I have long said that caps are like spices. I like garlic, some others don't like garlic. I don't like mint, others do like mint. So it is a try it and see. It allows you to personalize the sound to your liking once you find the type of cap you like.
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Funny thing about the black gate caps - apparently they are electrolytic? Some of the Quickies on this site had film caps for the 150 uf cap, I guess the black gate option is a more cost effective one? (haven't seen any inexpensive film caps, they seem to be rated for high voltages). Of course this is subjective, but would the quality of the sound be that much better in film caps vs. the black gates? (Maybe in terms of value the black gate is the way to go). This would just be a simple remove and replace of the existing 150uf cap, right?
Dave
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Yes they are lytics, and many people swear they were the best ever made. How much of that is true, and how much of that is mythology i dont know. There are a plenty of other options from Panasonic, Nichicon, and Elna that may be as good, if not better.
Poly film caps are also an option, but they are more expensive, and physically very large. Most 200uf poly caps are the size of a beer can!
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For $2.37 a piece, it's worth a shot! Do I just take out the old caps and pop in the new ones the same way?
Dave
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Yes just a straight swap. Before you do measure the voltage across those caps and make sure its under 4v, ideally under 2v. Mine has been modded a bit so i cant use mine as a reference.
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The voltage is reading 1.5V. Wish I had changed these before putting in the k75's, would have been much easier ::)
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for 3 bucks, go for it. Satisfy your curiosity, (and ours).
I am talking about the cathode bypass cap here.
If you decide to make changes. Before you put a new cap in, play it with no cap at all. That will give you a sense of what it does and its effect on the sound...John
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If i'm looking at the schematic correctly, there are 1k resistors in parallel with the 150uf caps, so this would eliminate the need to add a jumper when running the Quickie without the cap. Could it damage something by not having the cap?
Dave
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The voltage is reading 1.5V. Wish I had changed these before putting in the k75's, would have been much easier ::)
Just resurrected my PJCCS quickie and i'm seeing ~1.75v across the caps so it seems comfortably below the 4v rating. Let us know what you think when you get them fitted..
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Should be interesting. The blackgates have a big following, some think they are the best caps ever made. Would changing these make a big difference in sound? Might have to order a set of these tonight.
Dave
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They were changed to 150uf in the Quickie v1.1. From memory it only sees 2-3v in normal operation, Partsconnexion list 220uf 4v Blackgate caps for $3 each which i always wanted to try in that position, though somehow i seem to forget about it every time i place an order.
Do they normally take a few days to fill orders? I place an order with partsconnexion Monday, and got a confirmation.. No word on shipping yet.
Dave
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I have no idea, i'm in Ireland so anywhere i order from takes a month to get here, hence i pay no attention to processing/shipping times :)
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I guess a few days to fill the order isn't bad for something that is out of production. Just got an email that they shipped. For the money, it should be a fun experiment! How long do these take to break in?
Dave
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Dave,
I agree, PCX has an odd procedure. They acknowledge your order. Sometimes ask for verification, then ship a few days later. But I believe it is a small operation. I have always gotten good service from them.
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Hi everyone,
Just wanted to say I got the black gates in! The Quickie improved somewhat without the bypass caps-it opened up the treble/detail, but it sounded grainy. With the black gates in, the effect was similar, but the sound is very smooth. There are some moments when the guitars sound reallly goood, can't wait to try that out more. The details are a lot more defined, and the edges of fine detail sounds really good too. Overall, it is a very noticable improvement over stock.
Dave