Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Digital => Topic started by: Natural Sound on March 10, 2012, 02:39:11 PM
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We have a thread that discusses the Mac Mini and Windows based servers. Not much being said about Linux servers? I have a fanless mini ITX computer running Ubuntu at the house and I love it. Because its fanless its super quiet. It uses an intel atom chip and integrated graphics. Nothing fancy, just a basic computer that does what I need it to do.
Are any of you guys using a Linux OS based music server? I would imagine you could strip down one of the popular distro's and have a decent little setup for music.
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And at a bargain price!
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,2736.0.html (http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,2736.0.html)
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Sounds like a fun project for a geek like me. My only issue is with the Ethernet hookup from the Alix to my router (in another room). My house simply isn't wired for it and the Alix doesn't have wireless capabilities. Then again, I think I have an unused wireless bridge around here somewhere. Hmmm... I need to ponder this for a bit.
Thanks Doc.
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Tom,
Often these SBCs have mini PCI slots for adding ethernet and sometimes even firewire interfaces. I use one of the Alix boxes configured with Monowall as the firewall in our community's shared network and it has been running for probably 4 years now without a hitch.
They do make nice, basic music servers, but also have their limitations. They are generally limited in memory and processing power, which although fine for straight, native rate playback of music files, can not do things like EQ, SRC, etc. so you have to have a dac that can accept up to the same maximum sample rate of the highest resolution file you have -- though they will do 24/192 no problem.
As for the stripped down distro -- there already is one, and a very good one based on debian -- Voyage/MPD. Just google voyage linux and you'll find the wiki, which can take you through all the steps.
I had two of the same Alix servers that Doc does but sold them a while back -- only because I didn't really have the time or inclination to keep playing around with things and because the mmac mini does it for mme.
Also, if anybody is interested in Doc's alix board, I have a d-link D323 NAS with a pair of 1 tb drives in it that I have hacked to run NFS, so it is pretty much plug and play (if you know what you're doing with linux networking) with the alix board
-- Jim
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They do make nice, basic music servers, but also have their limitations. They are generally limited in memory and processing power, which although fine for straight, native rate playback of music files, can not do things like EQ, SRC, etc. so you have to have a dac that can accept up to the same maximum sample rate of the highest resolution file you have -- though they will do 24/192 no problem.
Drats, thats what I was afraid of. My current DAC is limited to 16/44. From what you are saying I wont be able to play 24/96 files downloaded from, say HD Tracks unless I upgraded my DAC?
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Yeah, you will need an outboard sound card like an EMU 0404 USB or similar to play anything, even 16/44. I have one, but it is doing duty in the lab these days.
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Tom,
It all depends on how the dac handles higher res formats -- some just truncate the data, some don't, and I honestly don't know what they do with the sample rate, but SRC, if it works, is just bad on the linux boxes. Really just not enough horsepower and working memory for the real-time flooating point ops so you would have to pre-re-sample (if you will) all your files down before playing them.
My Tranquility SE dac handled all the resolutions I tried, but only the native 16/44/48 ones sounded their best.
Unfortunately, I think this really falls into the "you just have to try and see" caategory, at least in my limited linux music server experience.
It is also a very significant performance improvement to go to a linear or battery DC supply.
HTH,
Jim
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This thread caught my attention because of the recent release (and complete sellout) of the Raspberry Pi computer module. This is basically a credit-card size fan-less computer designed to run scaled-down Linux distros and serve as a cheap (25 or 35 dollars) way to get kids learning about computers.
At 700Mz it can't do a whole lot at once but it can do quite a bit if dedicated to task. This seems like a great experimenter's platform and as soon as I can get my hands on one (or two or three), I'm going to start experimenting.
Has anyone else considered this route for a Linux music server?
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Randall,
That board looks very similar to the Alix board only smaller. I see no reason why you couldn't use it with Voyage/MPD as a micro music server. Let us know how it works out for you. From the little I've read about this computer card you may have a hard time getting your hands on one though.
In a complex world thats often over complicated I've always enjoyed taking the minimalist approach. I guess thats why I like the Bottlehead methodology so much. Use the fewest amount of parts in the signal path, use high quality parts, make it affordable to many and leave lots of room for experimentation and upgrades. It sounds like Raspberry Pi follows this same philosophy.
Keep us informed and let us know what you think.
EDIT: I just noticed that the Raspberry Pi is ARM based and not x86 architecture. Voyage is x86 based.
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I an using a Vortexbox, which is a Linux based system...John
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Yeah, you will need an outboard sound card like an EMU 0404 USB or similar to play anything, even 16/44. I have one, but it is doing duty in the lab these days.
Hey Dan, not sure if you have seen this or not: http://www.audiodesignguide.com/HiResolution/EMU0404/index.html (http://www.audiodesignguide.com/HiResolution/EMU0404/index.html) He talks about using the 0404 to play 24/192 files, and he also has a link to a free "test library of hi-res music" Here is the music link for those who need some free hi-res: http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html (http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html)
Anyway, I cannot really understand much of what he says because of the language barrier and the fact that he does not really explain what is going on, and his schematics are beyond my level of comprehension. At any rate, it may be something worth trying once the BH DAC is out and completed in my household. Curious what your thoughts are on his 0404 ideas.
Ron
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I've been using Unix/Linux now for about twenty years. I really like the philosophy of open source software. I wont get into my disdain for Microsoft. This isn't the time or the place for that. Well anyway, for $90 I couldn't pass up Doc's generous offer. A couple of weeks ago I sent him the dough and a box arrived a few days later via the brown truck. This weekend I finally had a chance to spend some time getting it configured. I'm happy to report that ALIX is now feeding beautiful music to my Crack/HD-600 system with the d/a decoding duties being taken care of by a VA Labs DAC. The file server in the other room is running on my Mini-ITX Atom running Ubuntu Linux. I'm using my iPod touch as a wireless remote to control the headless ALIX unit via the MPoD app. Its a match made in heaven. I'm really liking what I'm hearing so far. This should hold me over while I investigate the Mac Mini options [hint, hint, Jim] and the anticipated release of the Bottlehead DAC.
This is fun. Thanks again Doc!
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Thank you! I'm am so glad that it went to someone who used it as I had intended.
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I an using a Vortexbox, which is a Linux based system...John
John I was wondering if you are using a Vortexbox appliance, or did you install it on another system? I received an atom based mini and was considering installing vortexbox and using it with my Logitech Squeezebox. Are you happy with it's performance?
Cheers,
Shawn
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Hi Shawn, I have the Appliance, I had looked at the Atom but at the time the Appliance was not much more $. I like it lot it was very easy to get going and is a good pairing with a Squeezebox as it uses Squeeze-server, or whatever they call it these days, as the interface to play the music. I have a Duet, so I can use the remote to control it which is very cool. it even works without the Duet. If you have wireless, you can use any DAC with the remote. I can give you the details of my rather simple setup if you are interested. As to the performance, I have not compared it to a fully tweaked Mac Mini But I was running i-tunes on a stand alone PC and this is much better...John
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Thanks for the reply John. I considered a vbox appliance, but I got the atom based mini for free. So all I need is a HD and memory. I have a touch and have been using squeezepad as my remote (Ipad app), much nicer than the supplied remote. I downloaded the Vortexbox ISO and as soon as my HD shows up I'm going to give it a whirl.
Cheers,
Shawn
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This thread caught my attention because of the recent release (and complete sellout) of the Raspberry Pi computer module. This is basically a credit-card size fan-less computer designed to run scaled-down Linux distros and serve as a cheap (25 or 35 dollars) way to get kids learning about computers.
At 700Mz it can't do a whole lot at once but it can do quite a bit if dedicated to task. This seems like a great experimenter's platform and as soon as I can get my hands on one (or two or three), I'm going to start experimenting.
Has anyone else considered this route for a Linux music server?
I got a Rasberry Pi a few months ago. I have it set up as a media player on the flatscreen in my bedroom. It was so much fun I bought two more. I knew that I wanted to integrate one of the "pi's" into my audio system. Since I already had Doc's old ALIX computer set up with Voyage MPD, feeding my VA Labs DAC and sounding sweet. I decided to leave well enough alone on the client end. So then I started poking around to see about using the credit card size computer along with one of my Terrabyte USB drives as a NAS server. After loading Debian Linux on the SD card I was up and running in no time. As some have eluded to, this little dude is only a 700 MHz. computer. It's not going to break any benchmarking records. But while serving up FLAC files to the ALIX the CPU usage never goes above 20 percent or so.And in between songs it rests around 2 to 3 percent. So the processing power is more than sufficient for sending my FLAC collection over the network. The cool part is that it only consumes 3 watts at the mains. This was verified on my "Kill A Watt" plug in meter.
I have heard of people installing MPD on the pi. Most of the set ups involved computer speakers so they weren't going for anything high end like us bottleheads require. But who knows, maybe it's a jewel waiting to be discovered. I may experiment some more after the holidays when I have time.
Bottom line: This $35 computer has a lot of potential. :)
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I have almost no idea about the tech speak but Oh My does it read like a dreamy little rig.
Photos?
Cheers,
Stephen
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I have almost no idea about the tech speak but Oh My does it read like a dreamy little rig.
Photos?
Cheers,
Stephen
I'll see if I can take some pictures this weekend.
I've been listening for a few hours a day since I set up the new file server. Not a single issue. I'm a happy camper!
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Had to chime in here as I've been running a Squeezebox server for just about ten years now, most of it on an Ubuntu server that also hosts a MythTV that does DVR duty for the house. Overall, despite Logitech having purchased the company, the server is pretty nice. The hardware is just fine for the music that I want instant access to from any room, and I love the ability to stream Pandora and synchronize any combination of client hardware.
Worth a look.
arri
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Arri,
Only problem is that the squeezeboxes have now been officially discontinued by Logitech, as will the support for logitech media server. Probably a bad decision on their part, but what can you do?
-- Jim
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Hey Tom,
Just curious if you've tried the Raspberry Pie with MPD serving a stream to a usb dac?
-- Jim
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Tom,
I decided to order an alix 2d2 board, enclosure and CF card (actually two of each) as I want to use these in my bedroom headphone system and our living room system.
I traded a guy a dac I had for a DSpeaker anti-mode DSP/dac/preamp/headphone amp for the media room system, which I need to use one mac mini down there (for video as well as tunes). Then I can use the alix boxes with my iFi and micromega dacs -- which are both 24/192.
Anyway, the dsp thing is way out of character for me, but that room is going to be really difficult so the DSP may be at least part of the answer -- the fact that I can plug all sources I have into it, use it as a preamp (which means building the steromour as a power amp) and it is remote controlled and has a headphone out could make it the perfect solution.
So, no need for any updates on the raspberry pie -- unless you want to. :-)
-- Jim
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Hey Tom,
Just curious if you've tried the Raspberry Pie with MPD serving a stream to a usb dac?
-- Jim
No, not yet. But it looks like someone already compiled an image to do just that. http://www.raspyfi.com/raspyfi-quick-start-guide/ (http://www.raspyfi.com/raspyfi-quick-start-guide/)
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Hi Tom,
Very interesting -- after parusing that site a bit I just had to go and order a raspberrypie starter kit. I think that with a couple tricks I may be able to build a very small, self-contained music player with dac, storage drive and wireless control interface based on the revision B board, and not use usb for both the storage drive and dac interface... we'll see, but the gears are spinning ;_).
-- Jim
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You guys are killing me. I'm just trying to learn how to use Voyager MPD and now your moving on to other configurations. I'll never be able to keep up.
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You guys are killing me. I'm just trying to learn how to use Voyager MPD and now your moving on to other configurations. I'll never be able to keep up.
Voyage MPD is tried, true and very stable. The Raspberry Pi stuff is still new and will probably have bugs. You should probably stick with Voyage MPD for now.
PS: You have a PM.
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So, raspberry pie aside, I'm also very much planning on building an alix or two. In fact, I've been doing a little thinking on how to get the alix to work as a more or less state of the art usb dac server, because all my dacs are, and are likely to be, usb preferred, or usb-only inputs. It looks like it may be possible to use one of the PCI express headers on the alix board with a pci express to pci-mini adaptor and then connect one of the SOTM usb ports to that, add a couple of good linear regulated supplies, and feed the alix with a NAS over ethernet, and have something very special. I've found a couple of the necessary bridges, but no idea what the pricing on them is, and the SOTM card is not cheap at $360, but even still, this could end up being somewhat, if not a lot, less expensive than the mac mini based solution, would be totally silent, use hardly any power, and has the potential for truly state of the art streaming to any usb dac.
The SOTM card also has a switch for turning off the 5v coming out of the usb port, so you can experiment with this and if your dac does not need the 5v supply, and will work without it having it present on the incoming usb connection, you also just took the quality up another notch or so, maybe more. Of course this won't fit in the standard alix enclosures, but that's a minor inconvenience.
So, that's the thought for the day -- no idea if this will really work or not, and how much hacking and tweaking will be involved, but to me it seems like a verry worthwhile experiment, especially if it can outperform the mac mini based approach -- which I certainly can't complain about at this point. But with the alix, it's dead silent, has no video or keyboard interface, lots and lots of typical linux os processes can be shutdown, the kernel stripped to the bare essentials, MPD installed and your favorite smartphone, tablet, and even other devices can be used for remote control.
Anybody esle on board for this experiment?
-- Jim
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Hey Guys - I have been using Squeezbox server (Linux) with the Transporter for quite some time. Built my system around it. I was very happy with the sound and I liked using eternet (could run long cables, cable quality was unimportant etc.) I did find that hard wired ethernet sounded better than wireless with the Transporter. I loved the flexability of Squeezebox server etc, etc. and so on.
In terms of sound quality, IMO and experience, USB has at this point in time superseded the ethernet protocol. I have even compared the digital outputs from the Transporter to USB converted to SPDIF output both going to the Gungnir. For the USB I was using JRiver as the software. This has been a recent revelation for me, although I have expected it. I have been reading about many diehard Squeezbox fans switching to USB (ex. John Darko).
With that said, it would be a fun project to build a dedicated music server around Linux and a laptop. I really love the almost infinite ways that digital can be used to create great sounding music. It seems that the bleeding edge of digital audiophiledome is shifting to those areas, such as dedicated servers/players SSD drives, software etc. USB is maturing very quickly. - Cheers!
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Eric,
There's much more to it than the communication protocol used, and what you're moving across it. Standard 10/100 mbs ethernet is barely tested with 24/192 files, even with protocol overhead included. But we'll see what happens.
On the pci-mini to pci-express, I ordered one from a Canadian company, Amfeltec.com, today. They were the only ones who offered several power options, so I ordered the SKU: 037-03, which is powered by an external 12 volt supply. So it looks like I'll build a linear regulated supply with three regulators -- 12v for the alix board, another 12v for the mini-pci to pci express adaptor, and a 6v supply for the SOTM card -- if I'm remembering correctly what it requires.
Other expansion ideas could include using the second mini-pci slot (on the alix 2D2 board) for either a firewire 800 adaptor, or perhaps an esata interface.. Then one could have storage all local and use the ethernet for transferring files only. Then for a stand-alone server (no NAS or network connection) you could plug in a small usb wireless adaptor for remote control.
If I do any of this it will be later on after I get the basic Alix working with the SOTM usb card. My gut feeling is that this will be a rather remarkable usb server.
-- Jim
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I have been doing a lot of research on building a Linux music computer and to me it looks like the Alix computers are a very good solution for the price. It is an established product that appears to work well for this function.
I know that Tom and Jim have been using the Voyage MPD verson of Linuxn but wanted to know if anyone has tried MPDpup? If so what did you think? Looks like a very light Linux build.
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Brad,
I have not tried this yet, but it is a possibility. One of the nice things about all of this is that you can have as many different builds/configs as you want, each on it's own CF card, then swap CF cards to see which works best for you.
My mini-PCI to PCIE adaptor came today and fits great, but of course I don't have the SOTM card yet (and won't for a while, but this first step is done.
-- Jim
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Brad,
So, I just took a quick skim of the mpdpup stuff and it looks interesting, but it appears to be targetted at folks who don't want to learn linux internals and such as it provides wizzards, GUI tools and other things that are really of no use to me personally. And the playback software remains MPD. So, while I have no interest in this personally, it could be a great place for people not comfortable with linux and device/network configuration to get going with this stuff.
The GUI stuff is not accessible to me anyway, so I apologize but I will not be able to help others through this, as much as I would like to help.
In the mean time, I've been looking at some of the options in front of me, and I see some great places for the RPi and some places for the alix, and I now really want to build a NAS based system with the alix, SOTM usbx card SOTM battery supply, and separate linear regulated supplies for the alix card and the mini-pci to pcie card. All this looks like it will support PCM and DSD with DoP 1.0 and thus could be a really great server for my Sonore usb/dsd dac.
I also just noticed that the Voyage folks have a new usb to I2S/spdif interface card, so there is yet another possiblity for the BH dac and others with no usb, or usb 1.1 only connectivity.
I also just got, as part of a trade, a 3 meter, brand new WireWorld Starlight 3.0 usb cable -- wow, what a nice thing this is -- heavy duty comes to ind here as it is close to 3/4" wide but in the same flat-ish cable config that the other WW usb cables are. And it's backwards compatible. So, why the usb 3.0 if I'm only running 2.0 capable devices? Well, because it didn't cost me anything, and at least on paper, the conductors and shielding seem to be more robust, and I don't think that can really hurt anyting, and may even be an upgrade. Should find out this weekend.
Again, I'd really encrourage those who are curious about this stuff to look at the MPDpup distro -- it may be just what lots of folks will want. Lots of info, including the presence of the developer, on computeraudiophile.com
-- Jim
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Jim,
any progress with the ALIX and Voyage MPD? I have been looking at a couple of options everything from the ALIX and a fanless Shuttle. I have not been able to get any of the MPD Linux builds to work on the computers I currently have. Not sure if it is me or the hardware. I will keep trying, but with all the agrivation it makes me want to get a Mac Mini.
Brad
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Jim,
any progress with the ALIX and Voyage MPD? I have been looking at a couple of options everything from the ALIX and a fanless Shuttle. I have not been able to get any of the MPD Linux builds to work on the computers I currently have. Not sure if it is me or the hardware. I will keep trying, but with all the agrivation it makes me want to get a Mac Mini.
Brad
Brad, Can you give some more specifics on how you are configuring MPD? Are you using 2 computers or one? Which software are you using?
I found that most of the problems I had when configuring my system was with read write permissions on the hard drive. If the hard drive that contains your music files is formatted in FAT32 or NTFS, Linux cannot [easily] change permissions. When I used a Linux friendly format such as EXT3 most of my problems were solved.
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Hi Brad,
Sorry, no progress yet. Still considering different options from basic network attached usb server, to full, stand alone server with onboard music storage, SOTM usb card, etc. First thing is to finish rgetting my music library consolidated and working with the mac minis. Then I can have music while I ponder and play with the various boards, distros, etc.
-- Jim
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Tom,
Often these SBCs have mini PCI slots for adding ethernet and sometimes even firewire interfaces. I use one of the Alix boxes configured with Monowall as the firewall in our community's shared network and it has been running for probably 4 years now without a hitch.
They do make nice, basic music servers, but also have their limitations. They are generally limited in memory and processing power, which although fine for straight, native rate playback of music files, can not do things like EQ, SRC, etc. so you have to have a dac that can accept up to the same maximum sample rate of the highest resolution file you have -- though they will do 24/192 no problem...
-- Jim
jim,
mpd has supported raw pcm streaming from one mpd server to another for quite some time now. this will let you have one powerful machine (in the basement?) for SRC, EQ and file storage and stream PCM audio to the small ALIX in the listening room.
it's not something i've personally tested but the details are in mpd.conf. i don't need EQ and my ayre QB-9 handles 24/192.
p.s. i'm glad to hear you like the alix. i've been using it as a music server since 2007 when i got the idea after staring at my pc engines m0n0wall firewall and realizing it would make a perfect, dead quiet music player.
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Hi Nick,
Thanks, and yes, it was you and your thread on audiocircle that got me and countless others on the road to using alix boards as music servers. You even helped me out by flashing my original CF card.
Anyway, I should soon have at least 2 or maybe 3 of these going in my house, and certainly nowadays there are far more, and generally better quality 24/192 capable usb dacs to choose from, so that does make it a bit easier.
I'm also exploring using the beagle bone black board as a streamer, and maybe using the HDMI output of the music data stream. At this point I have no idea how well it will work or how good it will sound, but these things are so cheap now, I figure it's an easy enough experiment to do.
An awful lot of us out here owe you a big thanks for your leadership on this project.
Thanks,
Jim
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i'm glad to hear you like the alix. i've been using it as a music server since 2007 when i got the idea after staring at my pc engines m0n0wall firewall and realizing it would make a perfect, dead quiet music player.
Nick,
As Jim mentioned you were the inspiration for many of us to go the ALIX/Voyage Linux MPD route. At first I was a little intimidated but I took things one step at a time and eventually got everything sorted. My NFS server has morphed a few times. I was very interested in keeping my power consumption as low as possible. So, the first computer was a MiniITX (Intel Atom) box running Debian Linux. That dropped my power consumption from over 100+ watts on the desktop to 20 watts on the MiniITX. Then I got the idea to try running the NFS server on a Raspberry Pi. At the time there werent very many OS options available so I installed Rasbian which is a Debian distribution for the Pi. The Raspberry Pi, a portable USB drive and a powered hub only pull about 5-6 watts. As time went on more operating systems were optimized for the Raspberry Pi. One that got my attention was Arch Linux. The Arch philosophy rang a bell with me. "Arch Linux defines simplicity as without unnecessary additions, modifications, or complications, and provides a lightweight UNIX-like base structure that allows an individual user to shape the system according to their own needs. In short: an elegant, minimalist approach." And the following Da Vinci quote sold me. "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
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How's the USB stability on Arch with Raspberry Pi? I had a heck of a time with Squeezeplug (which is Raspian) at first until I ran an experimental kernel which seems to have fixed the crashes. My uptime is now weeks.
John
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How's the USB stability on Arch with Raspberry Pi? I had a heck of a time with Squeezeplug (which is Raspian) at first until I ran an experimental kernel which seems to have fixed the crashes. My uptime is now weeks.
John
Solid as a rock so far with Arch. Same with Rasbian. Keep in mind I don't use my USB DAC on the Raspberry Pi. My ALIX computer does that duty. Getting a USB DAC to run on the Raspberry Pi has been a nightmare for me. I've tried most of the tricks online and I'm still struggling. That project has been shelved for now.
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How's the USB stability on Arch with Raspberry Pi? I had a heck of a time with Squeezeplug (which is Raspian) at first until I ran an experimental kernel which seems to have fixed the crashes. My uptime is now weeks.
John
Solid as a rock so far with Arch. Same with Rasbian. Keep in mind I don't use my USB DAC on the Raspberry Pi. My ALIX computer does that duty. Getting a USB DAC to run on the Raspberry Pi has been a nightmare for me. I've tried most of the tricks online and I'm still struggling. That project has been shelved for now.
I had the same problem but found an experimental kernel. Since I installed it my system hasn't crashed once. I also used a wireless dongle based on the RT2800 chip that I think was problematic.
Towards the bottom of my project page are the 3 commands for the git core kernel. I've got RPi running rock solid now. I also wrote a file to check the squeezelite process every 5 minutes and made a cron to restart it if it wasn't running.
http://www.hagensieker.com/styled-9/index.html (http://www.hagensieker.com/styled-9/index.html)
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Oddly enough the [rpi-update] worked by itself. I must have been using an older version of firmware on the SD card. I'm using a VA Labs DAC on the Pi running pianobar for Pandora in my shop. Raspberry Pi > VA Labs DAC > Bottlehead Quickie > Jerry's 15 Watt x 2 Class D Audio Amplifier > Vintage Warfdales. The clicks and pops are gone for now after the upgrade. If I have any other problems in the future I'll try running the experimental firmware. I think I've made a step in the right direction. Thanks.
BTW this PI is running AdaFruit's Raspberry Pi Educational Distro - Occidentalis v0.2. Its basically Rasbian "Weezy" with some extra goodies built in.
http://learn.adafruit.com/pi-wifi-radio (http://learn.adafruit.com/pi-wifi-radio)
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Hello all,
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but a question from a linux newbie here. I'd like to set up a linux box for a music server as well as to store other files (pictures, backup from home office computer), and wondered if there's a linux distribution that might be good for that sort of duty?
thanks,
david
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Vortexbox is free. Vortexbox.org...John
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As stated above I use Voyage MPD http://linux.voyage.hk/voyage-mpd (http://linux.voyage.hk/voyage-mpd)
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Has anyone had any experience running these music servers as VM's as part of a Linux server?
Any issues or considerations? Better to have a dedicated machine?