Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: RayP on June 20, 2011, 12:37:48 AM
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If you have been reading the thread about the Bottleneck Russian line stage competition, you will see that we started a discussion about a possible speaker competition for next year. We are looking to use a relatively inexpensive 4" full-range driver that will go well with a bunch of cabinet styles. The idea is that we all use the same driver but with different box styles (or no box if appropriate).
Steve will pick the driver that we use, but I think it would be a good idea to get some comments and suggestions for him to consider in making his decision.
David mentioned his concern:
"I was thinking about the choice of speaker for next year's competition... I don't recall the technical reason for it, but there are drivers that work well in horns and drivers that work in bass reflex type of enclosures. I wonder if there is a driver that will work in either type of enclosure. Otherwise we may end up with a bunch of very similar cabinets. "
At the meeting, Tony suggested that a 3" driver might be better.
My first suggestion is that when the speaker model is announced, those who plan to enter should buy their set of speakers straight away so that we are all using the same model, version, batch or whatever.
My second suggestion is that entrants should build their cabinets asap so that the speakers have time to 'burn in', or whatever the technical term is for speakers.
Comments and suggestions would be appreciated.
ray
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Ray,
Picking a driver wll necessarily restrict the range of possible design types as the Qts of the driver rally is what determines what kind of cabinet is reasonable. Results outside those parameters could result in either bad sound or in worst case, even a damaged driver.
One alternative approach may be to specify one or more parametrs such as baffle width, olume of cabinet, etc, and then specify a maximum price and say that you can use any 3" or 4" driver you want that will work within those parameters. This puts a bit more challenge in it as one would have to conceptualize the design and then pick an appropriate driver and live with it, or one could pick a driver and then designa and tune a cabinet to it.
I only say this as this would leave a lotof room for individual creativity.
Of course open baffle designs won't work with a specified volume parameter, but one could also specify a maximum baffle area for an OB type.
Of course, this is your competition and I have no real say in how you want to do things, but the approach I've outlined I think should give the designer/builder a lot more room for experimentation with ifferent approaches.
Just my two cents.
-- Jim
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Thanks for the interesting reply.
Perhaps another way to do it would be to specify a price maximum per driver eg under $40 or $50 as on a certain date. We know prices change and there are occasional sale prices.
We had already discussed whether there should be an overall cost limit per speaker and had decided just to specify the driver cost, not the box cost.
ray
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Could pick 2 or three drivers and require an entry using each driver or have a hand full of drivers and allow entrants to select from a specified list.
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how about pick a box size in terms of internal volume. Maybe equivalent to one of the Parts Express enclosures, for those who don't want to build from scratch. I bet we can include open baffle. Topic for discussion.
Load it as you like.
Rather then pick a driver, set a Dollar limit for driver(s) and crossover parts. Lets skip terminals, wire and such. Lets not go too low, as I would like to have a usable set of speakers at the end, rather then just an entry. Topic for discussion.
What do you think?...John
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How about when we meet at Fritz's place in October, we have a discussion and make a decision then. In the lead up to the meet, it would help if those who are interested could start to discuss and recommend drivers (along with specs and prices) so that a decision can be made on how we are going to do this.
ray
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On one hand, I like the enclosure idea. Everyone buy the same PE enclosure (.25, .38, .75, whatever) and then load it with drivers. Maybe put the limit at $250. The competition would then be on choosing drivers, crossover points, components.
On the other hand, choosing a single driver means that the competition would be about building an enclosure. However, we could still allow people to augment the designs with other drivers. For example, even though the Jordan speakers I have are "full range", they sound better with the Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeters. This way, we could still have a range of different approaches to using the same driver.
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If you have been reading the thread about the Bottleneck Russian line stage competition, you will see that we started a discussion about a possible speaker competition for next year. We are looking to use a relatively inexpensive 4" full-range driver that will go well with a bunch of cabinet styles. The idea is that we all use the same driver but with different box styles (or no box if appropriate).
Steve will pick the driver that we use, but I think it would be a good idea to get some comments and suggestions for him to consider in making his decision.
David mentioned his concern:
"I was thinking about the choice of speaker for next year's competition... I don't recall the technical reason for it, but there are drivers that work well in horns and drivers that work in bass reflex type of enclosures. I wonder if there is a driver that will work in either type of enclosure. Otherwise we may end up with a bunch of very similar cabinets. "
At the meeting, Tony suggested that a 3" driver might be better.
My first suggestion is that when the speaker model is announced, those who plan to enter should buy their set of speakers straight away so that we are all using the same model, version, batch or whatever.
My second suggestion is that entrants should build their cabinets asap so that the speakers have time to 'burn in', or whatever the technical term is for speakers.
Comments and suggestions would be appreciated.
Ray
I only just saw this thread! You guys have been busy!
I like the idea of a not to exceed price for the driver as it will give a lot of options. The driver should be a current model and widely available. On the other hand i do not agree with restricting the cabinet to a PE box as this is too restrictive. Speaker performance is hugely influenced by cabinet design. If we are going to go with a fullrange driver then most of the crossover work is eliminated right away. This leaves cabinet design as the biggest factor. If we take that away, then the only differences will be drivers and damping! Lets agree on a price per driver and go from there. i would be comfortable with $150 for the drivers. The cabinets don`t have to be pretty and can be built out of any materials you like.
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Freedom of driver and enclosure choice. I like the idea, it is getting on Independence day.
I was not keen on a common driver. On the other hand, I have pretty much forgotten everything I never knew about speaker building to begin with.
Maybe ask Steve for a few recommendations, Rather than to chose just one driver. I think that would limit enclosure possibility's. How about a few PE or Madisound, offerings just to get the ball rolling...John
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I like the idea of just a cost limit for the drivers and crossovers ( if used). Let the cabinet be anything the designer wishes.
Deb
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Sorry for the off-topic post, but my daughter just cracked me up...
She asked, "Why does that person have a Britney Spears icon?"
I replied, "Look what it says underneath the picture."
Then she asked, "What does he really look like?"
So, I reminded her that John was at the last Bottleneck meet. She then replied, "Oh... he's not THAT ugly."
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. . .
I replied, "Look what it says underneath the picture." . . .
I don't have children so I didn't know that it was Britney Spears. Cute, but very young.
And I agree without seeing him, John can't be THAT ugly.
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Gee, thanks guys.
Might be time for a change...John
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I`ve been giving this some thought and have come up with this.
1/ Everyone has to use a currently in production 4" or smaller fullrange driver. This gives a chance to those who have little experience designing crossovers.
3/ Supertweeters / tweeters can be added using crossovers.
4/ A dollar amount will be established for purchasing drivers, including tweeters and crossover components.
5/ Enclosures are up to the designers and any materials may be used. Premade boxes may be bought and used. Otherwise designers must build their own designs.
6/ Terminals,stuffing, damping materials, feet etc will not be included in the fixed dollar amount.
i want to encourage as many novices as possible to take part in this competition. This is why we should look carefully at the dollar amount. To keep it interesting we should make it low enough that if one decides to go with a multi driver configuration, they will have to buy a lower quality set of drivers compared to going with the single driver setup.
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This sounds reasonable. One point to ponder might be positioning of the speakers when they are auditioned. Some may do better well out from a wall, but a BIB would benefit from a close to wall position (as I understand it). I suggest each builder can nominate where their speakers should be positioned.
I think we need a decision about the $$ limit fairly soon since I read that TB neo prices have jumped dramatically. I am fine with $150 but $100 will work as well for me. Incidently, I think we should have shipping not included in the price.
I also think we will need to pick a date to set the components cost. I suggest the date in October when we meet at Fritz's place so we can get an idea of how many would plan to enter. This would also encourage us to build our entries well in advance so that they get a chance to break in well before the competition date. All entrants would have three months from now to decide what driver they want to use.
Naturally, we will probably need to have prizes for best looking and ugliest. I suspect I will be favourite for the latter already.
John of course will bring the Britney model. I had wondered who that girl was, now I know. My daughter played one of her songs for me a few years ago and I thought she sounded a bit like how a balloon sounds when you let the air out quickly. But that was only one song, of course.
ray
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...I thought she sounded a bit like how a balloon sounds when you let the air out quickly.
She currently has a song on the radio that has so much auto-tune on it that it sounds like a video game. Maybe that is what she is going for.
With regard to the rules... As long as its under the price limit, can you augment the driver with a woofer instead of a tweeter? I have seen people doing this with full range drivers and was curious how it sounds.
And I vote for $150 cost limit. This should give enough flexibility for a wide variety of designs while keeping out of the really exotic territory and also not having to bottom feed too much if someone decides to go with a multiple driver design.
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I have no problem with the woofer idea as long as a fullrange driver is kept in the mix. I vote for $175.00 as i`ve been looking at the fullrange prices and they have increased a lot due to the shortage of neo magnets.
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Why not a nice round $200. This will allow for all but the most exotic full range drivers, but still leave room for BSC filters, etc.
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Why not a nice round $200. This will allow for all but the most exotic full range drivers, but still leave room for BSC filters, etc.
That's good with me. We should see a nice wide selection of drivers with that limit.
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I'm a little puzzled by what is being proposed with the full range driver augmented by a separate woofer and or tweeter which to my mind turns into a three way. There's nothing wrong with that of course. I do this at home with the xovers at 80 hz and 7 khz. However, I would prefer something simpler such as just a full rangers though I have something in mind that is a 3 way.
In our past two competitions, we have had constrictions (6V6, russian tube) as well as $$ limit and container that make the design process more challenging. So far I am only seeing the $$ limit as the constriction.
Two possible constrictions are to nominate the power rating of the amp to be used and which room we will hold the competition. Let's say it's Steve's room. I suspect you would need more amplifier power in it than Fritz's room. John's 45 amp would be out of the question for the inefficient entries, even the 6V6 would probably be marginal. So let's start thinking about the room and amp we will use before we go too much further.
Other ideas for constrictions would be welcome and something for us to think about.
ray
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Not that there's more than the slimmest chance I'll be able to make it, but an idea would be to allow either a tweeter or a woofer but not both. A fullranger by itself is pretty constrained to the 6"-8" range if it is to have a balanced spectrum, and thousands of designs have been developed and are out there on the web. But making the choice between HF and LF augmentation is a more interesting design challenge which has not been much explored.
... Except of course for the standard 8"-12" woofer with 1" tweeter which s the conventional-wisdom standard in spite of the midrange compromises. Should there be a constraint on the crossover frequency to keep it to augmentation rather than an ordinary 2-way?
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Ray,
I think David is proposing a small fullrange driver with a bass driver to supplement the low ranges. We could restrict the cabinetry to be an original design and not a copy of someone else`s design. That would present somewhat more of a challenge to all the builders. There are all sorts of online programs to help with box design. i think that $200.00 and requiring an original design would be a sufficient competition. i suspect that a good fullrange unit in a well designed box with correct damping will defeat a 2 driver version due to driver quality, but we`ll see!
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I like Paul's idea of a max of one crossover and restricted xover ranges. I suppose we could just say the xover should not be in the 300 to 5000 range or whatever range we come up with.
I also like Steve's suggestion of an original design but I doubt that any of us could come up with a totally new design. Perhaps we could redefine the suggestion to 'a design that does not have a web site with plans that you just copy'. You could take the concept but use different speakers. For example, you could take the MLK open baffle on a H frame and use a different woofer and full ranger from what MLK has already used.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project08/Project08.html (http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project08/Project08.html)
ray
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Ray just posted before me, but we were thinking along the same lines...
I was proposing either an added tweeter or woofer, but not both. This would allow for something similar to the Jim Griffin Jordan/Aurum Cantus design or the Martin King Jordan/Goldwood design. That said, I think that we should require entries to be an original design. I don't think a Fostex speaker with Fountek tweeter is the same design as the Jordan/Aurum Cantus.
I think requiring folks to build their own enclosure might put some people out of the competition so I think we should allow people to purchase pre-assembled cabinets.
So, how about this:
- full range driver 4" or smaller
- can be augmented on the high end or low end, but not both
- must be an original design
- pre-built enclosures are ok
- total cost of drivers, crossover components, damping material, input jacks must be less than $200
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Are we agreed on this yet? Does anyone else have any more input?
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I'm fine with it and I know what I will attempt to build.
ray
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I'm fine with it and I know what I will attempt to build.
ray
Me too. I`m going with something simple but hopefully good sounding. i just ordered the drivers!
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I think we are close enough... I'm not going to do anything that would be different from any of the guidelines that have been proposed. Don't really know what I will build yet. Right now, I'm building a 1960's Marshall 4x12 cabinet replica for a friend.
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Did we stipulate a meet date? Hopefully some time in September or later. Most of these fullrange drivers do sound better with some time on them. If you like we can do the meet at my place.
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Are you suggesting September for the competition or for a meeting to finalize the rules? I'm hoping to learn about box/baffle design, crossovers, etc. I'm not sure how much I will really learn in such a short time.
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I had talked to Fritz about hosting in October. We'll try to set a date.
I think the actual competition should be next year, it will be a while before I can actually build my design and I think I will have to try a few iterations.
ray
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We had further discussion at the meet on Saturday and I think we came up with this:
- primary speaker to be full range. What constitutes a full range speaker? Like porn, we will know it when we see it.
- can be augmented on the high end or low end, but not both - the key here is augmented, crossovers in the 500 - 2.5k range will not be acceptable
- we will have two divisions for the full range speaker < 5 inches and >= 5 inches
- must be an original design but you can take an existing design and modify it with different speakers
- pre-built enclosures are ok
- total cost of drivers, crossover components, damping material, input jacks must be less than $200
- enclosures are not included in the $200
- competition to be held sometime in April but may be pushed back
- competition to be held at Steve's place in Stirling, VA but if somebody has a nice big room in the Baltimore area and would be willing to host, we would be grateful
- each entrant gets to pick one under 3 minute piece of music to be part of the music selection (send to me when you know what it is)
- probably will use David's 817 amp which should be enough for those 83db drivers
Let me know if I missed anything or got something wrong.
ray
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Well my speakers are finally playing. Just a reminder that if you haven't started yet, it's probably time to get out the cutting implements. Building always takes longer than you think.
ray
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I have a gretsch guitar and a fender amp that have been consuming my time lately. I need to get those finished so I can start on my speakers.
Question with regard to the rules... does there have to be a single primary driver or can there be multiples? In other words, can I build a bipole or an array (or a bipole arrays)?
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I'm not opposed to arrays, particularly if they are the full rangers. And I wouldn't mind if you had multiple woofers at the bottom end or multiple tweeters at the top end if they were the augmenting speakers. As long as the speaker finishes up to be predominantly full range.
These would be interesting even though they are on sale. http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-fullrange/aurasound-ns525-255-8a-5.25-paper-cone-8-ohm/ (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-fullrange/aurasound-ns525-255-8a-5.25-paper-cone-8-ohm/)
It's tough to decide what speakers to use and what design to build. There's just so much stuff out there. At least I've got mine done so I can think of something else now.
I've been thinking about the judging process and I don't think we can hide the speakers this time and I suspect some speakers will sound best in different positions from others. I think we just make a modification to the scoring process so that everybody can score the speakers but you can't score your own speaker. I think that would be fair.
ray
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with regard to the judging process... we might be able to hide them, but it would require a more binary type of process and simple criteria. Something like the following:
Put speakers A and B in position behind a screen: Play music and people choose which one they want to hear again.
Put speakers C and D...
Put speakers E and F...
Then put the winner of round 1 against the winner or round 2 and repeat. The hard part would be getting the levels the same and the positioning right before the judging begins.
We might want to let the losers compete against eachother as well. Then let the "winner of the losers" compete against the "winner of the winners" for the finale.
Probably needs a little more work to implement, but something along those lines could work.
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Unfortunately i will be unable to host the speaker meet due to a tree falling on the house during the christmas holidays. We have substantial damage which the insurance company is looking after, but the room we usually use will be full of kitchen supplies as we have to empty one end of the house. Hopefully we can find a new venue https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=e6330b38b3&view=att&th=13485c97bf92af52&attid=0.2&disp=thd&zw
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I'm sorry to hear those Paramounts with MQ Iron and Teflon capacitors were completely destroyed by the tree. As were your Klipschorns, and AudioNote DAC. Hard to believe there is nothing left. Oh well, I'm sure your insurance will pay to have them replaced. :-)
Ray said something about the library in Elkton being available again. That is more central for most people, so perhaps that would work. If not, I will check with my social coordinator and see about hosting in VA again.
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Good lord, Steve. That was not what I was expecting when I checked in. Since my house is surrounded by trees, I can only sympathize. Hopefully nobody was hurt which is the main thing in these situations.
How about in a week's time, we start a discussion about the date for the competition. I should be able to reserve the library room and for me at least, it will be a much shorter drive. And when you see my speakers, you will understand why a local trip for me will be much better.
For those of you who don't know where the library is, here is the address:
301 Newark Avenue, Elkton, MD 21921
So if any of you are thinking of entering, how about you respond so we can get an idea of how many entries we will have. And remember, if you enter, you get to pick a piece of music that we will use to audition the entries.
ray
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Wow, sorry to hear that Steve, Merry Christmas.
I plan to have an entry, although my plan is to use some drivers from the pile in the basement. So we'll see.
I would love to go back to the Library. Not only is it our roots but it is a much easier drive for me...John
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I will check out the following dates in the library (all Saturdays).
April 21
April 28
May 5
If you are going to enter and one of these dates does not work for you, let me know asap.
ray
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May 5th is Hornfest...John
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i would like to attend with an entry and cinco de mayo sounds like a good date. i'll try to pick out some latin rhythms
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I think Hornfest is down in South Carolina which would rule out May 5.
So that leaves April 21 & 28.
ray
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I checked back with the library and they only have the large room available, not the smaller one where we used to meet. So does anyone want to volunteer?
ray
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What's wrong with the large room? You should see the size of my speakers. :-)
I will check with the social coordinator of the family... but it would probably be nicer for our more northern members to goto MD. We should all chip in and buy some guy in Baltimore a Quickie so we have a central place to meet. Of course, if you know anything about Baltimore people used to buy quickies on the block all the time.
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Ok I will try to get the larger room. It used to have an air-conditioning sound problem but since they have done some sort of remodeling, I will check it out to see if the problem still exists.
So your speakers are large. So are mine. Perhaps you should check out this link from the British series Coupling. It gets interesting about 1:30.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7JP1XDmEcY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7JP1XDmEcY)
If you've never watched this show, it was the funniest and probably the most clever series I've ever seen.
ray
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Actually, I was joking. Mine are practically satellites at the moment. But I'm thinking of something else.
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I've reserved the large meeting room at the Elkton Library for Saturday May 12 from 12:30 - 4:30. Unfortunately somebody else has reserved for the earlier part of the day but I think we can get it done in four hours. The April Saturdays were no longer available.
So get the chain saws fired up to create those craftsman creations.
ray
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Just a gentle reminder to finish those speakers. While you are at it, start thinking about the piece of music you would like to have included in the selection of music we will use to judge the speakers.
ray
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One month to go. I'm hoping that my speakers are not the sole entry.
ray
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I have an entry, but I must admit I haven't had time lately to work on them.
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Maybe you could get together with Steve and Tony and work on them. Don't worry about making them look good. There will definitely be no competition from me in that area.
ray
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I too will have an entry, although my attempt to try something a little different did not meet with success. So I
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One month to go. I'm hoping that my speakers are not the sole entry.
ray
Not to worry. I am hoping to have two sets ready by then. May not be the best finished but hopefully will sound decent. Maybe we can rideshare on the way up? My speakers are not too large this time.
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Well it looks like we will have a real competition.
Could those with entries send me their piece of music to be part of the test CD. My gmail account is rperry13.
As I remember, David was bringing his amp. Can someone volunteer to bring a CD player and cables.
ray
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I can bring a CD player...John
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With one week to go until the competition, I think it is time to get back to the subject of judging the entries. For those familiar with the Elkton Library, there are two meeting rooms, a larger and smaller. Previously we have met in the smaller room, but I am not sure we will be able to get in there. We may have to make do with the larger room.
Which ever room, it probably will be difficult to hide the entries unless we have some sort of curtain.
Any ideas or comments?
By the way, remember that the room only becomes available at 12:30. I hope we can get going by 1pm or thereabouts. My speakers have to be assembled on site but 30 minutes should be enough.
By the way, all are welcome. It should be interesting to see and hear what we have come up with.
ray
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i cobbled something to bring. i'm curious, you want a 2min mailed attachment of music? in flac format, or something else? thanks, don
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Cobbled together! It's probably better made than anything I could ever hope to build.
For the 6V6 competition, I 'cobbled together' a CD of various three minute tracks of different music genres, blues, classical etc which we played for each amp. David did the same last year for the Russian line stage.
We decided that this year, anybody who entered the competition could submit a track and it would be part of the test CD. So you can send me something in the 2-3 minute range. Wav or Flac would be fine.
I will try to include some test tones 60hz, 50hz, 40hz, 30hz, 20hz after the music tracks just to see how low our speakers can reach.
ray
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My work has been getting in the way of my hobby lately and I haven't had the time to finish my project. I will bring something, but I'm not expecting much.
With regard to the actually competition, I'm thinking we need the following:
- Amp - David (Audioromy 813, ~30WPC)
- Speaker Stands - David (mine are 30" tall)
- Speaker Wire - David (I have plain old cable. If someone wants to bring something more exotic feel free)
- Cd Player - Jon
- RCA Cables
- Power Strip
- Screen to hide the entries (if possible)
- Snacks (are we allowed?)
Am I missing something?
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Food is not allowed.
I can bring a power strip.
ray
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If you have tried to send me a track for the test disk, it hasn't arrived.
I'm currently putting the test disk together so get it to me asap if you can.
A friend came round yesterday and saw my speakers. He laughed out loud.
ray
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Hi Ray,
I tried to send you a flac of Eva Cassidy, Wayfaring Stranger. at 4:27 it is a 26mg file and I guess too large to send.
Does anyone know how I could edit it to say the last 2 minutes? Or better yet just send it to Ray...John
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It Looks like Gmail has a limit of 25 mb.
I will bring my laptop with a CD burner and I could read it at the library, add it to the play list and then burn the disk. I'll get to the library about noon.
ray
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I've just tried Audacity to increase the volume slightly on a couple of classical music tracks. It seems to be effective. You can also shorten the length of a track.
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/ (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/)
For those who don't want to know which speaker they are listening to, I will bring some unused masks that you can place over your eyes during the auditions. They are the kind you get on overseas flights.
ray
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is the library address, 301 Newark Avenue, Elkton ?
thanks, don
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Hi Don,
Yes, that's it. The easiest way for most people to get there is to get off I-95 at exit 109 and take Route 279. Once you get to Elkton, You go past a couple of schools on the left hand side and then you come to the library. There is usually room in the parking lot.
The meeting rooms are directly to the right as you enter the library. I'm not sure if we will be in the larger or smaller room.
There are not too many food places near the library. The usual fast food stuff is at the I-95 / Route 279 exit.
ray
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I've done a write up on the competition that you can find here.
http://bottlenecksaudio.blogspot.com/2012/05/full-range-speaker-competition.html (http://bottlenecksaudio.blogspot.com/2012/05/full-range-speaker-competition.html)
It was really interesting listening to all of these speakers and Steve's MLTLs were the emphatic winners.
Our next meet will be in the second half of October, probably at Steve's place in Sterling, VA.
ray
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Nice writeup Ray. I thought this was a good meet. I really wish I had an extra month to finish up my design. It would have been interesting to have an entry with a helper woofer. I think I will go ahead and finish them for October, just to see what people think. Since Steve will have his speakers around we can compare them.
Not that it matters, but the chip amp I brought was a BrianGT design from chipamp.com.
See you in October!