Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tickwomp on January 18, 2012, 01:29:12 PM
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Anyone have first hand experience with boutique fuses? I'm running out of things to upgrade....
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Well...they are on sale on partsconnextion. I bought a couple. one went in the crack. I'm not sure I got much improvement. I have them in all my Ayre and Linn gear and I did notice a slight, (perhaps just hopefull...perhaps just the full moon) increased openess. At $21 bucks perhaps worth a try if you have already invested in boutique power cords and other areas of your power section...?
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I bought some when they were on sale too, I did notice slight improvements as well. Tighter bass (slightly) is what I noticed.
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I think that there would be more to offer upgrading something like the RCA jacks used in gear. One thing that troubles me is the amount of upgrading doesn't ever touch the unnoticed poor quality pc boards. And while I'm at it, the fuse can only be as good as the holder it sits in, right?
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I don't have any experience to share about fuses, but the PC boards in our kits are only used in non critical parts of the circuit. That is to say, if you study the circuit you will find that the signal path never goes through a PCB trace.
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Anyone have first hand experience with boutique fuses? I'm running out of things to upgrade....
Not first hand experience...... but philosophically speaking, I would NEVER spend money on a boutique fuse. I would MUCH rather put the money towards a new amp, more music, or key alcohol-related audio tweaks.
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I would MUCH rather put the money towards key alcohol-related audio tweaks.
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Good point!!
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. . . key alcohol-related audio tweaks.
Ok it literally had me (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg7%2FGrainger49%2FFor%2520Posts%2520Private%2FROLF.gif%3Ft%3D1327008134&hash=8dbbb415cb573a1c1981e5f240dc580d958b6978)
I agree! I prefer Bourbon.
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Plenty of alcohol. One of the best tweaks around.
Roger
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Nothing to lose but money... I think I'll give 'em a try.
Someone mentioned jacks, and I've already done that... Installed Audionote Silver in both the Foreplay and Paramounts. My Audionote DAC came with some pretty sweet jacks as well (among some other sweet upgrades). Also installed Better Cardas Binding Posts in the Paramounts too.
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Anyone have first hand experience with boutique fuses? I'm running out of things to upgrade....
Quite a coincidence! - I just ordered 4 Hi-Fi Tuning fuses for my amp from Ultra Systems. I put one in my Transporter DAC some time ago. Its hard to remember how the sound changed, but I do remember it being significant. Its kind of a no brainer. The fuses last forever. You can carry them over to new equipment if you upgrade. The price has come up a bit. I remember paying about $29 for the silver fuse. They can go as high as $50 now. Ultra Systems has a $5 off now on all fuses.
Take a quick browse for reviews on the Hi-Fi Tuning fuse. I bet you buy one today!
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Hi Ken,
Sorry for the late input, but I've tried a few of these boutique fuses and didn't get much thrill from them. Ok, maybe better ins some ways but altered the sonics somewhat too. In general I think the ceramic body standard fuses are a bit cleaner than the glass body types, and a ceramic fuse with a band of antii-vibration magic on it and the caps treated with the Jena Labs contact enhancer did far more than the boutique fuses... and you can do a lot of fuses and other things for the money for one bottle of AVM and the contact enhancer from Jena Labs.
BTW, the contact enhancer is non-conductive and is the only thing I use anymore (except deox it for cleaning) and works great on tube pins with no danger of shorting out, dripping inside, etc. In fact, a drop in the end of a usb cable connector had a very nice effect -- do that with any other conductive contact enhancer and you can pretty much forget about using that cable again.
So, ceeramic fuse, AVM and JL contact enhancer and it's about as good as it gets, and no worries shorting thing out.
HTH,
Jim
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Audio improvements can really seem "out there" sometimes. IMHO a fuse is a fuse and if you are hearing a difference then something else has changed. There seems to be no degree to which the audiophile will invent new ways to charge way to much for the simplest of connections.
John
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Not about fused, but an interesting read nonetheless: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/lessloss4/blackbody.html
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Not about fused, but an interesting read nonetheless: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/lessloss4/blackbody.html
Just finished reading it - I think I blew a fuse in my head! First off - way too expensive (with or without knowing what is in the box - it better be a kilo of pure silver behind that glass) to experiment with. I would say that if they were to charge say $25/each it may be worth a try - so that puts it in a category that ONLY the super mega bux audiophile would even go there. That in itself is very annoying. In the same league of the $10K to $25K component. I will say though, that the reported sound improvements are generically similar to those of other tweaks I have experimented with (fuses, cables, power cords, caps). None of them cost $1K a pop! It makes the $40 fuse look like a bargin.
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Ken,
Thanks for the link -- interesting read indeed. I think Srajan does a great thihg by putting things into perspective when he points out that room acoustics and resonance control are far higher up the ladder in terms of priority.
Also very interesting to note is his reaction to some of the issues around computers, wireless, and other EM interferences, and even into the ultrasonic level... I have always had a really pronounced and bad reaction to digital amps -- tripath in particular, but also ICE modules, etc. It only takes 20 minutes of listening, even very softly, and my ears are ringing like nobody's business and tend to stay that way for a day or two afterwards. I've done this test several times in different places and different amps, and the result is always the same. Now logically I know I can't "hear" those switching frequencies -- hundereds of khz and into the mhz in some cases but they have this undeniable effect on me. DACs, computers, no, but amps, definitely yes.
If nothing else they seem to be onto something plausible, even to my scientifically oriented mindset and training.
No, I'm not buying any of these goodies :-).
-- Jim
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I worked in the fuse manufacturing industry some time ago and knowing the effort required to ensure fuses worked as designed (protection) I am always skeptical about these boutique fuses.
Using different alloys will definitely make some difference on the sound quality. But the design of the fuse comes down to the resistance of the fuse vs the current it sees and the ability for the element alloy to melt fast enough to do its job. There is a limit to the alloys available to do this.
My question is simple:
Do the fuses actually protect the device as intended or even specified by the likes of UL. I have not seen a single boutique fuse with a UL or CSA or other listing number to show it has even been tested. I wrote to one of the dealers in this regard as well as speaking direct to another and never got an answer. If this is the case and they are not listed then we would be just as well protected jumping the fuses out of the picture or soldering a fuse wire across the terminals.
I think I will pass on these devices and put more effort into other things as suggested.
Cheers
Mike
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But the design of the fuse comes down to the resistance of the fuse vs the current it sees and the ability for the element alloy to melt fast enough to do its job. There is a limit to the alloys available to do this.
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I think I will pass on these devices and put more effort into other things as suggested.
Great post, Mike.
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yeah that makes me rethink the boutique fuses also.. sound quality is VERY important, however reliable protection is right up there also....I am not sure they would respond (blow) with the same speed..
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thought I might clarify my statement about my original post here. I was not referring to BH products when I mentioned 'cheap circuit boards'. Actually, I was thinking about a modification of a product that I am currently working on. There will certainly be diminishing returns to the final results when cheap products are used in the design to begin with. That is why I might question a mere fuse, or any other single item in a chain of lesser quality. Fortunately, with products like BH, you have a better chance to hear the effect of upgrades in the first place.
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The OP asks, "Anyone have first hand experience with boutique fuses?" It seems the answer is most of us have no experience with them and probably will never have any experience with them. We got somewhat sidetracked.
I think I can understand some of the logic surrounding designer fuses. The fuse, by design, is the lowest gauge wire on the primary side of a circuit. Increasing wire size in the power supply has often made improvements in sound. Larger SS high powered amps often have copper bus for the conductors.
In the case of the fuse increasing the wire size is the wrong thing to do. But I'll bet that isn't what these designer fuses are. I'll bet they start life as a run of the mill fuse and the contacts are upgraded. "Upgrading" the fusible element would be just foolhardy.
Ok, cheap mother that I am I'm not going to spend $20 for a fuse. I'd rather buy a capacitor, or put $20 toward a capacitor. All these things are personal preference.
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Ok, cheap mother that I am I'm not going to spend $20 for a fuse. I'd rather buy a capacitor, or put $20 toward a capacitor. All these things are personal preference.
I appreciate Grainger's honesty! This "tweaking" arena brings out our personal biases. To move forward in this hobby we have to be honest, and occasionally flexible. I am also a cheap MF (emphasis mine). I was also a "stubborn" SS guy for years because I was too cheap/scared to look at the expense of trying tubes. I thank Bottlehead for supplying the cure. IMO all of the "real" audiophiles are. Its takes a ton more work to squeeze great sound from limited bucks! Any idiot can stroll down to their local audio shop, listen for 15min to some big bucks gear, supply the credit card, and have it set up in your living room.
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I have tried the pretty little fuses, but in my opinion, they don't provide much bang fo the buck. I suspect that re-making the AC contact with the new fuse does as much good as the fuse itself.
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I also have put boutique fu$es in my Paramounts and heard no improvement.
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Installed the "el supremo" fuses last night. Definetely worth the $. Biggest difference was in the DAC followed by the Preamp.
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How much were the "El Supremo" and what differences did you hear?
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How much were the "El Supremo" and what differences did you hear?
$55 per fuse.... I ponied up for 4.
I'm very pleased with the improvement. Much more tonight than last night, and tonight I reoriented them correctly (i had them in backwards). More clarity everywhere, but percussion significantly better. THe DAC made the most difference (and not suble) followed closely by the Foreplay. The Paramounts were audible, but more subtle.
The difference is was about the same as replacing the standard crappy IC that comes OEM with stuff with a very good one. Knowing what I know now, I would have happily paid more to refuse the DAC and pre...
Tick
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I am not one to question these things. I put ArmorAll on my CDs and they sounded better. I tried green paint on the edges and the indentation near the center. It made a slight improvement for the better but wasn't worth the bother to me. (I play so few CDs now with the Eros)
Over on Audio Karma I got in line to try some chips and dots to tune your system. You placed the chip on your CD player to improve the sound. A number of tweaks from the same company were circulating and I got nothing from either the chip or dot.
All that said I wonder about orientation of a fuse. I do not doubt you heard a difference. But it still bothers me. The fuse is in the AC leg. So the direction of the current reverses every 1/120 of a second (a full cycle is 1/60 of a second). So if you have it right, 1/120 of a second the orientation is wrong.
This is what I get for trying to figure these things out. Do trust me, I use a few tweaks I have no idea why they work, but they do.
If you enjoy the sound, that is all that matters. This is not a flaming kind of site so you will find guys who question here but no one will say you are wrong.
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No offense to anyone but man-o-man, did I pick the wrong career.
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. . . If you want to give into delusion and pretend that $ automatically = better sound, then that's on you, and it's your freedom to spend your money how you want! . . .
Anyone believing that wouldn't be here to start with.
To me if Tick hears the difference and it is worth the price he should be happy. I so often see posts that say, "I can't believe my system could sound better." Followed by, "I upgraded with XX and it was better."
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I like what I hear, and I'm pleased with the purchase. YMMV, but IMO if you don't at least try them for yourselves, you're leaving some performance on the table. My system is pretty resolving and I love the way it sounds, but I know that it can and will be better.
When I get home today, I'll have a new Pi Audio BatteryBuss waiting for me. My Mach2 Mac Mini is already DC powered (directly off a 12v battery (connected to a charger)), and from all my research, adding the BatteryBuss will audible improvements. Also ordered and am waiting for a Firewire 800 cable (built with no power) to go from my music storage drive to the Mac Mini. Again, I expect additional improvement.
Everything is relative, but honestly $55 is a cheap night out. You guys get to gether and decide who the biggest cynic is amonst yourselves and I'll send him a fuse to try for Themselves. If you don't like, fine send it back to me. If you keep it, I expect you to post on the board that you have been proven wrong.
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Tim,
Rather than skid the original poster's thread further sideways, you have a PM.
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The problem with logic is usually that it draws conclusions from premises, which are often untrue in ways that we do not yet understand, or are unable to believe. Not to mention, as statisticians know but are largely unable to impart to others, proving that something is untrue is entirely different from not proving that it is true.
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The problem with logic is usually that it draws conclusions from premises, which are often untrue in ways that we do not yet understand, or are unable to believe. Not to mention, as statisticians know but are largely unable to impart to others, proving that something is untrue is entirely different from not proving that it is true.
Your rock Paul! That was very ZAMM sounding (Robert M. Persig).
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Some hear a difference and some don't. Some wants to spend the $ and some don't. So what. Let's agree to disagree.
Roger
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Paul, Nicely said.
Ken, glad to hear that your experiment worked out and you like the results. Just because mine weren't as positive as yours (not negative either) doesn't mean that your results are invalid or due to some psychological effect.
A lot of the AC power related tweaks have great variability in their effectiveness depending on your local power conditions, house wiring, other appliances in the house, etc.
-- Jim
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This hobby is as much about hanging out with the people who you find to have similar taste, hearing, lusts, etc., as it is about the gear. I think in this particular audio community there is not much point in trying to impose one's own set of boundaries upon others. That's not to say that it can't be the part of the hobby that one enjoys most. I mean, there could be a sort of audio dom and audio sub kind of relationship. I haven't really seen too much of it here, but there might be other forums where an audio top could find an audio bottom. Audio Asylum comes to mind, as it has special areas devoted to the expression of viewpoints in a passionate manner.
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Ken,
Forgot to add that I think you're going to like that battery buss! Are you also powering your music storage drive from it? Can you tell me where you got the firewire cable with the power leg removed? I can't seem to find the MBS cable anymore.
Thanks,
Jim
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This hobby is as much about hanging out with the people who you find to have similar taste, hearing, lusts, etc., as it is about the gear. I think in this particular audio community there is not much point in trying to impose one's own set of boundaries upon others. That's not to say that it can't be the part of the hobby that one enjoys most. I mean, there could be a sort of audio dom and audio sub kind of relationship. I haven't really seen too much of it here, but there might be other forums where an audio top could find an audio bottom. Audio Asylum comes to mind, as it has special areas devoted to the expression of viewpoints in a passionate manner.
You just can't help sneaking sex into conversations about audio, can you? No worries. It's always entertaining.
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Hey man, you're the one who said sex, not me. ;^)>
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Ken,
Forgot to add that I think you're going to like that battery buss! Are you also powering your music storage drive from it? Can you tell me where you got the firewire cable with the power leg removed? I can't seem to find the MBS cable anymore.
Thanks,
Jim
Jim,
Check out the Mach2 site under accessories for the FW800 cables.
I just sat down to listen for a couple hours and looking forward to good things! Today i got the FW cable (surprised it arrived so quickly, and I wasn't expecting it in the box). I'm using the BB to power the Phantom Quad (music storage) too.
Listening to Poco Glorybound at the moment and wow!
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Ken,
Great -- found and ordered the cable -- they changed the name, and perhaps a few details from the previous version, but for me this was the last piece of the puzzle. Now if I could only remember where I put my audiophilleo ap2 converter, I'll be in business...
-- Jim
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I think All of you are proven gentlemen of the highest degree displayed by nobody getting their backs up... If he had an improvement and is happy, superb... Happens to us all in one unexplained audio phenomenon (tweak) or another... FWIW, i agree with every post and it is GREAT that we can discuss topics like this without any childish nonsense, and we SHOULD be able to also!.... The ONLY statement in question i had was the LSD one (enhancing musical enjoyment)...... I had a friend MANY years ago, deciding to try some (LSD) , and his report back to me was that music was not his concern at the time, his TOP priority was RUNNING from Fred Flintstone wielding a knife....... (true statement) :) ...... If any of you HAVENT checked out the Peter and May Belt audio tweak site yet... it is a pretty fun read.... Including the writing of a positive message on the cd which also can improve the sound, as well as applying some electret cream to your listening room and for even better results, the entire outside of your house! :) (not intended to bash the Belts)..... You are ALL Gentlemen and Scholars, and i am proud to be here with you guys....... :) and that is a cool idea, everybody chip in 5 bucks for the fuse, and send it on a roadtrip for everyone (who wants to) to try....... proof should be in the puddin"
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Yes, He said the Flintstones were on his t.v. at the time.... So apparently, Hanna-Barbera and LSD is a bad combo....... i am sure none of us here have to worry about this of course... so to recap... Drinking and Driving.... HB and LSD are NOT good ideas.... just trying to help....:)
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No! I drink Bourbon when listening at least once a week. And right now the pain med and muscle relaxer leave me almost hallucinogenic.
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No! I drink Bourbon when listening at least once a week. And right now the pain med and muscle relaxer leave me almost hallucinogenic.
Add some bourbon, and it will really get you out there.
Roger
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Is there some kind of policy that you aren't allowed to be here if you enjoy hallucinogens and music at the same time?
Not at all, and that could certainly explain some of the threads on this forum.
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Is there some kind of policy that you aren't allowed to be here if you enjoy hallucinogens and music at the same time?
Not at all, and that could certainly explain some of the threads on this forum.
Something like these fuses need at least 400 hours to properly burn in?
Sorry, couldn't resist! Happy Friday!!
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This thread went from High $ fuses to hallucinogenics.... Just maybe? they are one in the same???? :)
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There should be a tweaks opinion disclaimer: "This opinion was/was not influenced by the consumption of hallucinogenic drugs, prescribed or otherwise".