Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Digital => Topic started by: xcortes on November 30, 2009, 12:40:28 PM
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You will have fun!
That DAC thing is getting serious. I noticed you're going up to 96k in resolution in your demos. Are you being restricted by the 0404 USB doing only 24/96 on its S/PDIF out?
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To get started we have been using TOSLINK for the SPDIF in and out. The TOSLINK connection is limited to 96K. The DAC itself can handle 192K. We've all been quite busy the past few months and when the time allows a coax SPDIF interface will be added.
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Have you tried a glass toslink "cable" yet? You might hear some differiences, as I found to be the case.
In my system there was a slight improvement over the typical plastic type, more dynamics and finer resolution, yada yada yada...
You can find them on the 'bay at good prices if you search for "glass toslink".
(Sorry, I didn't intend to send this off on another tangent)
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Paul Stubblebine is going to send me some glass TOSLINK cables to try. It's one of those things that gets forgotten with the zillion other things we have going an all the time...
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Are you developing the DAC as a kit? If you are I hope you keep the TOSLINK.
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Yes the goal is two versions, one a tube output 24/192K capable R2R DAC kit with TOSLINK and Coax SPDIF and possibly AES/EBU. The other product that may get developed is a music server project that would work with the DAC. This might take the form of a networked headless unit that allows one to use whatever OS and playback software they prefer on a slaved workstation, feeding it to the headless server over the network via Netjack. That would probably not be offered as a kit, as we wouldn't feel comfortable taking on the burden of OS and software installation tech support.
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We spent yesterday afternoon working on the system setup in preparation for the Bottlehead holiday party this Sunday. We continue to knock down the noise floor, refine the speaker placement and listening position, and we did some minor level adjustment of the crossover as well. When all of this was finished we listened to some 24/96K files through the new DAC. It's getting pretty darned good, I wasn't that "shocked" going back and forth from digital to tape (sometimes the change from tape to digital makes me a little disoriented or ill). Our project today is to cook up a 5V linear supply for the EMU 0404 USB, which is running as our Async USB-SPDIF converter, reclocked by the DAC. Don't know if it will make much difference. But there is only one way to find out...
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It turns out the linear supply on the 0404 USB makes a positive difference - even though the 0404 is functioning only as a USB to SPDIF converter. Seems to flesh things out a bit in the midrange and clean up the top end a bit. The 0404 seems to draw a bit less than .5A. We ended up using the 5V secondary of a surplus Paramount power transformer. This runs into a Schottky bridge, then a 1000uF cap, then an FC-1 filament choke and then a 12000uF cap. That puts out about 6.5VDC at load, which we are regulating with an LM1085IT-ADJ to 5.03V.
I would definitely recommend trying a linear supply if you are using an EMU 0404 USB. It could possibly make even more difference than we heard if you are using the DAC and the audio section in the 0404 rather than an external DAC like we are using.
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I have found that power supplies can make the biggest difference to sound, even with ok circuits and where you think that no change will happen. I have even built power filters for my equipment, because I feel that the cleaner the power the audio circuit gets the better the sound, in most cases.
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All sounds good to me. Can I ask how high a sampling rate you can go with the 0404? There are all kinds of opinions and statements that say that it can only do 24/96 and others who claim it works fine at the 24/192. I'm not sure who to believe, except somebody who is actually using it in the way you are -- bidirectional spdif.
There may also be some other fairly easy and inexpensive little tweaks to get a bit cleaner signal out of the 0404 too, and hopefully I'll be working on that some in the new year.
-- Jim
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I can't confirm or deny 192k operation yet, because we are still limited to 96k due to the TOSLINK. IIRC you can only do up to 96k with a Mac and you can do 192k with a PC - but only with the Creative driver, I think? I'm not married to the 0404USB for this particular project. It was just a very simple way to get started. If I can get my act together with the headless Linux box I bought I may eventually try a different headless box that can handle a PCI-E sound card. At this point I am hung on the headless setup until I find a Linux savvy person to help me sort out why the instructions I have for setup aren't working.
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I have one of those headless linux boxes in the project queue too. But mine doesn't have any provision for any add-in cards except wireless cards. No spdif either, just USB 2.0 spec ports and 3 ethernet ports. Better suited to working with a usb dac, which was what I intended it for. Hopefully that will feed the HRT MusicStreamer+ into the sex amp for the bedroom system.
Any rough ideas what this headless linux box may cost?
-- Jim
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That sounds like the same Alix headless box I have. My original plan was to do the MPD server that nycparamedic describes on Head Fi. This sets up a separate Linux workstation as an NFS server and the MPD player is actually on the headless box. So the USB and LAN ports are just the right setup with a USB DAC. John Swenson has suggested I look into running netjack on the headless box instead and use a Jack friendly player on a Mac, PC or Linux workstation, so that the headless server isn't setting the limit on what player software one might want to use.
Right now I am just trying to get the headless box set up to talk to a NFS, and I'm thinking that I might try to set my PC workstation up for NFS to serve the files and go ahead and try MPD. I seem to have run into a problem with the Linux code on the headless box, and I'm busy enough this time of year that I may have to call in a Linux guru to help me out.
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Hello,
we are mid way in Q1, is it rude to ask for an update (any direction changes) and a best guess on time to market...Q2, Q3, Q4?
I'm holding back on my slow entry into HDD based music to see how this one plays out.
thanks
paba
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I think we have worked out what we want to do for a tube stage, and now we are concentrating the best way to get from the PC to the DAC. John has come up with a neat USB interface suggestion that would involve another manufacturer and thus may take a little time to pursue. Between the fact that this is a new arena for us and that rapid changes are happening in high end server development right now, I feel that we need to take our time and do it right the first time. So it's a little hard to say when it will be ready. I know that's not what folks want to hear, but I think that is better than rushing a product to market that might not be as good as we could ultimately make it.
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That sounds like a very intelligent way to go about this. I know there are a few things in the pipeline for some of the trailblazers in this area, and things for USB options could be getting even better in the future.
Glad to see things won't be rushed.
-- Jim
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Thanks for the update,
precisely because I see the USB input landscape moving is why I asked. So far the best USB inputs Ive heard were transformer isolated. Maybe this one is moving too fast right now and releasing the DAC with SPDIF can get you to some revenue to finance the USB input module R&D which you can sell as add-on when it's ready. I don't want to be a back seat product manager.. we'll be patient.
cheers
paba
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Any update?
My DAC is on the fritz, I
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I noticed some new DACs appearing on the market place lately from folks that are in the same space as Bottlehead. It is getting crowded fast....in the DAC and computer to DAC interface spaces.
I like choice but I find that too many choices means some will loose money unfortunately.
cheers
paba
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I HOPE that the dac is made with the new ESS Sabre chip..... seems alot of people think is hands down the best sounding chip ever.........
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Back in college , I bought some new gear that , at the time, was the best i ever had... i was so excited that I , for awhile, just HAD to come home for lunch JUST to fire it up and listen... SO, if this DAC is going to be awesome...... How about calling it "THE NOONER".......... SO good, you just HAVE to come home for lunch to "fire her up"............ :)
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I HOPE that the dac is made with the new ESS Sabre chip..... seems alot of people think is hands down the best sounding chip ever.........
Probably not. The DAC has been under development for quite some time. The resulting sound has a lot more to do with the associated circuitry and power supply than just the chip.
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Our DAC prototype uses the PCM 1704 R2R type DAC chip. This project was inspired a few years ago when some friends were starting to work with high res music servers, and at that time the consensus was that carefully implemented R2R DACs sounded better than sigma delta DACs. So far that seems to be holding true for us. The project is moving slowly, as I promised. ;^)> I'm trying to get hold of an M2Tech USB:SPDIF interface to work with on the next phase of development, but they seem to still be backordered when I check the distributor's website.
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You know there will be lots of us waiting to "pop out of the woodwork" and pounce on the DAC when it does come out! I would imagine that the response will be very good, esp. if you can manage to keep the initial price around that of commonly-available up-sampling SS DAC's (i.e., in the $400-$900 range).
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Our DAC prototype uses the PCM 1704 R2R type DAC chip.
as expected this will not be a "me too" DAC.. are you using one chip or one for each channel?
/paba
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OK Guys, thank you for the response, and disregard my question on headphone cable in another post I cant remember where..... I finally found it on your site and got my question answered by doin' a little readin'............ thanks again
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Oh Bottlehead, I have been waiting patiently for the dac kit, checking in once in a while to see if the kit is for sale. I have been putting off the foreplay III purchase until i get the dac kit, still,...Nada. Will or can you guys send out an email to us when the kit becomes available? Any Estimated Time of Arrival? Thanks Doc.
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We did a bit of listening to some 24/96K stuff in Winston Ma's beautiful room last week with the new DAC and my EMU0404usb sound card with an external power supply. Unfortunately my netbook got badly fragmented loading some high res files and we could only play 2 to 3 minute long segments of music until I sorted out the problem the next day. But that was enough to convince me that the DAC will stand well with what is out there. Mr. Swenson is working on the SPDIF interface, and once that is finished up he will be testing the DAC with a couple of reasonably priced sound cards that should work well. From there we will begin to work on the final packaging of the electronics.
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sound sexciting,
my target platform with be my mac laptop so maybe I need a little box between the mac and the DAC...
PS. Speaking of Winston... check out his K2HD remaster of the Getz/Gilberto classic...LIM K2HD 036.... I have the CD but it is also avaliable in the premium Ultimate Disk category...
that is if you don't have the Mofi out of production CD. I have both and enjoy the differences in the two masterings.
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Doc,
So are you still planning on a synced spdif connection, or will things like the hiface work with this dac?
BTW, you can also get the Getz Gilberto classic from HDTracks as a 24/96 download.
-- Jim
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The Hiface is something we're looking into. In the meantime we plan to work with cards that should work very well - EMU 0404USB, EMU 1212m, Juli@, and Lynx II. I use the 0404USB as a USB/TOSLINK interface with my Acer netbook and it sounds quite good. I expect the SPDIF setup will be as good or better.
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Bump,
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John Swenson has been making great headway on the DAC. He is closing in on getting the DAC to automatically recognize the sample rate of a given file - pretty cool. He is waiting for me to send him some funds to purchase a few different sound cards to verify their function with it. And I'm waiting for you guys to buy enough products this week so I can send John the funds...
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Ooh, very exciting. I've been lookin at DAC's for a starving college student budget, and I don't mind skipping a meal or two if it means I can really find out how these AIFF files sound.
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Did you end up deciding on implementing AES? Would be nice to use with Lynx or RME AES cards.
thanks!
DC
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I am curious is the DAC will incorporate a tube and the same overall design theme that the other bottlehead products have. Also what is the estimated target price for this bad boy?
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I'm not going to comment on the price, thats not my department! The design uses 1704 DAC chips which have a current output. The DAC chip drives a stepup transformer with an IV resistor after the transformer (PJ is looking into different arrangements, maybe splitting the resistance, some in front of the transformer and some behind, or just all behind, I personally like the all behind). This gives low impedance to the DAC (10 ohms) and still gives some voltage gain before the tube stage. The tube stage then gives some extra gain and buffering to the output.
This scheme is not very common, many designs put a IV resistor after the DAC chip, but you then have to choose, a high value resistor which gives enough voltage to drive a line output BUT causes distortion because of the high impedance the DAC sees, OR a small value resistor which gives appropriate impedance to the DAC chip, BUT needs a high gain amplification stage (similar to a phono stage). The technique we are using lets the DAC chip see the low impedance, but provides enough voltage gain that the tube stage only has to supply a moderate amount of gain.
The transformer also provides the high frequency filtering after the DAC chip so you don't need to add extra components to implement that function.
Right now I'm working on the digitally controlled super low jitter oscillator that can track any S/PDIF input. The original design philosophy was to send a S/PDIF stream from the DAC back to the soundcard which would sync its output to the DAC, this gives extremely low jitter IF you have a soundcard that supports this function. Unfortunately if you fed it from a source without the sync from the DAC you would occasionally drop bits. This turned out to actually sound pretty good, a lot better than I thought it would.
It turns out the company that makes the oscillators I'm using also makes a digitally controlled version which allows you to change the clock frequency in very tiny steps on the fly. I'm trying out one of these right now and have the frequency changing part working (I got it working about an hour ago!) With this I should be able to track the frequency of any input. It won't be quite as good as the source synced to the DAC, so that is still the preferred connection, but it should allow you guys to use this DAC with pretty much anything.
On the AES/EBU front, I'm not planning on putting it in the DAC itself, but it does use BNC connectors and you can buy BNC to AES/EBU transformers which should work. My take is that S/PDIF over BNC is technically a better interface than AES/EBU so I'm not going to compromise the DAC by building in what I consider to be an inferior interface. For those that have DACs with JUST AES/EBU you can use the transformers.
John S.
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Things just got a bit more interesting with the announcement of the new M2 Tech Hi-Face EVO, which reportedly will have a clock input as well as some other goodies, and will sell for under $500.
John, I hope you can get one of these to test with.
-- Jim
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Is there a rough guess as to when this will be available?
I am in the market for a DAC and wondering if I should get something relatively inexpensive while waiting for this or, if this is still a year out, shell out some real cash for something good?
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It's going to be a least two or three more months before we have it all worked out, and then it will take a little time to work out the final product details. Right now the emphasis is on getting Stereomour shipped, and next week we start our move into our new office. In September things should ease up a bit and we hope to get back on the DAC development.
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Thanks Doc. Guess I'll grab an inexpensive solution while I eagerly await the Bottlehead goodness.
And congrats on the new place. Will it be open for visitors around the Dec timeframe? Should be passing back through the states around then and would love to shake hands with the folks who have fed my addiction for the past 11 years (man it doesn't seem like it has been that long).
Be well
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Yes, a big part of the move is having a place where folks can stop by and listen to our products, and also learn about various aspects of audio. I plan to start giving classes on amp building, amp design, using tape recorders and quite a few other ideas we have had over the years but only tried a few of. We will also be willing to host audio club meetings, and I'm kicking around the idea of having informal tape, vinyl and high res digital listening sessions after hours.
I just got word last night that the space should be ready for us to start moving in by the end of next week. I have tentatively planned an open house on October 22, but we hope to be ready to entertain visitors well before that date.
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Anything new on the Bottlehead DAC forefront? A few minor updates to whet our appetites? :)
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bump
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OK guys. So I've been trying to learn a little bit about this stuff in the last days. While I am not at all concerned about the analog part of the DAC I am a little bit underexcited that the DAC won't control the source which really seems to be the ticket. In any case I found that Wavelength makes a USB to SPDIF converter that looks like a good alternative. It is expensive but if I go into digital I want it to be the best possible as is my other BH gear:
http://www.usbdacs.com/Products/Products.html (http://www.usbdacs.com/Products/Products.html)
WaveLink HS 24/192 USB to SPDIF converter:
I know you have been expecting this release for a long time. We were waiting for OSX version 10.6.4 to be released as there were some issues with previous releases. Apple has released 10.6.4 and so we are ready to release the WaveLink product. Since Windows does not support Class 2 USB Audio we had to get a driver capable of working with our product. We therefore have the Thesycon USB Class 2 Audio driver available for our products. All of the new setup is covered in the 24/192 page.
While this will not bring legacy DACS up to the asynchronous capabilities of direct USB connectivity it will do a lot for those people wanting to connect their SPDIF dacs to computers. Since the clock in all transports are changing the SPDIF output also has to change and this is used to control the flow of audio data between a transport and dac. With the WaveLink the clock is fixed and therefore the SPDIF is fixed and this makes the receiver section of any SPDIF connected device to work really well because the internal PLL (Phase Lock Loop) that derives the Audio DATA stream connects at one frequency, locks on and stays there.
This means that the WaveLink has significantly better jitter capabilities than most transports. It also has rates available and shown with LED's for all the popular audio frequencies (44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4 and 192KHz). The WaveLink is shipped with a BNC connector for the best response and is shipped with a suitable BNC-BNC SPDIF cable and with a mating BNC->RCA adapter if your dac requires this. A high grade USB 2.0 High Speed cable is also included with each WaveLink.
$900 US Retail.
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The Hiface is something we're looking into. In the meantime we plan to work with cards that should work very well - EMU 0404USB, EMU 1212m, Juli@, and Lynx II. I use the 0404USB as a USB/TOSLINK interface with my Acer netbook and it sounds quite good. I expect the SPDIF setup will be as good or better.
I have an 0404 E-Mu that has a bad USB port. If you would like to use it for an R&D, then I would be more than happy to ship it your way (my treat.) I am currently using an Apogee Duet, but am waiting to build my own DAC.
Having read through this thread I saw a lot of references to different DAC manufacturers, but did not see anything referring to AudioNotekits.com...pricey, but they have an interesting take on things.
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Thanks for the offer. I already have an 0404 USB that I have been using for evaluation. The DAC project has unfortunately been sitting on the back burner for a few months as we have been getting moved and caught up on product releases that have been delayed even longer than the DAC. However every time I hear it vs. other DACs my enthusiasm is greatly renewed. Now that we are getting caught up I think we will be qble to dive into the next phase of the project.
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ANY chance the DAC will be done by X-MAS? I'm in the market for a DAC and I'd like to get one from Bottlehead first.
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I'm shooting for some time next year.
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Hello Doc,
I am thinking of making your new DAC my next Bottlehead project.
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Today we discussed this a bit (after some debugging of another project). We'll be prototyping a few circuit options in the coming months.
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OK, I'm a basic newb to the subject, but how about the loss-less digital music that is available these days? Will your new DAC be able to handle it? What ever 'it' is. How about FLAC files for instance?
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Thoburn, it's the software on your computer that has to handle the lossless files, not the DAC. If you download Foobar and the kernal streaming plugin, and hunt down an M2Tech HiFace, you'll be in perfect shape to output high quality music (all the way up to 24-bit) to a DAC. You don't need an M2Tech HiFace if your soundcard has a digital output, but I've found it sounds preferable.
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Once upon a time I had a normal life style- a day job and warmed up the stereo when I got home. I used tubes then -just a Dynaco type amp. Now I work at home and turn on music with my morning coffee and often do not turn it off until bedtime. During the day it is mostly classical internet radio. Sometimes it is muted and maybe I turn it off if I leave the house but I bet it runs 5000 hours a year. No way to treat a tube amp- it does not help my current SS stuff either.
Doc my question relates to your dac to be. As a long time lurker I realize the Dac may be ready this year. Hopefully my old stuff sells on Gon by then. Seriously,I have a memory that many months ago you stated you had a good idea of how you would do the tube output. I am not looking for specifics but how practical it might be for me.
One tube or more, heat on desk top, replace tubes every 6 months or year or
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Right now, two or three tubes (including regulators) is still a question, depending on the gain budget. Doc B is currently experimenting with some of the options. They will be operating conservatively, not like power tubes, and should have much longer life than typical power output tubes. Something in the Seduction to Eros range, I would guess.
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Thoburn, it's the software on your computer that has to handle the lossless files, not the DAC. If you download Foobar and the kernal streaming plugin, and hunt down an M2Tech HiFace, you'll be in perfect shape to output high quality music (all the way up to 24-bit) to a DAC. You don't need an M2Tech HiFace if your soundcard has a digital output, but I've found it sounds preferable.
Thanks for the info. I may have to get a cheap DAC just so I can play with the software until the Bottlehead DAC is available.
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Thanks Paul,
I think, reading reading your post and the thread -Tube life on Seduction, this is practical for me. Maybe with bottles in the mix I will turn it off more. Looking forward to your dac announcement. John
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I am really hoping for USB which has become a standard input on many DACs. Can anyone comment if this is going to be implemented, possibly with oversampling or asynchronous data transfer?
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tdogzthmn,
They have already said that they are out to build high-res NOS dac, so I'm not sure what the point of oversampling would be.
Async also comes with some licensing fees that I don't know if BH will be willing to pay for, but it is definitely not the only way to get a great usb implementation.
I think we'll all just have to wait to see what they come up with -- they have some very sharp folks at BH and working on this with them, and from experience we know they aren't going to release a compromised dac just to get it out the door, and I'm guessing that some of this kind of detail is still in the experimental stage.
I myself really want one of these when it comes out as there are precious few high-res NOS dacs out there even today, and it should be a real treat.
-- Jim
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I know Bottlehead is a tentative guest at the Bay Area Head-fi meet on the 19th of February. Any chance the DAC might make an appearance? This would be a great opportunity to build anticipation in the Head-fi community in addition to getting some feedback. I will be in attendance a look forward to seeing/hearing some great gear!
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We have a lot going on over the next few weeks so it's a little hard to say if we will have the DAC in a form ready for demonstration.
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I know the DAC is a bit a way from being a "product" but....
Will there be any surface mount componants used in construction? I really HATE working with SMCs. I found nothing awful about the level 2 "Seduction" I built and no issues stuffing a SDS PAS power supply board.....BUT trying to build a Bantam DAC kit with SMCs made me crazy!!!
Not asking for exact price BUT can you give a range? Will the BH DAC be priced more like Seduction or Crack or more like Stereomour, Eros or even Paramount? Guess I am asking if under or over $500 or above $1,000? Should I be saving my pennies or planning to knock over a bank?
Are you planning a contest to name it? Winner gets a,..ahem..., "free one"? My entry for that is "Digital Self Gratification" ("...in Space they can't hear you scream...in cyber-space they can't see you blush")
Kevin R-M
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We plan to have the SMCs pre mounted. I don't have a price yet, but we will be getting back into this project full swing in the next few weeks.
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We plan to have the SMCs pre mounted....
Bless you! I have nothing against the idea of SMC, but trying to hand solder 'em is, well, trying.
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Doc, as its been over a month since anyone has posted, would you mind giving us an update on the status of the Bottlehead DAC? I'm starting to get more and more interested in this kit!
Thanks!
Dave
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I got a chance to hear Doc's DAC this past weekend and I can assure you that your patience will be well rewarded!
It was hooked up to a Mac Mini via optical S-PDIF running Amarra. I listened to it on a headphone rig as well as Doc's fantastic sounding multi speaker/multi amp system and even though I'm not a big fan of digital, it sounds chiller-diller-killer!
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Thanks for reporting Steve.
This is a product that has indeed caused high expectation!
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Excellent news, I can't wait! :)
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Mac Mini via optical S-PDIF running Amarra.
Two questions:
does the optical s-pdif out of the mini go all the way to 24/192?
would buying a mini be a safish bet if I were to eventually order a BH Dac?
Thanks!
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Unfortunately TOSLINK is limited to 24/96. I think a Mini is a great approach, but it will need some sort of USB or Firewire to SPDIF coax adapter to work all the way to 24/192. Don't have any suggestions about that yet. The next step in John Swenson's investigation of those interfaces was delayed by my getting too many items on my plate past year. But I intend to get this DAC project high up on the development list ASAP.
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Thanks,
I'll wait 'till it's out then.
Keep us posted!
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Dan,
Please don't hate me for asking this, but any ballpark guesses at a price?
I love my current dac, but a NOS 24/192 is not going to be something I can easily overlook, especially considering where it comes from :-).
BTW, a friend has recently had some good results with the audiophillio usb to spdif interfaces under osx and linux with MPD.
-- Jim
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Sorry Jim, I can't even ballpark a price at this point. We still have some parts to figure out that can vary in cost quite a bit.
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I less interested in a ballpark price than in a ballpark date when we might be able to buy. This year?
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Dan,
Understood... and what Sam said. :-)
-- ZJim
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my forward movement with the Mini is part of the process of getting this product to market. Hope to have it ready this year.
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Can someone explain to me the "jitter" problem. What is it? Where does it comes from? What does it sound like? How can it be overcome?
In John's post a few pages back he writes:
Right now I'm working on the digitally controlled super low jitter oscillator that can track any S/PDIF input. The original design philosophy was to send a S/PDIF stream from the DAC back to the soundcard which would sync its output to the DAC, this gives extremely low jitter IF you have a soundcard that supports this function. Unfortunately if you fed it from a source without the sync from the DAC you would occasionally drop bits. This turned out to actually sound pretty good, a lot better than I thought it would.
What soundcards would support this function?
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This waiting for the Bottlehead DAC is driving me crazy!! If I could place my order now I would. In the mean time to get me by, have any of you built the AMB Laboratories y2 USB DAC and if so what are your impressions? It sounds like a fairly inexpensive substitute for the Bottlehead DAC until it is ready for purchase.
Thanks!
Dave
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This waiting for the Bottlehead DAC is driving me crazy!! If I could place my order now I would. In the mean time to get me by, have any of you built the AMB Laboratories y2 USB DAC and if so what are your impressions?
I was working on building one until my Crack, Foreplay, and Paramount's came in. From what I have read it is a great deal for the money, but...
1) I abhor how the parts list is put together. If you go with it, be sure to print it out and be free with the highlighter. Double, triple, quadruple check your list before you order.
2) It has some very small components so you better have a magnifier of some sort.
3) You will have to solder a lot of SMD's. Here is a link to a kit for practice http://co-bw.com/DIY_Soldering_Practice_Kit.htm#smd (http://co-bw.com/DIY_Soldering_Practice_Kit.htm#smd) The kit is a bit pricey, but you will get a lot of practice. For me, I prefer the "flood and suck" method with SMD's. ("Flood and suck"...goes great with the BH naming scheme.) I do not suck though (that's what she said). I use USA made Qucik Braid-Easy Braid to desolder. Don't waste your time or money on the imported crap from Radio Shack. I tried various suction devices, but he braid works best by far.
I have done a lot of searching for cheap DIY DAC's and they just are not there. The y2 does not cost much, and it does fit the bill for portability and temporary DIY filler until the BH DAC is rolled out.
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Thanks for your response, I appreciate it. I know what you mean about the parts list and the hi-lighters. Very confusing. I think I might give it a shot!
Thanks again,
Dave
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Just a quick update-
We are back at this project after letting it percolate for a few months while we got caught up on other projects. During this time John Swenson has made some very interesting breakthroughs that make the DAC even more useful and even better sounding. I still don't have an exact time frame for release, but wanted to let everyone know that it is high on the priority list these days.
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Good to hear. By useful, I hope there will be a USB option. I don't plan to go back to a sound card. I moved to a Vortex box on my old computer. That gives me USB and SPDIF, with a Squeezbox...John
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I think Doc mentioned both TOSLINK and USB interfacing capabilities.
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I think Doc mentioned both TOSLINK and USB interfacing capabilities.
I'd like to see a good old fashioned 75ohm BNC input myself ;)
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Can anyone give a size estimate of the DAC? Is it smaller/larger than the Crack I currently own? I am hoping it has a somewhat small footprint as many DACs need to share space on desks with lots of other peripherals.
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Funny, I was just wondering the same thing today as I was looking at my very crowded rack. :-)
-- Jim
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Sonic performance comes first on this project, and if it takes some real estate to incorporate what we feel we need to get the best sound, we will make it as big as it needs to be. We're still talking about different approaches, one of which is two chassis. Right now I am leaning toward a single chassis if possible. This will have the DAC, possibly three separate power supplies (real ones, not wall warts) and some tubes. So it might end up the size of a Crack or maybe a Foreplay or maybe even a Stereomour. But we are still working through this. John has been working hard on the latest iteration of the DAC circuitry and I'll have a more to share soon.
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Another month gone by ... any update on the DAC? Obviously you'll post when there's something to share, but I thought I'd prod you just once... :)
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John is working on a layout concept that requires some careful squeezing in of all the parts. You just reminded me that he may be waiting for some dimensional info from me.
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Happy to oblige :)
I'm waiting off on getting a DAC for the BH model, though it's hard, especially with the increasing number of albums I'm getting on FLAC only.
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It's scary that it's been another month (I have so much stuff to do), but I'm just checking in again. I'm wondering if the DAC will be ready by the end of the year still, or if more time will be needed.
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i still need to figure out what i can sell to get one of these :)
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Doc,
You might make me go to a PC based digital system after all. I have faith in the Bottlehead designs. I just hope it becomes available in the foreseeable future.
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No actual tubes were harmed while making this post...John
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Also Keen on this!
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We're continuing to work on the project. As I said this one is going to take some time. But I think we should have a prototype that is a bit closer to the final product in the next few months.
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I've suddenly become much more patient about this, since I just did a side-by-side comparison of a CD played on my Denon with the same CD in FLAC form on my PC, output from the Juli@ (which does the DAC). The difference is almost imperceptible. I don't know if that means my Denon has a crappy DAC or that the Juli@ has a great one, but either way things are pretty nice the way they are.
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John and I had a great meeting at CAS 2011 and worked out several more details of the DAC. It will present the potential for some pretty neat upgrades. I think the pace will be picking up a bit now. I'll continue to post about our progress.
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Dan,
How about a thread that charts the proposed features of this future Bottlehead product? The information is fragmented throughout this thread and possibly others. The OP could be updated as features were added or decided against.
Possibly this would be a good suggestion for new and revised products as Bottlehead cooks them up. That is, a thread dedicated to the proposed product and its features. Like the SUT that didn't quite make it. I realize that if it doesn't meet your standards you are not going to market a product. But it will both gauge interest and allow you to see what your market is looking for.
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Great news. Add me to the list who will be pre-purchasing when available (assuming I can afford it!)....
John
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Thanks for the update Doc! Really excited to hear more about it when you are ready to release details.
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While we are patiently waiting for Doc's Dac I thought we might enjoy seeing the competition. This thingmabob replaces the Dac, Crack, and Foreplay-Wow! Look at the footprint, here she is in all her tube glory.
http://www.iogear.com/product/GUADT51/
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Hmmm...Don't think I'll be ditching my Foreplay anytime soon. Is that a recycled mp3 shoved in a plastic tube?
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any chance the dac will have space or an option for balanced volume attenuation?
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From your posts today, Doc, it looks like you're back working on the DAC. Any progress you're willing to report, or any enticing details to share?
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John has been working on the latest board which, if it works as planned, will offer a basic dual power supply with the option to upgrade to multiple supplies, SPDIF input with the option to upgrade to USB and a choice of display options for the sample rate. PJ and I are laying out a new concept for the tube output that follows some of our recent work to improve the transient response and bass control of all of our tube designs. If at all possible I will bring a prototype to RMAF to show in the Can-Jam room.
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Are there any pictures of your work in progress? I would be really interested in seeing what it looks like while you guys have it set up for prototyping.
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Everything is in separate chassis while we continue to work up new bits for the DAC, so we don't really have anything photo-worthy yet.
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I am glad to hear of the USB option. I have moved away from the PC and soundcard, I don't want to go back...John
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I am glad to hear of the USB option. I have moved away from the PC and soundcard, I don't want to go back...John
I don't quite understand. How would the music files be played, if not with a operating system platform?
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You could connect the SPDIF output of a CD Player to the DAC. Then the CD player is simply the "transport" reading the disk and sending the data to the DAC for conversion to analog.
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Finished up the repackaging of the DAC to take to RMAF, the last thing we had to get complete for showtime. Looks nice and neat on two chassis connected by an umbilical. Power supplies on first chassis tested fine, but when I connected the DAC board in the second chassis to the power supply it had some residual charge and we saw the LEDs on the DAC board flash. Oops. Fired it up and we got a little bit low reading on the - rail side indicating something was pulling too much current, i.e. overly bright LEDs, then *wink*, no LEDs on that side. Arrgh! The board ran great with exactly the same power supply on a really shaky breadboard for over a year! Overnighting a bag of transistors to replace one that seems blown and have some spares on hand, and crossing our fingers that the transistor is all that blew and we can take this puppy to RMAF...
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Good Luck!
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Just like having an out of town guest to hear your system and one channel goes out.
I have confidence in Chez Bottlehead to get it running.
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I don't quite understand. How would the music files be played, if not with a operating system platform?
It is the soundcard I mostly want to get away from. The soundcard gives you the SPDIF out. I use a Lunix based Vortexs box which uses the Squeezbox software to play the music, out the USB port. A PC running something like Foobar, or a Mac and itunes would work the same way...John
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Oh boy, well, hoping it's an easy fix as this is one of the things I most want to hear at RMAF.
Just to clarify, this is running 24/192 in NOS mode, correct?
Have you tested this with an Audiophilleo usb-spdif converter by any chance? If not, would it be ok for me to bring mine to the show?
Would love to hear this in combination with the Smack and some balanced hd-600s or AKG K-601s, but can't remember if you have the latter or not.
-- Jim
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We won't have the final version with SPDIF, USB, multiple power supplies, automatic sample rate detection, display, etc. ready for RMAF This is our R&D prototype that we have been running for the past year. If it can be fixed today it will be connected by TOSLINK directly to a Mac Mini using Amarra 2.3 and thus will be maxxed at 24/96 NOS mode. It does however demonstrate some very interesting ideas developed by John Swenson that revolve around use of an FPGA and PCM 1704 DACs, and our best stab at a single stage shunt reg'd and active loaded output stage. The production version will be ready hopefully not too long after RMAF.
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Dan,
thanks, sounds good.
-- Jim
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Luckily I just took out a couple of transistors (aka three legged fuses). DAC is up and running and sounding better than ever now that all the DAC and tube output bits are close together in one chassis. Working up a playlist this afternoon that should let folks get a feel for what she can do at both 44K and 96K, and then we pack and ship the gear to Denver tomorrow.
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Jeeze,.. with all that time to spare, you should mod something!
Just joking of course. Looking forward to hearing everything in a few weeks.
I should be getting to your tables sometime before noon on Friday.
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Hey Steve,
Hopefully we'll get a chance to meet this year. Keep an eye out for me as I can't do that :-). As far as I know, myself and another blind guy, Guido Corona, will be the only two blind guys there. Guido and I have been friends for many years frm our days in assitive technology, and only discovered our mutual audio addiction about 7 years ago. He won't mind if you mistake me for him and vice-versa.
Hope to see you there,
Jim
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Jeeze,.. with all that time to spare, you should mod something!
I did. We just modded the Paramounts to fully balanced output, and the K1Ks have really nice bass now. We also tweaked the DAC a bit with a simple first order filter to keep out any VHF nasties. So everything we bring will be the latest tweaked version - Crack with the lowered output impedance update, production prototype Smack with balanced cans, prototype S.E.X. 2.1 with the prototype C4S upgrade, and the Paramount 300B monoblocks with balanced output.
Now if I could just get those ribbon headphones working right by showtime...
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Dan,
You never disappoint me!
Jim,
Look forward to meet you and your buddy (and any other Bottleheads)!
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Luckily I just took out a couple of transistors (aka three legged fuses). DAC is up and running and sounding better than ever now that all the DAC and tube output bits are close together in one chassis. Working up a playlist this afternoon that should let folks get a feel for what she can do at both 44K and 96K, and then we pack and ship the gear to Denver tomorrow.
Looking forward to hearing it, and seeing all of you up there. Plan on attending both Fri and Sat.
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Doc I have been waiting over a year for your DAC. I waited because of John S and his reputation. I am a little disappointed that you say you are trying to to squeeze this little kit under $1K. Your business, your choice. John is finished, and it may be worth the wait, but it is now time to come out of the closet. I do not care a hoot about hi-res but I want to know if I need to buy a reclocker box like the mod Hiface or other. I really want to hear from John S what he has done. Please!
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Doc I have been waiting over a year for your DAC. I waited because of John S and his reputation. I am a little disappointed that you say you are trying to to squeeze this little kit under $1K. Your business, your choice. John is finished, and it may be worth the wait, but it is now time to come out of the closet. I do not care a hoot about hi-res but I want to know if I need to buy a reclocker box like the mod Hiface or other. I really want to hear from John S what he has done. Please!
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I'm still not sure of the price myself. I probably need to stop guesstimating that kind of thing and just tell folks that they will know when I know. I do know that we will use the same costing formula that we use for pricing all of our products. Which, by the way, is a smaller markup than the industry standard. I should probably let my advisors prevail and we should increase prices across the board by 60%. But I'm pretty stubborn on that point...
Regarding reclocking, we started with the idea that there would be a need to reclock whatever the DAC was connected to. But John came up with a way to avoid that, that sounds better. I think I've shared the more central features in these threads - PCM 1704 chips, 192kHz capability, SPDIF and optional USB inputs, multiple well regulated power supplies, options for sample rate display, tube output. I don't speak for John, if he wishes to talk about the project it's fine with me. If not, I understand. He is a very busy guy and this project has been a longer and more involved process than I suspect either of us anticipated. It's not for lack of enthusiasm for the project, it sounds really good. Currently I am the impediment, having to finish up some other business items before I can put time and money into the next phase. Those other items are coming to a close and more progress toward a final prototype should be happening soon, as in this month.
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Doc I have been waiting over a year for your DAC. I waited because of John S and his reputation. I am a little disappointed that you say you are trying to to squeeze this little kit under $1K. Your business, your choice. John is finished, and it may be worth the wait, but it is now time to come out of the closet. I do not care a hoot about hi-res but I want to know if I need to buy a reclocker box like the mod Hiface or other. I really want to hear from John S what he has done. Please!
That is my bumped post Doc. It is great to hear that John's S work will not need a reclocker box. Great! I would like to hear him say that, but a techie explanation would go way over my head. The only thing I know about chips is that I like them with dip. I am surprised the point of the post was lost on you. I am assuming you are plunged into the whole audio fool mess and that you realize these reclocker boxs run +- $600 with the extra cable.Add that to your 1K and a BH upgrade or two you could be around 2K.
Thankfully John S has figured out a way of avoiding the reclocker boxes! Perhaps 1K for your kit is not so bad. I will wait and see. John
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1704 and multiple power supplies , sounds great! I have a 1702 dac with careful power supply design , that sounds superb, so i suspect a 1704 version I have always wanted, so this is exciting... can I ask you Doc, why the 1704 and not the latest ESS sabre chip? do you guys prefer the 1704s sound, i have no experience myself with the ESS chip, so i am just curious if your crew has.... thank you
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JohnLL sounds like you are not familiar with the Bottlehead gestation. It is often longer than expected and announced but yields top notch products.
Posting the same thing three times is completely unnecessary. Bottlehead has a number of products under development right now. The Smack is taking Doc's time this week. It is getting ready for release in the next few weeks. There is also a high end preamp in addition to the DAC which Doc is trying to refine to his satisfaction. There is a prototype that has been shown at two gatherings.
Bottlehead is not a digital company. This is a new area for them. My experience, with Bottlehead, is the products often take longer than first announced and are worth the wait.
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I want to say a few things regarding the direction this product development conversation has taken recently.
First, I don't know too many companies who are willing to discuss their product development on-line AND share their early prototypes with the audio public. This kind of interaction is great but with it comes two responsibilities for those waiting for the product: patience and loyalty. If we were to lack either, it would be in BH's best interest to not share in the manner they do (think of the Apple model). This needs to be a two-way relationship.
Second, how easy is it to have a bunch of audiophiles give their collective "wish list" on a dynamic source component that may have seen the most change/progress of ANY audio component in the the last five years? If it were "that easy" everyone would be doing it...which, in a way, they are. The level of competition, the pace of change, and the advance of the collective knowledge base is tremendous. Let's cut a bit of slack to a non-digital company for trying to develop a product worthy of their name. That kind of effort needs to be celebrated for the journey as much as the destination.
Third, it is tiresome to see people focused on "self" so much they seem to think that when they decided this might be a product they wanted, that the whole world needed to stop everything else until they were had what they wanted. There is much more satisfaction in the friendship of the BH Forum than anything else. Let the self go and support the team...you will feel better about everything, I promise you. Does it sound like I am preaching? Yes, and that is because some are getting aggressively focused on themselves, not supporting the team and that isn't good for the team.
If you want to support the BH DAC project, send a note to Doc saying you would buy the product, purchase other BH kits to keep the company profitable, support the forum in a constructive manner (i.e. support others first), and when Doc announces he is having an open house to listen to the prototype, make an effort to attend, listen, and then share your experience with others. In short, be positive and focus on others first (yes, this is the opposite of being negative and focusing on self first): simple stuff that should be applied to everything in life, not just the BH DAC thread, and a real shame that it has to be said at all. Just my two cents....
John
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I think it should do ADC, 64 bit 512kHz, have a headphone output (Ni opts, of course) and use mercury rectifiers. Digital processing capabilities to use it as a crossover would be mandatory if the price will be above that of the
Quickie.
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I want to say a few things regarding the direction this product development conversation has taken recently.
First, I don't know too many companies who are willing to discuss their product development on-line AND share their early prototypes with the audio public. This kind of interaction is great but with it comes two responsibilities for those waiting for the product: patience and loyalty. If we were to lack either, it would be in BH's best interest to not share in the manner they do (think of the Apple model). This needs to be a two-way relationship.
Second, how easy is it to have a bunch of audiophiles give their collective "wish list" on a dynamic source component that may have seen the most change/progress of ANY audio component in the the last five years? If it were "that easy" everyone would be doing it...which, in a way, they are. The level of competition, the pace of change, and the advance of the collective knowledge base is tremendous. Let's cut a bit of slack to a non-digital company for trying to develop a product worthy of their name. That kind of effort needs to be celebrated for the journey as much as the destination.
Third, it is tiresome to see people focused on "self" so much they seem to think that when they decided this might be a product they wanted, that the whole world needed to stop everything else until they were had what they wanted. There is much more satisfaction in the friendship of the BH Forum than anything else. Let the self go and support the team...you will feel better about everything, I promise you. Does it sound like I am preaching? Yes, and that is because some are getting aggressively focused on themselves, not supporting the team and that isn't good for the team.
If you want to support the BH DAC project, send a note to Doc saying you would buy the product, purchase other BH kits to keep the company profitable, support the forum in a constructive manner (i.e. support others first), and when Doc announces he is having an open house to listen to the prototype, make an effort to attend, listen, and then share your experience with others. In short, be positive and focus on others first (yes, this is the opposite of being negative and focusing on self first): simple stuff that should be applied to everything in life, not just the BH DAC thread, and a real shame that it has to be said at all. Just my two cents....
John
John
Well said! Bottlehead is a unique company, with unheard of customer service, and this is the most civil forum I have ever been on.
I look forward to the DAC, and support Doc and crew in their efforts
Thanks
Debra
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No! Me, me, it's all about me!
I think I have been fairly patient , here's my post from 2006
http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=bottlehead&n=107907&highlight=DAC+2wo&r=&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fsearchtext%3Dphilnyc%26SelectForumtubes%3Dtubes
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"I want to say a few things regarding the direction this product development conversation has taken recently.
First, I don't know too many companies who are willing to discuss their product development on-line AND share their early prototypes with the audio public. This kind of interaction is great but with it comes two responsibilities for those waiting for the product: patience and loyalty. If we were to lack either, it would be in BH's best interest to not share in the manner they do (think of the Apple model). This needs to be a two-way relationship.
Second, how easy is it to have a bunch of audiophiles give their collective "wish list" on a dynamic source component that may have seen the most change/progress of ANY audio component in the the last five years? If it were "that easy" everyone would be doing it...which, in a way, they are. The level of competition, the pace of change, and the advance of the collective knowledge base is tremendous. Let's cut a bit of slack to a non-digital company for trying to develop a product worthy of their name. That kind of effort needs to be celebrated for the journey as much as the destination.
Third, it is tiresome to see people focused on "self" so much they seem to think that when they decided this might be a product they wanted, that the whole world needed to stop everything else until they were had what they wanted. There is much more satisfaction in the friendship of the BH Forum than anything else. Let the self go and support the team...you will feel better about everything, I promise you. Does it sound like I am preaching? Yes, and that is because some are getting aggressively focused on themselves, not supporting the team and that isn't good for the team.
If you want to support the BH DAC project, send a note to Doc saying you would buy the product, purchase other BH kits to keep the company profitable, support the forum in a constructive manner (i.e. support others first), and when Doc announces he is having an open house to listen to the prototype, make an effort to attend, listen, and then share your experience with others. In short, be positive and focus on others first (yes, this is the opposite of being negative and focusing on self first): simple stuff that should be applied to everything in life, not just the BH DAC thread, and a real shame that it has to be said at all. Just my two cents...."
The above is Bottlehead nonsense. For most sane people audio is not a religion, must less BH stuff. I am not your enemy Doc, but I refuse to kneel and become your groupie. I will not trouble you any more.
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The above is Bottlehead nonsense. For most sane people audio is not a religion, must less BH stuff. I am not your enemy Doc, but I refuse to kneel and become your groupie. I will not trouble you any more.
Please put your ego in check and look at what you are saying, JohnLL. You can't have it both ways: you don't get first class, personal service AND get to troll on the forum. I'll stand behind what I said and continue to invite you to see the big picture. And not being an angry, selfish person really will make you happier. Just stop being angry and try being constructive with something of value to add to the discussion.
Peace...
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I am not your enemy Doc, but I refuse to kneel and become your groupie. I will not trouble you any more.
Damn, someone told this guy what we really do at those meetings. And I even bought an extra black robe.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_kRuD6zV4Fqs%2FTF9dmQjIM8I%2FAAAAAAAAEi4%2FtPjRP2AC9QQ%2Fs400%2Fishot-1270.jpg&hash=311454251112fd42def89d99ec771319addc9edb)
Seriously, I'm sorry if you feel like you just got pig-piled. I really did try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. What the other guys said is of course their own opinion, and I think if you met me you would find I'm not looking for fanboys. The DAC is a new direction for us, and it's about the most complicated thing we've ever worked on. Like our other products I want to do one that I feel good about, and there are a lot more little details that need to be worked out than usual. That doesn't necessarily mean adding complexity and cost either. John found a way to eliminate the need for reclocking, and I am experimenting with alternatives to some rather expensive transformers we spec'd for the IV conversion. I know it causes frustration when we start to talk about a design and it takes a lot of time to get it out there - it can frustrate me too, particularly when I am often the impediment - and I understand if people feel they need to buy someone else's product to fit their time frame.
Sorry guys, I'm locking this one before it gets ugly.