Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Paully on August 13, 2012, 02:11:23 AM
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A couple of questions. What wire do people like to use in their speakers? I have been using Neotech (18 gauge, solid core) for signal path in my amps up to now, but I had just assumed that it was good. Been reading that most people don
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Paully, I usually use this wire for internal speaker hook-up http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/speaker-wire/supra-classic-2.5-speaker-wire-per-foot-13-awg/ I like its size and it is easy to work with. As far as differences between PVC and PTFE, teflon has better heat resistance, less shrinkage when you solder. I think the teflon insulated wire is rated for higher voltage, but don't quote me on that, I may be wrong. I like the neotech wire as well, both the PVC and Teflon, I noticed at PCX they now have cotton insulated neotech wire available. Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Shawn
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In a speaker the voltage is very low and with an SET amp the current is also very low. In comparison, the signal path wire has much higher voltage in a tubed amplifier, still very low current.
I would expect that the only concern is insulation rating for the wire, so 600V-700V will be enough for all Bottlehead equipment. I wouldn't put 300V rated insulation in a SEX, Stereomour or Paramount.
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Thanks for the replies. I like the look of that wire. I, of course, will look around a bit, but I think that just might be the ticket.
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Hey Paully - I use pieces of some old Audioquest Type 4 speaker wire I have laying around - I sleep good at night with that. For short pieces in tight places I use 22 AWG teflon coated solid silver from Homegrown Audio. Again, restful sleep!
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Hey Paully,
I currently use Auric hook up wire which is stranded copper @ 16 awg. It's the same stuff Auricap uses for their capacitor leads. I'm using it in the crossover networks as well as wiring up the drivers. I have to believe the difference heard would be difficult to detect and the types used will vary greatly. Wish I could offer better help but with so many things audiophile it comes down to what works for you.
John
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When Clark and Molly Blumenstein arrived in Eugene to set up the ORCAS+BUF SUBs in my Bottlehead Customs system, Clark used Bluejeans Cable Co. Belden 5000 10 Ga. cable in a white jacket to connect to my 2A3 amp. He did not tin the ends, but exercised considerable care to tighten the connection to the binding posts with a pair of pliers and unusual force. He said that they should be checked after awhile and re-tightened if necessary to make a great connection. Since I will not be changing speakers around in my system any time soon; this was no problem for me(who always used banana connectors previously), as these are my last speakers until Clark builds something better. I love them, and discover new things as they mature and develop a healthy relationship with my electronics and my room. All who have sat down to audition are startled at the huge stage they present, even at low volumes. And the fact that they are a bargain is not lost on my friends either. Played the Telarc/Fennel/Holst Wind Band Suites the other day, and was astonished when the kettledrum entered the room! Tactile, true rendition of real percussion. Ya hadda been there. Can't wait for the 400 hour Miracle! Photo below.... My wife declaring them "wonderful", as she listens to Dudamel leading the Simon Bolivar Orchestra in "La Mer" on the DVD "El Sistema". 36" out for perfect imaging.
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Some great suggestion. I just went ahead grabbed some 13 awg wire as was suggested from Madisound. I saw that it was PVC and started to say, no, no way then decided I just can't let myself become "that guy". So I bought so I could be done with it. Thanks again!
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Paully - I think you are already 'that guy'!
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I've just got to chime in here. I was crazy about AudioQuest's Midnight speaker cable. So much so, that I took some of it and started to use it for various other purposes. Anything from internal speaker wire to hook up wire. It was made of many solid strands of high purity copper. But here is the surprise---the ground conductors had an insulation that was SEMI-CONDUCTIVE. No kidding! it has about 10 ohms of resistance. I use it still as a ground, with CAUTION. Pretty weird huh?
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Paully - I think you are already 'that guy'!
I know. Oh well. I can pretend though, right?
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Cool thread, lots of ideas going on. Here's my (small) technical contribution:
1) Teflon is an excellent, linear dielectric. That means it should make good capacitors (it does!). In speakers, the capacitive reactance between wires is very, very small compared to the driver impedances. In tube amps, the impedances are high and the capacitance between wires is much more likely to have an effect. So I would expect teflon insulation to be much mroe important in amps than in speakers.
2) In speakers, the low impedances mean that you can't ignore wire resistance. So wire gauge is important, or at least it can be.
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I've never worried about using teflon in speakers, I try to use all teflon in my amps though. I tried to find the voltage ratings of the Neotech PVC and Teflon hook-up wire, could not find that info. I did find info on the new cotton insulated wire, seems to be an interesting design. http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/neo_76111.pdf
Cheers,
Shawn
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Ok, given that I am that guy even if I don't like to admit it, you do realize I am going to have to go change all the wire in my amplifier from PVC to Teflon now? Glad I went ahead and sprung for the 13 gauge wire in my speakers.
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. . . In tube amps, the impedances are high and the capacitance between wires is much more likely to have an effect. So I would expect Teflon insulation to be much more important in amps than in speakers. . .
Is it that the wire capacitance is large compared to the inter-electrode capacitances in the tube? Would Teflon wire cause a high frequency roll off.
Paully, go trendy, go with cotton covered. Seriously, I have heard some cotton covered interconnects that were pretty impressive!
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Grainger, I like the cotton insulated wire, it holds it's shape well. One problem I ran into with it was making twisted pairs. When I used my drill to twist them the insulation started bunching up, made a mess. Twisting by hand was fine though.
Cheers,
Shawn
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I'm imagining Paully will mostly make short signal path runs inside his amp. The only twisted pair in there are power wires like incoming AC and heaters. I'm not sure if the inputs are twisted, maybe?
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I doubt I will ever actually go to the trouble to replace the PVC wire in my amps. I will just worry about it forever.
Is there any concern with cotton insulated wire that the copper will tarnish over time being exposed to the air? Maybe we can give YOU something to obsess over!
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The copper will tarnish on the surface, but the signal will pass through well soldered ends that can't tarnish. It also goes through the wire center as well as the surface for very high frequencies.
I don't think it matters.
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You're no fun.
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I am a really big fan of cotton insulatiohn and can easily hear the difference between two identical interconnects -- one with (pick your plastic) insulation, and unbleached cotton.
I'm going to be rewiring my Nagas and subs -- both captively on the speaker side, with the same 10 gauge stranded belden wire that Clark uses, but I will strip allthe plastic off the conductors and re-sleeve them with cotton tube, then retwist thepair and put a larger diameter cotton jacket over them, and may even "worm" them some cotton twine before the jacket.
I've also been slowly collecting NOS western electric vintage cloth covered wire and just yesterday got a brand new roll of what appears to be 30 or maybe even 33 gauge -- superb in bundles for interconnects, and I may even rewire my tonearm with this stuff.
As to the corrosion problem -- I have some cloth insulated wire from the 1930s (old telegraph wire, 15 gauge, solid core) and when you slide the the insulation back, it's clean, bright copper -- no green anywhere (and these are unwaxed cotton), same with this fine gauge stuff I just got, and hundreds of feet of 22 gauge and 17 gauge are all the same.
If I have to use teflon, I also prefer the vh audio foam/fep stuff as it is mostly air.
Jupiter makes some nice cotton insulated copper wire and vh audio has some super nice cotton/silver (hold onto your checkbooks), but I've never found the stuff from HGA to be very good -- not sure why -- the cotton is ok, but the silver is probably the most etched and edgy sounding silver I've tried.
Anyway, just my opinion and worth every penny you paid for it :D.
-- Jim
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I was talking to the Jupiter guy about his cotton insulated wire. He said to be careful of shorts. I am going to order some regardless and see what I think. From what I have been reading here that doesn't seem to be a concern of people posting thus far (twisting it together, etc...). I know you wouldn't use it in a power supply but signal path can sometimes have decent voltage can't it?
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Hey Jim - Interesting analysis on wire! You definitely take the wire prize! ("collecting NOS western electric vintage cloth") - it doesnt get any more hard core than that - assuming its solid core wire - otherwise never-mind - pun intended. I will have to add above observations to the 'data base'.
Interesting thing on silver - I have experienced the 'edgy, etched' phenomenon. It was with my Silver Audio Silver Bullets 4's. It took me awhile to find a good replacement for them, and it didnt end up being copper. Silver seemed like a double edged sword for me. Kind of like good SS vs. tubes. Or a P/O cap vs. a high end metalized poly. I like resolution and definition. I dont like fatigue and pain. I wouldnt use silver for a home made interconnect or speaker wire because I dont think its worth the price, unless its a 'perfect' match for your system. Not sure what that would be. IMO silver may need very good shielding (especially in interconnects). I may be wrong on that. Other interesting observation is that since I am now usin JPS Labs on my front end, I'm using my Silver Audio interconnect on my sub-woofer. They sound really good there. Nice 'definition' compared with a good silver over copper Better Cables Silver Serpent.
My last comment on wires is that anyone who is even 'thinking' about shelling out their hard earned cash on silver speaker wire, of any brand, should first try the JPS Labs stuff. A whole 'different' animal. IMO as far as different sounding wire there are three main camps: copper, silver and the JPS aluminum alloy, with huge variability within those technologies. For those who havent read the review by Don Shaulis its a must read for the audiophile mental library - It on Stereo Times site - Aluminata Reference Series Cables.
Peace - Eric
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Grainger,
I have some of that "trendy" cotton wire. Silver in this case but only 26 awg. I thought to do a braided configuration to increase the current handling capability (a la Homegrown Audio) but just decided to go with the Auric stranded copper. I have to say though the large size conductors mentioned have me thinking. At this point I've maintained 16 awg through out, driver hook up as well as crossover wiring. I was really frozen by the choices and the only thing that decided it was I'm using 95% Auricaps which use that specific wire for their lead outs. Many times I've wanted to rewire my Paramount's and EFP 3 but I'm just to picky. I'd have to tear it down completely.... well good luck Paully!
John
Here's a pic of the current state of affairs
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Very nice looking crossovers there John!
Over many years of experiments, I find that different cable gets along better with different drivers. That's not what anyone wants to hear as you have to experiment and there's no real magic bullet, but I like Cardas with some things as it can potentially roll off bright treble and Neotech UP-OCC in Teflon as it can bring out detail in more mellow sounding setups. I also like Cardas silver for it's smooth sound, although silver is too pricey to use now-a-days. If I'm not sure or feeling cheap, I generally use 14-16 gauge silver plated copper in PTFE (Teflon), It's low-cost, plentiful and has lots of great uses like power wiring and makes nice sounding speaker cables.
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John,
I liked the interconnects I heard in cotton. And nice tidy work on the crossover, really square corners, I do that myself.
If you have 20WPC across 4 ohms that is a constant 2.236 amps of current. That is if you keep the output at 20 watts. A #36 wire will probably carry 2A without heating. I am saying that you can't warm the #26 with your Paramounts. The tubes and cathode resistors will warm the wire but not the current.
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yah, but what about rectangular wire?
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I was just looking at AWG, maybe you can get an equivalent AWG for the rectangular wire? Then I can look it up in the NEC. It doesn't get much smaller than #14. That is the reason for my conjecture above.
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Greg just because your head is shaped like a rectangle doesnt mean its a good thing!
peace, love, dope - Eric
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Ok Eric, just for that, tell me the internal impedance of hollow rectangular wire insulated with cotton strand on the INSIDE? Per meter, at absolute zero, in space, cuz thats what they use on the 'curiosity' and no one can hear your THD in space.
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Just adding to this insanity:
Resistance=Rho*Length/Cross Sectional Area
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Well, I ordered some of that 13 gauge Madisound wire and I also order some 16 gauge Jupiter cotton insulated wire. Just couldn't help myself. I thought I might rewire some of the signal path wire on my amps with the Jupiter wire when I do some other work. I have no idea which one I am going to use for my crossovers and hook-up wire inside the model 19's I am rebuilding. And since I am probably not ever going to try one then get back in there and redo it with the other, I suppose I will flip a coin and call it good!
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There certainly are a lot of choices for wire! One of my favorites is also the biggest pain to work with, and that is litz wire. The problem that I have is no secret----stripping it! Any ideas about how to go about it? I have used a scraping technique with a razor blade, or use steel wool to do the job. When prepped, I use a thick liquid flux and then wipe it off hoping that it has any leftover scrapings attached to it. It still is not what I want for an end result.
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Eric and Greg,
You guys brothers? ;D
John
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. . . I also order some 16 gauge Jupiter cotton insulated wire. Just couldn't help myself. . . .
LOL, and I did! Your wife will back me on your lack of control when it comes to certain things audio.
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Obsessive compulsive is hard to live with.
No idea how to strip litz wire, truth is I use solid core as much as humanly possible.
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John,
For the first time in my life, I doubt my fathers stories about going out of town to play piano for a dance job.
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so thats what happened!....hum. I always liked Billy Joel. Interesting...
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Greg, a solder pot works well for litz wire. Kind of an expensive tool if you don't use it much.
Cheers,
Shawn
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Eric ... you're always quick with a joke or to light up a smoke ;D
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Nice Desmond!
We need more humor in this messed up world!
regards gents,
John
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Eric(bro),
Once again I find you rude and boring....so much so, that I will have to increase my therapy sessions to 5 times per week.
It has been my experience with silver plated copper wire (Cardas) that if used in just the right spot ( I like it in input, and speakers ), the sound can retain the detail so correct to me. No doubt, I will like it more and more as I age.
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Hey Greg - I cant disagree with the rude and boring part... I work hard at that! With that said, its good that you are getting the therapy you so desperately need. The 'family' and I have been discussing that lately. There was some talk about an 'intervention'.
As far as the silver plated copper, I have the feeling that going with a good brand (ex. Cardas) you are probably going to get good results. When it comes to wires, IMO it pays to worship the right god, even if your offering costs you more money. I have little doubt that your Cardas sounds as good as my JPS Labs. There, I hope that makes you feel better!
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Somehow, the contents of this thread got me thinking about Beavis and Butthead do America. The scene where they meet the two roadies, I just can't decide who is Beavis or who is Butthead. My first vote would be Eric as Beavis, I could see Eric hopped up on espresso doing the whole Cornholio bit.
Cheers,
Shawn
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LOL!!!
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I know who Bevis and Butthead are, I don't know which is which, so I can't give a knowledgeable opinion. Does Eric's avatar help? Greg's is still a mystery to me. I know it is a crow, nothing more. Does that sound close enough to "nevermore"?)
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"Shut UP Beavis" Uh,,heh-heh-heh
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I can recommend Cardas(difficult to work with but, sounds great) and Kimber 4TC as two very good choices. They sound great and are very clear. Others often are just too bright. Pick your poison! ;D
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I have to admit, I'm a bit intimidated by wire! It think because its an intangible. Its a bit like religion, or quantum mechanics.
I read a fair amount of reviews about 'high end' wire, and I'm usually a bit overwhelmed. It appears that there is some very 'worthwhile' super expensive stuff out there. I would probably never part with that kind of cash for wire, but there are many who do. I, of course, like any red-blooded audiophile want a piece of the action. I think I have accumulated enough 'data' in my head to have a general idea about what brands tend to have a very high reputation for 'value' and 'quality'. I still dont trust myself enough to part with the 'real' cash that is required to get into the rarefied air of ultra high end cabling. My town (Tucson) doesnt have the dealer support for loaners. Probably just as well..
Maybe when I'm retired, and if I have any hearing left, I will go off the deep end and play around with various alloys and test for sound quality. Just like the guys from Metrum Audio. They tested DAC chips ad nausium until they found one that sounded good.
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Eric,
Don't wait for retirement the pay sucks.
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Well, I already picked two cups, the 16 gauge cotton insulated wire and the 13 gauge stranded wire (Madisound if memory serves, getting old when you are struggling to remember what you just bought). So that stuff is bought, here, and ready for use. The plan, at the moment, is to use the 13 gauge PVC jacket in the speakers and the cotton in the crossovers and then maybe swap out some wire in the amp. But I may use the cotton in the speakers as well if it looks like I have enough. I don't know, guess we'll see what I do when I get there.
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Granger - you got a point there!
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I use a 16AWG solid core copper wire with polyethylene insulation which I get from Danny Richie of GR Research. It's cheap, easy to strip, bend, shape and as far as I can tell sounds good.
Looks like this:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2Fx-ls%2520upgrades%2FIMG_2157.jpg&hash=a14f434361e427fc26000a0c91de6c2a639945a2)
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http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#introduction
i am not trying to start a row-i use somewhat expensive hookup wire but regular speaker wire-from radio shack-
for me the jury is still out on wire-but roger russell is/was one of the forces behind mcintosh-he has humor and pragmatism
http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm
another fun read
love and kisses--howie
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Eric, I suggest barbed wire for your rig
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The question remains, are you brothers?
John
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Some funny stuff in that article. But then Russell seems to become the guy he makes fun of. How come when guys say "all amplifiers sound the same" they never mention the speakers used or the room treatment? Then he says, "well I can hear differences but it's entirely the digital filter that sounds different, not my amp". So one piece of audio gear can sound different from model to model but not another.
I'm pretty sure I could come up with a speaker and room so incoherent that every amp would sound identical through it. Can't hear the difference between an amp with a damping factor of 10 and one with a damping factor of 1000? Really? Then why have we tuned the Q of our speakers for a low damping factor amp and not only heard but measured an extra half octave of bass extension with a low damping factor amp connected to it? PJ can show you the math behind it.
There are no doubt a lot of things that we fool ourselves into hearing, and I may have started some of the fantasies myself. But some of this stuff is pretty straightforward if you understand the physics behind it and what to listen for.
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There you go man, we do fool ourselves into believing, regardless of facts(that either matter or not). What sounds right to us, sounds right JUST to us sometimes. There is no shame in that. Working here,the local college, I often get into discussions with the students about what sounds good to them. Yah, I can't believe what I am hearing sometimes, but then remember what I thought was so great at that time in my life.
I believe wire, caps and all the rest have an effect, but cannot eclipse the room we listen in or the ears we have to work with.
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. . . I'm pretty sure I could come up with a speaker and room so incoherent that every amp would sound identical through it. . . .
That would be Julian Hirsch's lab.
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Hey Greg (bro) I can dig where your coming from, but I think there is (are) reasons for why we think (feel) that we like sound 'A' over sound 'B'. I do believe they can be isolated and bottled. Nobody likes pain when they listen (harshness, hard dynamics), and nobody likes mud (distortion, jitter, blurring of notes, etc.). Digital has much of the above if not done right. Analog tends to not have as much of those unless the amplification path is not right. Both conditions are common in audio playback. I believe that good sound to Joe Blow is good sound to Joe Goldenear. The big question is: how to get it, and how much does it cost.
With the huge generalities aside, there are a huge number of variables in the path from 'A' to 'B'. Ok so where am I going with this...Oh, ok, so we have the audiophile axiom 'everything makes a difference'. I didnt coin that phrase. I do believe it though. Now for example, if barbed wire sounds 'good' then it sounds good. I'm not sure it does. I dont know if anyone has ever listened to it. It seems that it would not sound good, but you dont know. Until someone tries it.
Thats were crazy people (like you and I - lets be honest), come in. Look I'm from upstate NY. Right there I have the credentials for being an audio 'eccentric'. Thats the kind of person(s) that wonder what CAN be. Anyway, let know what you know about the barbed wire thing...
Yours - Eric
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That would be Julian Hirsch's lab.
Ah yes, JH land, where everything is delightful.
Eric(bra), Get it out man. Mom raised us better than that, 'everything makes a difference' stuff. Right down to the dust on the cabinet? Cut the cord, draw the line, imagine whirled peas, but don't forget reality....we're a bunch of old guys....with great wisdom and burnt ears. Experience is what you got when there is nothing left. Yet, I STILL LOVE THE HOBBY. YES, IDO
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Dude that heavy!... I think I just saw God!
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So now you admit to being twin sons of different mothers?
Julian Hirsch never met a piece of electronics he didn't like even if the tests proved it to be a POS. On the other hand he swore that all amplifiers sounded alike. I say that most all of them amplify, that is similar.
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Well, more like identical strangers, born on the same day, in the same room, but different mothers, possibly in different dimensions.
JH never met Johnzer speakers...
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Since it came up a couple of times in the thread, I've been thinking a bit about barbed wire as speaker cable and would there be any benefit to using it.
Most modern barbed wire appears to be a twisted pair of uninsulated steel with barbs made of the same steel wrapped around it at intervals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbed_wire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbed_wire)
Steel is usually considered a no no for audio but has anybody actually tried listening to it? Of course the resistance of steel is much higher than copper but for short distances, the actual difference is small. Using a larger wire gauge for the steel would obviously lessen the difference in resistance.
Obviously the steel wire would need to be insulated but insulated steel is available.
I am open to the idea that a copper cable would sound different to a steel cable, but in a blind test would I say the copper was better?
And finally, the barbs which appear to be a short wire wrapped around the main wire at intervals. There is a school of thought that says that your speaker cables should be raised above the floor. Barbed wire would do this for you. I don't know what the distance is supposed to be but if you built your own cable, you could create bigger barbs than usual.
And of course, since the barbs are sharp, any badness coming from your amplifier to your speakers will ooze out at the sharp points leaving you with the best sounding speaker cables ever!!
I'll have to make a pair and take them to our Bottleneck meeting later this year to try them out. I think it will be held in Sterling VA.
ray
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Not too surprisingly, I found what appears to be steel wire in an S400 Threshold amp. Maybe they were trying out that theory. I have wanted to use something evil to keep people away from my fragile speaker cones! They are like magnets to the curious. Speakers wrapped in barbed wire( being used as speaker cable, why hasn't Coconut Audio thought of this?), hmmmm.
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Ray - Nicely presented. I few tweaks and I think you have a 'white paper'. -)
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Steve and I have started to set up our next meet on the last weekend of October and we have decided it will focus on diy speaker cables.
I will start another thread to discuss how we will do this but my initial thoughts are that each of us who brings cables will bring two pair of cables. They will need to be exactly the same except for one parameter.
For example, same copper, same gauge, same topology, same length, different insulation. We would then do a blind test to see if we can hear a difference.
Of course I will be bring the barbed wire version.
ray
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Steel wool speaker wire, no, no Copper wool speaker wire. Man, I got ideas not proven to be bad until tried. Our assumptions often trumph our progress.
Speaker wire can be quite honest if simply made. I was amazed how well the flat braided RS speaker wire sounded.
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Since it came up a couple of times in the thread, I've been thinking a bit about barbed wire as speaker cable and would there be any benefit to using it. . . .
ray
I can see two advantages of this.
1) a very large friend of mine feels the need to step over my amps which are between the speakers. It would deter him as I have never been able to do.
2) the two new kittens would stop chewing on my speaker wire.
See my listening room here:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1251.0.html
I miss those loafers, they were comfortable!
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I was thinking of trying some .750 or 1" fused disk, twisted. May need to clamp it to an airplane propellar to get it twisted though. I wonder if General Cable still makes the stuff. Mostly air dielectric, should work well for interconnects, maybe speaker too ;D
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Desmond,
I have some fused disks but I don't think they are conductive at all.
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Now I am convinced! You guys are WAY frickin out of control!
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Yeah, and I know who those guy's are. Just sayin ;D
John "the old fogie" Roman
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Yeah I know John! Like I say, everyone is crazy except for you and me, and sometimes I wonder about you!
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Hey Grainger, I have a fused disc (along with some titanium to go with it) myself. The nightmare that sums up that 2 year ordeal is probably why I spell everything "disc" related with a C instead of a K regardless of which is correct. I think the cable was actually Fused Disk as opposed to Disc. Ive corrected that above. Beyond that ... disk or disc ... who knows. ???