Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Doc B. on April 03, 2013, 04:55:00 PM
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It has been amazingly busy here lately, for which I am so grateful to everyone who participates. It's gotta be the nicest bunch of people on a forum anywhere. You guys deserve the credit for that.
With the increased amount of activity I'm seeing a lot of posts about modifying our kits. Go for it - we have always supported experimentation. But I must admit I am a little taken aback by the lack of rigor in the mods and experiments. To wit, you cannot possibly know if cap A is better than cap B if you only installed and listened to cap A! Likewise, you can't assume that we can tell you that the cap you found that is a screaming deal is blessed by us if we haven't tried it. Shoot, ask the cap dealer to send me a pair. I'll try them and if I like them he will probably sell a shit ton.
The comment that I see often - "well, I know I should build it stock but I only want to do it once with this other part"... dude! Take some responsibility! If no one else has tried it, build the thing stock, swap in the part, and let us know if it works or if it sucks! You will rise in the ranks here quickly. We're talking about a few minutes of diddling with a soldering iron.
We've been doing this a while. We do believe that parts changes make a difference. We also believe that thoughtful circuit design trumps boutique parts changes (note I did not say "upgrades"). And sometimes we choose parts because they're the best sounding part we could find for the job. An example would be the new BeeQuiet attenuator for the BeePre. We did some homework on that one. Find something that sounds better in that circuit than we supply and I will be all ears.
Also, please put the whole system in perspective. If you are using an iPhone for your source and the system is shoved in the corner of your room that has one wall of floor to ceiling windows and the left speaker is in the broom closet, ferchrissakes, don't buy $1500 of capacitors for your Quickie, set the system up right with a cheap music server and get some room treatment. Always keep the return for the investment in mind. I've seen guys win best of sound at an audio show by hanging a couple of cheap Ikea rugs on the side walls to make their hotel room work better than the guy next door with $250K worth of cables and bare walls.
OK, rant over. The enthusiasm these days is awesome. Keep trying things and learning, that's what it's all about. And please help move the whole community forward by sharing your thorough explorations of your mods!
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What a great rant, I mean post Doc! I totally agree that a good solid design is more important than "boutique parts". One of the things I like about Bottlehead is that there is a sensible (and affordable) approach to excellent sound based on solid design concepts. Also, being in the psychology racket, I am aware how easy it is to convince ourselves about what we are hearing, especially when we spend a ton of money on an "upgrade".
You do of course realize that you cater to a bunch of gear heads that are here because we are never quite satisfied with anything!
Keep up the great work, I am personally planning on buying and building more of this stuff and then spending more money on silly purchases trying to make it better than it already is.
drew.
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I'm with Dan. I built my Eros stock and started inserting tweaks slowly. I listened to 3 or 4 caps on jumpers to decide which sounded best. I wanted to learn the differences.
Many of these things are a matter of preference. So one mans "Ultra" component might not light your fire. Only you can make this decision.
I really like the idea of having the seller send Dan a pair for tryout. I know he would get a kick from it and he has pretty good ears. After all he has voiced the kits and his personal system.
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Well said Dan!
I totally agree you have no idea what the changes you make will do without a baseline to start from. Build it stock first for a baseline and then make changes. I wouldn't know how good my BeePre sounded with the BeeQuiet if I had not built it stock first.
I still amazed on how different capacitors can influence the sound, something you can only truly appreciate by systematic experimentation.
This experimentation is one of the things that make this hobby fun!
Have fun
Deb
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Great post (or rant, if you wish!). I've been a working EE for almost 30 years now and have learned the hard way more than once that good design and a methodical, step-by-step approach to change trumps firing off blindly in all directions every time! I'm all for mods and experimentation, but like Doc, I want to know that there is some level of thought in the process.
Cheers
SteveH
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I am greatful to Bottlehead for well designed products. They are not only well enginered, but sound great to boot. I am always singing the praises of such a wonderful company. Keep it up Bottlehead crew.
Bernie.
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Dan,
Great post and points taken. I am sometiimes guilty of this as charged, but I'm also usually fairly careful to point out that these are my preferences and may not work for others with different rooms, listening sensibilities, etc.
This truly is one of the great audio hangouts online anywhere and you deserve a ton of credit for that.
-- Jim
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2+ to the above - and well said Dan. I cant agree more with the 'build it stock first' adage.
If you are thinking that you have these big honkin caps to fit in and you dont want to move stuff around to make them fit, then you just run some longer wire to place the caps in a different location. The beauty of having a longer lead wire is that you can more easily sub in different caps for comparison. Personally, thats why I use solid silver wire. It gets me off the obsession of worrying about the length of wire as a factor. IMO its immaterial. Point to point wiring is far better than a printed circuit any day. Feel good about it - give yourself some space to experiment. Then, as Dan said, report back to us so we can continue our obsession as well. Dont keep it to yourself!
peace, love, granola, flux - Eric
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It's true that you never know how things will work out. When I changed from the stock caps in my original Quickie to Sonicaps at first I liked it but after a while I still felt it could be improved. I tried Clarity Cap ESA and while they improved some aspects they warmed up the treble region a little too much for my tastes. Then I tried the MR series and was floored by their performance. My ultimate quickie was built around them and I'm still enjoying them in that role.
I took a similar route with my Sex Amp. But in that instance the MR caps did not match well with my AKG702's. I got a taste of what the words "Ruthlessly revealing" meant and it was not good. I went back to the ESA caps and find that combo to be much more enjoyable to listen to.
I've had similar experiences tweaking the caps in my speakers. Synergy is the key. And not to lose sight of the original topic I still appreciate the value of the stock kits. I was just thinking the other day about returning my original quickie back to stock form.
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I have to agree with you on the ClarityCap MRs. I now have them in my Paramounts and my BeePre. They are some of the most transparent caps I have used, and sound very good new, not broken in. I prefer how they sound better than the Mundorfs and they are less expensive. A conclusion I never would have come to without a baseline and changing one variable at a time.
Deb
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I've built my equipment both ways, stock and with upgrades. Most cases I have built them stock and upgraded after to try see if I can improve over the stock. On some of the kits it is a bit of a pain to get the iron in without burning something. There has been a few times where I have had to get in a crazy position to be able to get the iron in position and hold the solder and part, all at the same time, kind of like twister. What I have found is that the design of the Bottlehead kits and the parts used are well thought out and provide great performance and when I do make changes such as replacing a cap with something more exotic the improvement is usually subtle. The biggest improvements I have found are in upgrading the power supply, through the CCCS and shuntreg kits.
Also, for me I like getting under the hood and making changes, so building stock just gives me another opportunity. To each his own.
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Interesting takes on the MR's. There are not a ton of reviews out there on them so its interesting to hear about bottleheaders experiences with them. It seems we are due for another cap 'shootout' at some point.
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The most pronounced upgrade I ever made to my system was a stuffed sofa and thick curtains in my listening room!
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The most pronounced upgrade I ever made to my system was a stuffed sofa and thick curtains in my listening room!
...and the wife gets to pick them out...WIN/WIN!!! ;D
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+1 on the MR caps. I had built my Quickie stock (with PJCCS) and then put in the MRs. Better sound stage, imaging and details. Well worth the upgrade cost. I am super happy with it.
Michael
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I just got back from South America and discovered Pisco Sours, which I had several of tonight.
Anyway I have noticed a somewhat philosophical point that I think could be addressed. As your kits get more sophisticated and frankly better, they also become less accessible to experimentation. The kits you produce sound as good or better than anything available at any price, which is great. We DIY'ers are feeling a bit squeezed out.
Feeling good and saying more than I probably should.
Michael
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It's a tough balance. But usually things move from the bottom up. That's why there is the Crack, and the Quickie - we do want to keep the bottom end accessible. But yes, SEX became the Stereo SEX (v2.0, now 2.1) and spawned the Paramour now Stereomour, and the original Foreplay became FP-III and now the BeePre - as we learn, and as the community experiments, the designs become more refined.
If you have an idea for a new entry-level product, let us know. We always have a couple on the back burner and we have NOT lost interest in this segment - our ears are open!
Mmmm ... I remember Pisco Sours at the Hotel Bolivar in Lima. I nearly died in Cusco (long story) but some great memories at this distance in time!
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Bottlehead is now producing a top of the line and the more basic DIY experimenters kits. The Quickie at $100 is an amazing value that can be tweaked to our hearts' desire. But I know that as the Bottlehead crew progresses with higher priced kits, there will be trickle down upgrades to the DIY price range.
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I say, keep on refining.... Let me guess Paul, after closing the bar with way too many pisco sours, you went on a solo trek at 2 a.m. thinking "I am going to find that damn lost Machu Picchu gold even if it kills me!??"......
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Tube kits are great for simplicity. I havent had the Pisco Sours. Sounds dangerous though. For me the sour drinks are way too easy.