Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Downhome Upstate on June 02, 2013, 06:09:09 AM
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I'm thinking about making up some interconnect with Neotech UP-OCC copper cable (NEI-3002, $11.95/ft at Sonic Craft), and want to keep the price of the finished product reasonable. Cardas has some affordable RCA plugs and jacks. What's your experience with the sound of gold vs. rhodium over silver plate?
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My personal opinion is that less matters about the connecting material,within reason, than the completeness of the connection itself. The conductors however, may be of more consideration overall. Cardas doesn't seem to put out poor products to begin with, so I would not hesitate to buy what was offered on sale.
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I agree with master Greg. I think you can generalize that a pure copper or silver plug with your coating du jour will do the job. Most RCA sockets are made of brass with a gold coating.
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In my experience the coating is way less important than the base metal.
Brass being my least favorite sounding.
The coatings are generally applied for corrosion resistance and while the can effect the sound a bit, cannot make up for a brass base.
IMO if you are going to she'll out $12 a foot for good occ cable, putting a brass plug on the end of it kind of defeats the purpose.
As stated above however, the best materials with a poor connection will sound no matter what.
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Here's my chance to ring the silver bell! - I sleep well with silver. Ag20 is conductive. Of course Gold doesnt react at all. Cu2O is not conductive. Gold doesnt conduct as well as either copper or silver, with silver being the best.
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Cardas applies plating of gold or rhodium over silver on a substrate of eutectic brass. He uses this construction even on their top of the line SRCA's. I can't believe that he'd put those connectors on their best interconnect if the alloy + plating impaired conductivity or screwed-up the signal. He's built his reputation on clean and coincident signal propogation, nu?
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I know what you mean Mike, its a bit baffling! The tip off to me is that brass is not used ANYWHERE else in audiophiledome, to my knowledge! It makes no sense to use it, unless its easier, or some other reason. Maybe the metallurgy folks can chime in here!
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Using copper Base for Rca's is a great way to go. I have had wonderful sucess with using WBT topline Rca's which are copper base, and also Eichman bullet copper, and even silver ones. At $12 a foot for cable, I would go with Copper Rca's.
Bernie.
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Brass is used, because it is easy to form, easy to plate and not too expensive...John
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Using copper Base for Rca's is a great way to go. I have had wonderful sucess with using WBT topline Rca's which are copper base, and also Eichman bullet copper, and even silver ones. At $12 a foot for cable, I would go with Copper Rca's.
Bernie.
I understand, but the WBT stuff is sky high. I guess I could do a set of Eichmann Bullet Plugs, tho'. (When I was looking at the Cardas connectors, I was thinking more of the $3.95 a foot economy Neotech 3004 wire: still OCC, albeit with less effective shielding).
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Hey Mike - WBT is attractive, but as you say, sky high prices! I just got some nice sockets from HiFi Collective in the UK. They cost me about $50 USD for 4 solid copper with silver plate. Just got them yesterday. Very heavy, quality feel to them.
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/
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Hey Mike - WBT is attractive, but as you say, sky high prices! I just got some nice sockets from HiFi Collective in the UK. They cost me about $50 USD for 4 solid copper with silver plate. Just got them yesterday. Very heavy, quality feel to them.
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/
Great source, Eric. Thanks!
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I am a fan on the teflon RCAs from audiothrills. Relatively inexpensive, east to work with and sound very good.
Also a fan of the bullet plugs. About twice the price of the audiothrills.
BTW I think Cardas connectors sound horrible. Really, really horrible. The generic radio shack RCAs sound better to me. They do make some good wire though. They use gold/rhodium plated brass because it is super cheap, looks good, doesn't tarnish and they can sell it for a lot of money.
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I think that many of us think that the materials are important. Some seem to believe that the material imparts a sound of its own, like capacitor dielectrics or interconnect wire.
What I think we all believe is that an oxidization on connectors is bad (except for silver or 24K gold {which is not, to my knowledge, used}). There is an industry built around cleaning your RCA jacks and plugs.
I spent New Years Eve 1999 cleaning all my system contacts hoping that I would have electricity after midnight. My wife was overseeing the transition as part of the Y2k Police for IBM.
From Wikipedia the four highest conductivities:
Silver 1.59X10-8 (pico ohms/meter)
Copper 1.68X10−8
Annealed Copper 1.72X10−8
Gold 2.44X10−8
Aluminum 2.82X10−8
This is not the order I remember from Physics, but that was a long time ago, I may not remember properly.
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Hmmm, since we used lead based solder, I wonder about the conductivity of lead.
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I just found this - kind of interesting..
http://store.curiousinventor.com/guides/how_to_solder/kind_of_solder/
"Silver bearing solder: (that is, contains silver, not for roller bearings) Silver is used in one of the leading alloys for lead free solder (An96.5% Ag3.0% Cu.5%) and also as an addition to tin-lead solder, usually in the 2-4% range (when you se 62/36/2 this means Sn64Pb36Ag2).
People claim that it flows better, has a lower melting point, is stronger, and has a higher conductivity. According to Indium's solder wire data sheet, their 2% silver solder has an electrical conductivity that is 11.9% of Cu compared to 11.5% of 63/37 tin-lead solder, a shear strength of 7540psi vs. 6200psi, and a tensile strength of 7000psi vs. 7500psi for 63/37. So, yes, the claims are true, and also mostly insignificant. Silver was initially added to solder to prevent silver platings on component leads from dissolving into the solder ("silver migration") and forming brittle joints. Having silver in the solder reduces migration, so you may want to use it on silver joints. (Note: this logic doesn't entirely make sense to me. If silver getting in the solder caused embrittlement, how does adding more silver prevent this?)
Audiophiles seem to be enamored by 4% silver bearing solder, namely some from WBT, Cardas, and WonderSolder. Are these really better for audio?
The superior claims include things like higher purity, eutectic alloys, higher conductivity, and better flux. I haven't found any controlled studies showing that a group of people can actually hear the difference, so I'm skeptical. Although additional silver does increase conductivity, the increase is small and the joint distance over which that conductivity applies is also extremely small. For what it's worth, here's a forum discussion that discusses a bit about solder in high-end audio and also a FAQ (scroll down)concerning solder on Cardas Audio's site. Another decent discussion.
Bad joints made with any solder can create a high-resistance connection, especially if the underlying components were heavily oxidized initially. My advice: if it makes you feel better, get it, but be wary of sellers that don't provide spec sheets."
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Annnnd, were baaack to connnecTIONS!(spoken like at a boxing match). So, as Grainger once said, make a good mechanical connection before soldering. I totally agree with this idea. It is not always possible, but even then, I like the wire to be touching the connection, and not relying solder to hold it in place. Having said all that, solder is what we got most of the time to make a connection with. Suffice it to say that the joint needs to be clean before you worry about the chemistry of the solder.
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We are supposed to get a good mechanical connection then solder it to keep it in place. As much as I used to believe it solder is not electrical glue.
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Hmmm, but I've seen folks elsewhere take the opposite position, i.e., that the best connection is the best mechanical one (crimping with the kind of force that produces a 'cold weld', without solder.) Is that just the cable manufacturers bragging on their hydraulic crimp presses?
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I have not listened for differences in connector materials. Not sure I could hear any.
I have been building interconnects with Eichmann plugs because they have small conductors.
Hardly makes sense to use 28 ga. wire (VH Audio Spectrum) and then drop the signal onto a huge block of metal.
I've grown to despise locking RCA jacks and stiff, heavy wire. And these sound fine to my ears. YMMV.IMHO, etc.
Kevin
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I usta use one of those hydraulic crimpers at work. It work produce 14 metric tons of pressure! Once, it locked upright in the middle of a crimp. I was thinking maybe I could just a couple hundred rolls of tape and hide it, but quality inspectors are so friggin picky. Like they know so much. Point is, you might get the crimper off the half crimped cable, but it will take a saw to get even a half crimped crimp off the cable! Pretty freakin good connection I'd say. With the right connecters and tools, I do believe that it is possible to do just fine.
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I usta use one of those hydraulic crimpers at work. It work produce 14 metric tons of pressure! Once, it locked upright in the middle of a crimp. I was thinking maybe I could just a couple hundred rolls of tape and hide it, but quality inspectors are so friggin picky. Like they know so much. Point is, you might get the crimper off the half crimped cable, but it will take a saw to get even a half crimped crimp off the cable! Pretty freakin good connection I'd say. With the right connecters and tools, I do believe that it is possible to do just fine.
Watch your fingers!
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Silver was initially added to solder to prevent silver platings on component leads from dissolving into the solder ("silver migration") and forming brittle joints. Having silver in the solder reduces migration, so you may want to use it on silver joints. (Note: this logic doesn't entirely make sense to me. If silver getting in the solder caused embrittlement, how does adding more silver prevent this?)
While I don't know the specific metallurgical/embrittlement reaction taking place there, atomic diffusion/migration of any sort is usually unwanted. I would imagine for silver plating which is very thin that this could affect the adhesion of the plating to the base metal as well. Any sort of concentration gradient can also lead to unwanted microstructures developing. Having the silver content in the solder in the first place would be enough to minimize diffusion (and my guess is that the unwanted stuff was happening in the 1-3% range anyways, so if the solder is at 4% then there's nothing to worry about... and a quick glance at a silver-lead phase diagram shows the eutectic point at 4.5% Ag, so there's that).
Hmmm, but I've seen folks elsewhere take the opposite position, i.e., that the best connection is the best mechanical one (crimping with the kind of force that produces a 'cold weld', without solder.) Is that just the cable manufacturers bragging on their hydraulic crimp presses?
Well the best connection really is no connection, so an actual weld would be most ideal. I don't know if a crazy hydraulic press would necessarily be the best method though. I imagine a spot welder would do the trick as well.
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So, FWIW, based on Eric's tip I picked up "high-quality copper" rhodium plated RCA jacks from hificollective.com for $26.64 a pop (they look well-made), and Cardas CCRR-S silver & rhodium plated copper billet dual binding posts for $52.49 ea. (good price, BTW). Finishing-off the connector round-up were 3 sets of Neotech DG-203 gold-plated OFC copper RCA plugs from pcx. They discounted them 20% to $40/pr., pretty hard to beat if you don't need plugs able to accept larger wire (using Belden 89207 twinax, which is less than 7 mm o.d.).
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Hey Mike - I did get those sockets installed by the way. As far as 'sound', Thats a bit hard to say. What I think I am noticing is a slight lack of 'harshness' and a bit better and bigger staging. They seem to just get out of the way. Not as big of a difference than say a tube roll or a cap change. Well worth it though IMO, although if they cost $200 for the set of 4 I'm not sure they would be worth that much.
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Eric,
I 'hear' you. I doubt I'll be able to tell the difference by substituting well-made connectors with better materials. What the heck. I thought it probably couldn't hurt while I was inside the Seduction changing coupling and output caps (not to mention replacing one of those tiny little 1 uf 50 v ceramic caps on the tube socket that I snipped by accident while trimming the lead on a resistor. Its still connected, but only by a solder blob).
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Well, wrong again. Replaced the stock RCA jacks with the copper/rhodium stuff from hifi collective, and I can hear the difference. Much better contact has got to have something to do with it (one pair of the stock jacks had an intermittent loose center pin connector that was a real pain in the ass). I'm hearing better leading edges, more clarity overall. So I didn't waste the money after all. Go figure.
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Hmm, I thought that I might be the only one who was critical of the loose connection of the original jacks. I found the same thing. And the new connectors have a great center pin grip. That is the one that counts most.