Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: danosol on June 23, 2013, 05:59:39 PM
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Do USB cable make a difference when used with a DAC? I've read yes and no. I just want to know what you guys think.
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I think that one has been pretty much laid to rest, and the answer is - most definitely! Gordan Rankin of Wavelength audio was one of the first 'pioneers' of USB to notice the effect of USB cable on sound quality. Fortunately for us, there are now many good options for high end USB cables at 'affordable' prices. I went with audioquest just because they reviewed well and had an affordable entry level. The funny thing is, I ordered a 15ft Forest from The Cable Company, and since they didnt have one in stock, they sent me a Carbon for no extra cost. I can dig that. I wouldnt have paid that much for a USB cable, but it does sound good. Buy it once and forget about it.
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Cool. Was thinking about getting a 2.5 ft forest. Would that be sufficient or should I go with the cinnamon ( I think that's what it's called) which is the next step up.
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I have never been able to swallow the idea that a digital cable matters to sound quality, provided it meets the minimum standards for the signal/cable format. Theoretically, a cable could matter every once in a blue moon at the margins, and prevent an isolated 0 from being read as a 1, but my understanding is that most digital signals have error correction built in, and the odds of that stray "0" or "1" being audible are about as close to zero as you can get.
I'm open to counter-arguments, but I am deeply, deeply dubious. My own, personal, empirical tests haven't shown any differences, either.
In any case, I can namely roughly a million things you would be better off spending that money on...
Now, that said, it doesn't bother me if others choose to spend their money on high-end USB cables, and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on this subject. I only chimed in because the OP was soliciting views.
Best regards,
Adam
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Thanks Adam. I'm definitely going to think about this. Hopefully a friend of mine at a local Hi-Fi shop will let me try one out so I can make an educated decision.
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I began an IT career (Data Processing) in 1974. I too thought the digital cable between my CD player and new outboard DAC could make no difference. 1's and 0's.
That was the biggest sonic change(benefit!) of any cable in my system. I didn't have to believe it, I could easily hear it.
I've used the Cable Company over the years so I could have the chance of listening to cables in my system in my room. Sent many back and purchased the few that were excellent. A good way to learn IMHO.
-Kevin
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Yep, The Cable Company folks are great. They also give good discounts if you order there frequently.
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Yes, most definitely cables in the digital realm can matter, and here's why...
In terms of digital audio, consumer level interfaces such as spdif, firewire, thunderbolt, and usb protocols do *not* have robust error detection and correction protocols. So I like to think of these all as *hail mary* interfaces* -- they carry the data from the computer or serverr to the dac, and you hope that what was sent is what got to the other end. So some of the tools designers use to get that as good as possible are good quality conductors and shielding, proper end to end impedance characteristics, good quality connections, separate power and signal runs, etc. And on the computer or server side, good quality power supplies that give as clean a ground signal as is possible, galvanic isolation, and so on.
The last place in the chain where you can count on the data being exactly equal to what was on the disc drive is in the computer's buffer memory, and probably (but not always) in the usb ports i/o buffer. These pathways do have robust error detection and correction protocols in place. Note, this is why I think bit-perfect lights on dacs are silly -- we haven't yet invented the pre-cognitive chipset. So probably the bit-perfect lights are there to tell you that what came in on the usb receiver is what made it to the dac, but there is no guarantee that that was what was in memory. Asynch or not also only helps the possibillity that things will transfer more cleanly but again does not guarantee anything.
So, yes, better cables, especially when used on better dacs can and do make a difference.
-- Jim
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Unlike analog, this should be measurable. Are the same 0s and 1s that are sent on one end appearing on the other? Yes or no. Isn't it that simple? And aren't there studies to show this one way or the other?
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This is one of those subjects where we will all have to agree to disagree. My only advice is to trust your ears. That being said, here is my opinion. I was fortunate to be in a position to try a few different USB cables in my system. Here is what I concluded. A $35 cable did indeed sound better than a generic $4 USB hard drive cable. But a premium $550 cable sounded about the same as the $35 cable to my ears. Again, that is my opinion and you know what they say about opinions. ;)
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For myself, I think it falls into the realm of things we don't know we don't know.
The 1's and 0's are indeed highly reliable; otherwise we'd have problems loading new software all the time. So I seriously doubt that the observed sonic differences are due to failure of the digits. At one time, it looked like jitter was a good explanation - when we "discovered" it. Now there are too many solutions to the jitter question, that are not correlated well to the sonic effects. I'm confident we'll "discover" a few more things someday, we just don't know what they are yet.
Some have proposed subtle modulations of the power supplies, affected by jitter upstream of the re-clocking. It's plausible I guess - power supply improvements are almost always sonic positives.
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Very interesting replies. Hearing will always be believing, whether placebo or not. Sometimes you want it to sound better to justify the purchase.
I have some old Audioquest RCA's lying around (Ruby's and Jades) from the mid 90's, now I'm sure technology has changed a bit on cables since then, but these were kinda pricey for a guy in his mid twenties back then.
I implemented these cables in my current system with my Crack and compared them to my mogami home built cables terminated with Canare ends. I thought for sure the Audioquest cables would sound better as they were professionally assembled and cost more even back then compared to what I paid for my home built RCA's. Well, I prefer the cables that I built and my least favorite are the Ruby's which were the most expensive out of the bunch (probably a sound signature preference I'm sure).
I know that this doesn't correlate to the USB discussion as much, but I think what Natural Sound says holds a lot of credo with me. When do you say when, or how deep are your pockets. Does a $500 USB cable really outclass a $35 cable. Personally for me even if there was a difference it would have to be significant for me to even consider that kind cash on a USB cable, or any cable for that matter.
I guess get the best you can, for what is within your means. I just wasn't sure, like others, as to the viability and siginificance of high end USB Cables.
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There are what I find to be quite obvious differences in the sonic changes imparted by cables. I'm not sure why some people can't hear them, but it may have to do with system resolution. And price has absolutely nothing to do with the differences. Some of the worst cables I've heard were the most expensive.
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My recommendation is to buy nothing to begin with. The Cable Company will lend you 3 o 4 cables for 30 days with a deposit. The deposit goes toward a purchase from them.
This method of testing cables turns expectation bias on its ear IMHO. I never want the expensive cable to sound best. I want the underdog to win and save some bucks. And, like Doc says, that happens. I have often sent them all back because none of them sounded correct in my system.
This is where synergy wins out. You will know it when you hear it. I also never try out cables that are way beyond my budget. I do not want the temptation.
-Kevin
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I've got to chime in here to say that again, my opinion is that connection made by the cable ends has as much to do with the final result as anything. I know this from using one cable that had insufficient connection to my cable box. After buying a better cable, problem was solved. Beyond that, when it comes to the (digital) cable itself, I can't say that I have much reason to believe it could a notable difference. Maybe I should test my theory be fore spewing it out. Analog, well, that's quite a different story.
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For myself, I think it falls into the realm of things we don't know we don't know. . . .
This should be a thread.
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Well I got an open box buy at a local Hi-Fi shop on the Forest USB Cable and I get 15 days to try it and return it if I don't like it.
Doc regarding price your statement couldn't be more true. It certainly was in my case.
Grainger I think it should be too.
You know what, thank God we don't all hear things the same. How boring would that be. Thanks to all for the posters as this certainly helps people in making educated and well thought out decisions. It's easy to get carried away when your excited about new gear and what might be out there to improve a persons system.
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It's good they give you 15 days - take your time with it
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For just about any kind of cable, certainly for all digital cables, I have switched to Blue Jeans Cable. "Contact Us" has BJC located in Seattle, thus pretty much next door to Bottlehead.
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/data-cables/index.htm
Their prices are very reasonable, build quality is excellent, shipping is quick and reliable. For all I can tell their cables are superb cables.
The usual disclaimer: ..... .
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I've tried the Blue Jeans coax cable but still prefer my homegrown braided silver cable. The BJ cable seemed a bit soft dynamically and the bass wasn't as good as my cable.
I've only recently been using the USB input on my V-DAC Mk2 and got a Pangea USB-AG at sale price. Haven't compared it to any others but I've been loving the HD Tracks I've bought. 8)
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I can see how the homegrown silver would sound like you describe. That has been my experience with silver. I buy my bulk wire from them as well. It can also show off the warts in your system as well.
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I really don't have any warts in my main rig. I don't have the ultimate resolution either but what I got keeps me happy.
The last time I've heard warts was when I had MR caps in my Sex amp. Whew! That was ruthlessly revealing!
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The Blue Jeans stuff is fantastic though for the money. I have a pair of balanced analog interconnects from them. They sound very acceptable, but compared to JPS Labs they are not as transparent.
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I have built some Blue Jeans cables on their designs and they are good, but they do not compare to my current Mogami build.
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Eric, I will use them to the last minute. :D
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Just to clarify, my point was limited to digital cables, not analog cables.
And I use, and love, Blue Jeans Cables. But I don't think they make their own USB cables --- because they don't think there is any point. They just sell pre-manufactured USB cables. To my knowledge, that is the only cable they sell that they don't make themselves.
Lastly, if a digital cable isn't transmitting the signal properly, I would expect to hear either (a) nothing or (b) random static/noise. I wouldn't expect it to affect only one part of the spectrum, nor would I expect the effect to be consistent. This is why I have trouble understanding how it is possible that people can report things like "deeper, tighter bass" or "more articulate highs" based on changing a USB cable. If they said, "less noise" or "fewer dropouts", that would make sense.
In any case, in my primary listening rigs, I don't use USB anyway. And without wanting to go into details on my DAC, headphone amps and headphones (just because it is long and tedious), suffice it to say that my system is plenty revealing, and I have tried various digital cables (including higher-end USB cables) without noticing any audible differences.
Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone who has already decided otherwise.
Best regards,
Adam
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Just to clarify I was referring to coax digital cables with my descriptions. SPDIF connections are definitely more suceptible to increased jitter via the cable. My brother being a computer geek refused to believe digital cables could make audible differences. "It's just 1's & 0's!" No, it's not that simple. Timing errors, sampling errors, signal reflections, etc. all do damage to the signal.
I have only tried one USB cable for audio so I can't comment on any possible audible differences. Hmm... I think I have a cheap printer cable laying around somewhere I could compare my Pangea to. A lot has been written about asymetrical USB inputs being superior to standard PC-controlled USB. Clearly nothing is as simple as it seems.
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Well I just AB'd and C'd my Audioquest Forest USB cable with two other cables and there is a difference without a doubt. I'm a bit shocked cause I didn't expect there to be as big a difference as there was. Now mind you it didn't listen for hours cause I was too excited to post about it.
Ironically I think I may like the .5 meter generic cable over the 1.5 meter Audioquest Forest. The Generic cable sounds faster and snappier but at louder volumes is more fatiguing. The Audioquest is warmer. I ditched the other generic cable as it sounded very similar to the .5 meter generic cable. The chain is ALAC through my Mac Mini > Schiit Modi > Crack (Speedball Mod) > HD600. The sound for me lies somewhere in between.
Can someone tell me I have golden ears now ;D. I am a big believer in cables but to a point of diminishing returns and I in no way was expecting this big of a difference from a digital cable . Not sure what the contributing, or lack there of, factors are in the two cables but there is something to it.
One other thing I'm currently using it with my Audioquest Turquoise Interconnects which I do not prefer over my custom made cables. I just haven't had time to make them yet. I have RCA to 1/8". I need to make some all RCA ones.
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"Can someone tell me I have golden ears now . I am a big believer in cables but to a point of diminishing returns and I in no way was expecting this big of a difference from a digital cable . Not sure what the contributing, or lack there of, factors are in the two cables but there is something to it."
I hear you, but it is odd that you hear a difference. The Modi uses asynchronous USB input [like just about all other recent USB DACs]. It is extremely difficult to come up with a reason why the USB cable should make any difference at all in that scenario, certainly on the data side.
The Modi uses the USB cable for power also, not directly, but with some isolation and four internal regulators. Maybe just maybe, the cable makes a difference on the power supply side.
And please realize that I am not disputing what you hear. It's just that USB DACs used to be a disaster until the switch to asynchronous input was made and ever since the USB cable has been on a very long leash so to speak.
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Ironically I think I may like the .5 meter generic cable over the 1.5 meter Audioquest Forest. The Generic cable sounds faster and snappier but at louder volumes is more fatiguing. The Audioquest is warmer. I ditched the other generic cable as it sounded very similar to the .5 meter generic cable. The chain is ALAC through my Mac Mini > Schiit Modi > Crack (Speedball Mod) > HD600. The sound for me lies somewhere in between.
I have experienced the same type of improvement, generally, and the same sort of improvement when I went to battery over USB power for my USB/SPDIF DD converter. Its definately there. Not a game changer IMO. My W4snd DD converter has a switch where I can select either USB or external (battery) power. Sometimes I switch it the wrong way and I end up listening to USB by accident. I can tell something isnt quite right, but I usually dont realize its the switch. Its subtle. At the end of the session I realize the switch was on USB and then I put 2 + 2 together.
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I hear you, but it is odd that you hear a difference. The Modi uses asynchronous USB input [like just about all other recent USB DACs]. It is extremely difficult to come up with a reason why the USB cable should make any difference at all in that scenario, certainly on the data side.
The Modi uses the USB cable for power also, not directly, but with some isolation and four internal regulators. Maybe just maybe, the cable makes a difference on the power supply side.
And please realize that I am not disputing what you hear. It's just that USB DACs used to be a disaster until the switch to asynchronous input was made and ever since the USB cable has been on a very long leash so to speak.
I hear you grufti. I wish I could explain i, because I wan't to understand what the contributing factor is in me hearing the difference. I will probably try other USB cables to see what varying degrees there are. To me it is night and day and at current, I favor the Generic .5 meter USB cable. Although it may be more fatiguing it's much funner to listen to.
I have experienced the same type of improvement, generally, and the same sort of improvement when I went to battery over USB power for my USB/SPDIF DD converter. Its definately there. Not a game changer IMO.
To me the change was to the lesser extent of tube rolling. Now mind you I did swap back and forth a few times to make sure I was hearing what I was hearing. I just didn't expect that big of a change. That being said I would be happy with either cable
I would also like to add that with what I have had to work with in terms of cables the difference in the USB cable made as much of a difference as the improvement (subjective I know) in my interconnect cables.