Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: docbob52 on September 09, 2013, 02:28:46 PM
-
I have built 8 Bottlehead kits and upgrades and I have learned not much more than practicing my soldering. I would love a description of what each component does in the circuits. I think it is time for Dan to provide this and I would be glad to pay extra even in retrospect for this knowledge and for future kits that I will be purchasing shortly. It is not all about attaining great sound at a great price, but learning something along the way. Allied Electronics and especially Heath kit proved great CE and inspired so many future engineers. Time to step up to the plate and do the same.
Sure it is work for you wonderful guys, but I think it will play big returns.
-
I, too, am disappointed with the knowledge gained after constructing my kit. I got great at following instructions and soldering, but didn't get anywhere close to the why behind the what. I would pay extra for detailed explanations as well.
-
Before I had built any Bottlehead kits I had no knowledge of tube electronics design but had taken electronics courses in college. Once I had a kit or two under my belt I read from the firehose of information available on the web including this forum and the older archived Bottlehead forum. With a little bit of searching I can always find more information publicly available that I have time to digest. This website alone should take a few years to get through: http://www.tubebooks.org/index.html (http://www.tubebooks.org/index.html)
-
Interesting topic... From my experience, this is such a HUGE topic, that one needs to take it slow, at ones pace. I have chosen to take it piece by piece. Ex. I have done some reading on how tubes work, etc. I dont feel that it's the responsibility of Bottlehead to educate. Thats my opinion...
-
I am not interested in paying more to educate.
You want to learn electronic theory, take a class.
Read the interwebs. Do it yourself.
-
We attempted to do classes earlier this year. The first class, about reading schematics, was reasonably well attended. The next class about soldering technique was not. And there didn't seem to be any interest in further classes. (NB, interest doesn't mean +1ing someone's post, it means saying "sign me up").
But the OP is asking for descriptions of what each part does, not a class. I have attempted this with a kit manual in the past, damned if I can remember which one. But one of them had discussion of what the parts you were installing did - without writing a text on the subject. I don't know that it would be economically feasible to do this with existing manuals. For the few that suggest they are willing to pay more for some added value there always seem to be hundreds who want us to cut prices to the quick. But we will discuss the idea of doing it in the future.
All that said, there are indeed plenty of resources on the web about what a coupling cap is, how parafeed works, power supply design, etc.
-
Dan, Your classes are a total non event for us here in Alabama and the rest of the US not close to your home. Sorry you are worried about all those that are worried about your kits costing too much. IMHO this is a total non-evernt. Your products are a bargain for what they do. Most of the cheap-asses have Harley's in their garage worth 50K. I really do not understand you not elevating your products to the next level with important Continuing Education for us all.
And yes I have 29 tube books here which I have read and not been able to understand your products.
-
FWIW, I understand both arguments, but I will say that there is a world of difference between reading about something in the abstract in a text book, vs. learning what each component does as you build a real-world project.
I can suggest a compromise...writing and proofing such a text can be time-consuming and tedious. How about a video? This can be fairly informal and off the cuff. Just walk us through each section of, say, a Crack or a Quickie, and explain what it does, how the values of the components are selected, what you are trying to optimize for, etc. That might be less work than writing a text on the subject.
Just don't make it a 5-minute video. I'm thinking something that is more like 30 minutes to really do it justice. You don't have to do any editing or fancy tricks, just set up a camera and start talking.
This is meant to be a helpful suggestion, not a criticism or complaint.
Best regards,
Adam
-
I appreciate the intentions of what you guys are saying. These days we are working away at large numbers of kit orders and there are just 4 of us to get the work done. Consequently we have hired outside help for our bookkeeping, web design, and several other things that Eileen and I used to do ourselves, in order to keep the kits flowing out to the brown trucks. That has to remain our number one priority for a while, and we also have new products to complete and release and I still have my second job taking part of my time. So if I don't deliver what is requested here in the near future, please understand that it's not because I have abandoned the idea, it's just because our plate is really full.
-
There's also no performance gains to be had in any kit by including full technical details in the manual.
-
I wish I could recall the exact exploratory path that I took to get to BH, but the best I recall, I was poking around on craigslist to see what used tube equipment sold for and that search ultimately brought me to the BH site. Poking around on the products page for a few weeks led me to order my first kit last year (s.e.x.) and I'm now on my third currently. (Damn, I'm not done yet....I keep getting interrupted with "life" things......jeez!!!")
I don't know that I would be in favor of any change to the business model other than more!, faster!. ;D I've been on all sides of the cost spectrum on product procurement in my life and it appears this audience fits that mold too. There are some on this forum that are retired, some gainfully employed, some wealthy, some not. Yet all are fans of the analog tube sound and tinkering too much with the business model would either dilute the experience or leave it only to those with higher income/assets.
I would love relevant, specific, educational type knowledge...."this is what this thing does, and it causes this thing to do that thing....." on every product, but I personally think the cost/benefit/desirability quotient is pretty much perfect, for this fan, as it is. I would pay for some education within reason but I would not want it baked into the price. No more than I would want to pay for the requirement to have an impedance switch included in every applicable kit...when if one knows what exact purpose they are going to use the kit for, they can dispense with that cost and extra time and wire it for the specific impedance necessary.
just one BH fan's opinion
-
There's also no performance gains to be had in any kit by including full technical details in the manual.
Understood. I don't think anyone is looking for performance gains, just an educational experience.
-
I would love relevant, specific, educational type knowledge...."this is what this thing does, and it causes this thing to do that thing....." on every product, but I personally think the cost/benefit/desirability quotient is pretty much perfect, for this fan, as it is. I would pay for some education within reason but I would not want it baked into the price. No more than I would want to pay for the requirement to have an impedance switch included in every applicable kit...when if one knows what exact purpose they are going to use the kit for, they can dispense with that cost and extra time and wire it for the specific impedance necessary.
Well, I don't think you would need to provide such a detailed explanation for every kit, necessarily. Starting out with just one would be a huge help. And long term, if you did it for, say, one headphone amp, one speaker amp and one pre-amp (or whatever the best examples are), then I think that would cover the bases. And I don't think there is a real financial/cash cost component to what I've suggested above. Doc already has a video camera. Plunk it on a tripod and talk. Then upload the raw, unedited video to YouTube. The true cost is in time, which -- believe me -- I understand is in short supply.
I'm not suggesting this is a trivial task, just that it doesn't have to increase the price of the kits. I don't think we need to turn Bottlehead into a textbook publisher or an institution of higher learning. But some additional information would be helpful, and that information can be communicated in whatever the cheapest, easiest, most efficient manner is.
The thought of writing a textbook about even the most elemental basics of my profession makes we want to go lie down, pull a blanket over my head, and take a nap. That's true even if you told me you were just looking for a 10-page synopsis. But if you walked into my office and asked me teach you the basics in 30 minutes, I could do it right off the cuff and do a pretty good job. Would it be perfect? No. Would it have footnotes and cross-references for further reading? No. But you would walk out of my office knowing a hell of a lot more about my work than you did when you walked in. And I wouldn't even charge you for it... ;)
-
Does it occur to anyone that this technical support forum with 45,000 posts and 12 million page views might be serving the purpose to some extent?
-
It occurred to me, but I don't think it really does. There is a world of difference between snippets here and there, vs. someone walking you through the circuit in a logical and coherent manner.
Moreover, I don't really think the stuff that we are interested in is anywhere in the forums anyway. There is lots of stuff about caps and volume pots and tantalum resistors and whatnot. I've been reading every post that gets posted here for months and months now, and I've done a lot of digging in the forum. But I still don't know much or have a "big picture" view of how these amps work.
To be clear, if you guys can't do this, then I'll understand (although I'll be disappointed). I was just trying to point out a way that this could be done with relatively minimal effort if you decided it was something you would consider doing. FWIW, I think this would have strong marketing potential, too. Tyll's video on the Crack must have been a big marketing boost, too.
-
I have built Knight Kits and Heathkits. Very nicely done with color glossy manuals and tech talk. Very professional.
They are both done. Gone. Out of Business. All washed up. Tossed in the trash. Garbage.
I don't want that to happen to Bottlehead.
OK. The electrons want to flow to the plate. You set up the bias to get the flow right in the middle of the window and the grid controls the flow.
How's that?
-
Perfect. Thanks, Mike. Now I know everything I could ever want to know. Scratch my comments above. I don't know what I was thinking.
[Sarcasm off.]
OK, you know more than I do and don't see the value in this. Fair enough. The Bottlehead team is busy and can't do this right now. But you can't possibly come up with a plausible scenario where making a bare bones video for one kit along the lines of what I described would bankrupt Bottlehead or force an increase in the kit prices. Disagree with me if you will, but you don't need to resort to unrealistic and ludicrous doomsday scenarios to make your point.
-
Nah, this wasn't at you, this was a bark at the OP that thinks I have a 50 grand Harley in the garage.
The Bottlehead guys rock. They put out kits that sound great that are unavailable elsewhere.
I love the badge. A blue collar guy with a tube head. Bottlehead makes the high end affordible to blue collar guys. And you better know how to work, because it's not going to build itself.
And they make it easy with great instructions and pictures on PDF. No manual. Printed manuals are expensive. I hate that.
I have to put my kit on the keyboard shelf to see the instructions as I build it. I guess I should whine about that.
Nah, I'll just bask in the glory of the sound.
Really, if you want to learn about electronics, start with ohms law and go from there. If you don't know ohms law 29 books on vacuum tube theory will do you no good.
-
I was really into computers when I started college... so I enrolled myself in a computer engineering program. After finishing a few computer science classes, a EE class, and the first half of "Intro to logic circuits", I realized I would rather put a shotgun in my mouth than pursue a career in this field.
Now that I am into the DIY audio thing, I kick myself for not paying more attention to my EE lectures, but I was exposed to enough to understand that anything I might care to learn about the subject is only a textbook away.
The internet is flooded with free reading material, and I am sure that after a month or two of dedicated study, you would be able to elucidate the role of any component found in the bottlehead kit.
If you really want to learn, this would be a good place to start... over 4GB of free books on this website
http://www.tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm
-
Another thought... This is a business. They are doing what they do best. Their success, or lack of it stands on its own. You can only do so many things right. If its not broken dont fix it.... dont count your chickens before they hatch... all that glitters is not gold... all for one and one for all... dont get your knickers in a twist... yea thats it...
-
Ummmm....yeah. I'm not asking Bottlehead to change their business model by making one unpolished video.
Anyhoo...I stand by what I said above. There is a world of difference between reading some general principle in a book, vs. learning about a project you are building yourself. But I think we've probably beaten this subject to death. Some see value in the idea and would learn something. Others don't. And it's moot since the team doesn't have the time.
-
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine who wrote her own songs and music and performed in clubs. One night after a few too many drinks and watching her perform I tried giving her a little advice about something. She responded with a very curt "Let's see you get up there and do it".
Suffice to say, this stuff isn't easy. It takes time and effort. A lot of information is already out there. But if you really want to know, you kinda gotta suck it up and do your own homework.
I bought a 1962 RCA Transmitting Tube Manual from amazon for $12. Some of it was over my head but I learned a lot of basics that were never really clear to me before. I highly recommend it.
-
Might have a look at the Valve archives. Things like parafeed are well explained there.
There are a number of projects there that are explained in great detail, some by current Bottlehead designers. I for one always reread the "Blues Master" by Doc Himself, each time I contemplate building a new amp.
If you really want to understand this stuff, its not hard but you have to do your homework. Once you get 1 or 2 things, the other 4 or 5 are like, oh OK.
How about this, have a look at the Valve archives, Let's pick an article and break it down. I will help, I bet if we ask Granger nicely he and others would jump in...John
-
Sure, that would be awesome!
-
I just wanted to chime in with a big +1 for adam's video idea. It's a small investment for a potentially big payoff. It need not even be an official BH video. Perhaps someone on this forum who has done their homework could discuss the circuit design for 30 minutes.
-
The point is, there are probably many things that Bottlehead COULD do that would, in someone else opinion, be a good move for them. Those in charge decide on all these things, such as whether to advertise, sell dildos on the side etc. I think its ridiculous to tell people how to run their business. I, personally, think it would be good to get their kit reviewed in the 'mainstream' audiophile subculture. Who cares what I think! In a way, I'm glad they dont.
-
Whoa again! Nobody is "telling" anybody to do anything. Requesting, asking, begging, groveling: maybe. Ordering, telling, demanding, threatening: no.
I'll put my money where my mouth is. If someone wants to pick a good article (or articles) for me and others to read, explains the basics of the Crack circuit, and agrees to answer some reasonable number of questions, I'll pay them $50. Maybe someone else can kick in a few bucks, too. It has to be done publicly, in a thread here for all to read and benefit from.
-
sorry Adam... I'm in a "mood". Hard week. Kind of frustrated..
-
Crack is easy. Direct coupled triodes. You can see from the schematic how easy it is.
The input tube is biased by the LED. The signal goes to the grid. The load line is determined by the resistor or the current source (speedball)
The output is direct to the grid of the 6080. Also biased by the load resistor or the current source.
The amplified signal is coupled to the phones through the 100 uF cap.
Done. Keep the $50. See how easy this is?
You have a DC circuit (bias) keeping the tubes in the active region and an AC circuit through the middle isolated by the (DC blocking) caps.
-
No questions? Good.
Now lets look at the power supply, the heart of all things electronic.
The circuit is called CRCRC as the filter is 3 caps coupled by 2 resistors.
The transformer delivers AC to the bridge rectifier which flips the negative half cycle to positive. Now we have DC, but it's really rough. The first cap holds the peak voltage, the series resistor reduces it and makes it more stable, the 2nd cap increases the stability and again for the last stage where we have the output voltage of 170 VDC.
The filter has reduced the DC to just a litle over the RMS value of the transformer, so it should be nice and quiet (low ripple)
Now I have one for you guys. Lets see if you know Ohm's Law and how to apply it.
Using the Crack manual only and a calculator, tell me how much current the power supply (B+ only) is delivering to the amplifier.
-
Perhaps the real solution to this conversation is to rehash Valve?
-
I started this post and found the replies all interesting. Dan, you do have your plate full and production must be goal #1 for a small business and as wonderful as yours is. My suggestion is to pass this of laterally to an associate, review his work and offer it as an upgrade option on your website and you both split the additional profit at say, 20$ per kit.
Judging by the large interest in this topic that might be some additional cash flow. Grainier and PB. Are you listening????
-
Bob,
Where it says "Old Fart" today it once said, "You Know I'm Not A Bottlehead Employee, Right?"
I am retired from Kimberly-Clark. Retired again from a 6 month contract with them two weeks ago.
-
Yes Grainger I know that you are not a Bottlehead employe. But you are active and I bet that after 6 months of retirement you will totally board as most are in retirment. Reminds me of an 85 year old corn farmer in the Midwest interviewed on NPR 3 weeks ago. The asked him why he was still farming several thousand Akers at his age and he said "Allthe old farmers I know that retired to the suburbs died of a heart attack in 6 months ".
-
So, Granger, I guess thats it. No more temp?
I'm a temp now, in 2 weeks I will be, finally, part time - a job share arrangement. I figure that will be what I need....
-
Nope, waiting for a call back. I have been assured it will happen this fall.
Part time temp is a good thing. Full time stops everything I have on my plate at home. I think you have the right idea.
-
I just want to preface this comment with the fact that I have not built a kit yet, but I have read some books on the subject and will be building the quickie soon, followed by a sex kit. The truth is, I want to know more, and I see real value in someone who is very well versed in the subject doing a video, breaking down a build into easily explained portions. To that end, should someone from Bottlehead ever have time to do this, I would be more than happy to pay for the privilege of accessing the video or videos. Also, I am not demanding these at all. I just would love them. Much like a video I watched recently of Peter Lederman from Soundsmith breaking down his philosophy on moving iron cartridges. I gained a lot from that video and I crave more, given his talent fro producing great products. Thanks in advance.
-
I was going to stay out of this, but....
I recently completed my first kit a Reduction. As I was putting it together, it dawned on me how much time and effort went into the kit. Someone has to design the circuit, test, revise, test.... Then as I was soldering components in I realized how much work went into just the layout. And it is already set up for future add ons. Somebody has to write instructions that even I can follow, source all the components, organize, pack, ship, and I'm sure a lot that I am missing. Then they put this wonderful kit to my door for a great price.
I guess what I am saying is that BH is doing what they do very well, and I don't feel it is their job to educate me.
Typing finger is tired.
Mark out.
-
Thanks, Mark. Kudos to PJ, PB and Josh for a whole lot of the things you mentioned. This thread is kind of funny to me because we have spent 20 years figuring out how to design kits specifically so that people who don't know how all the parts work can build them. That, in fact, is our specialty.
I do take that folks want to learn more as a great complement. And I consider it a complement that someone would ask us to help them when a library of text books has not. I'm just not sure how much curriculum we can fit in. Things are very, very busy here at BHQ these days just trying to keep up with the number of orders coming in.
-
You guys post questions In the TECHNICAL TOPICS folder and I'm pretty sure they will all be answered.
Dan & Company write the best manuals I have seen. You can't imagine how I appreciate that. The first kit I assembled had both the instructions and schematic wrong! That is inexcusable! Bottlehead is light years beyond those instructions.
As Dan just posted, he intends to write to novices. He used to test the manuals on his wife Eileen. But now she is an experienced kit builder. See, a double edged sword.
-
I am glad I started this post as it got a bunch of response from people interested like me. Dan and company are already over the top for the products and service they provide. If they don't have the time for additional CE enhancements, then I totally understand.
Thank God, someone is producing state of the art electronics at an affordable price with great design and manuals.
-
FWIW, I would have gladly purchased a $50-$100 add-on of a theory manual that addressed detailed design decisions for the Eros or BeePre.
And if one ever comes out, I'll order it...But yeah, I understand the constraints of time and resources. Just saying there is a paying market out there if BH decides to give this a try at some point.
-
You guys could probably save $50 by going to the forum category that deals with the kit you are interested in and asking specific questions about the design. If it is something that we feel we can share we are happy to do so.
-
I totally understand and appreciate that bottlehead's core mission and focus has to remain devoted to the design, production and awesome community support related to its kits. I imagine having lives outside of work may also be something of a priority for some of you ;)
That said, should it ever become feasible for you all to offer some sort of video lecture or webcast, walking through the internals of the crack, mainline, etc. - I am among those who would gladly pay to play. The fact of the matter is that we all know, from personal experience, just how good bottlehead's kits sound - so the prospect of learning/relearning some of the basics from you all in some sort of a virtual lecture setting is really appealing.
In the meanwhile, those of you who are interested might also want to peruse the NEETS (Navy Electronics and Electricity Training Series) materials. Here's a direct link to the chapter on amplification: http://www.phy.davidson.edu/instrumentation/Files/NEETS/Mod08%20-%20Amplifiers.pdf Earlier chapters start with E&M 101 and move through vacuum tube anatomy and design etc., depending on how many hundreds of pages you have time to work through.