Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Stereomour => Topic started by: ALL212 on October 10, 2013, 09:12:39 AM
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I've just ordered my Stereomour and the big decision is which way to build it. 2A3's or 45's? I understand the power difference.
Is there a vast difference in the sound? What are your impressions if you've listened to both types of tubes in the same amp?
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Start with 2A3s. That will create a baseline from which you can determine if 45s are the way you want to go. IMO the 2A3 is more versatile in terms of musical genre because of the power output and bass delivery. The 45 is kind of a longhair tube for those who want see through clarity and black background at the expense of some shall we say soul - that is, James Brown soul, not Catholic soul. That soul thing is why I listen to 300Bs.
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Thank you, sir!
I will proceed with a 2A3 amp.
Now...just because Doc posted this doesn't mean the rest of you can't attempt to influence me!! ::)
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This has to be asked, do you have speakers that will operate on the 45s? If so, I hear more magic the lower the power. 45s are a great way to go with the right speaker.
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I agree with Grainger the 45 tubes really are magical!
Deb
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Paramours...1 pair 2A3, 1 pair 45. Doc really pretty much nails it....
I listened to both for several month, stock other than the required cathode resistor change, etc. to go to 45. The 45 is sublime... timbre, imaging, palpable presence...everything is like a fine still life on velvet. The 2A3's are more dynamic, like the same still life with a spot light focused on it. 300B's have more grunt...double the spotlight and the velvet painting is now Elvis. (I like my 300B's, but they have remained in the closet for quite a while. A bit noisy on my 102db speakers. Need to change them to DC heaters!)
Musical genre really plays a role in the selection. I listen to jazz, blues, female vocals, classical. The 45's are really the best with intimate, small ensemble stuff. The 2A3's are better when the music is amplified, and the ensembles are larger. When the blues get heavily amplified or the classical is full force symphony, time for 300B's, or my standby PSE 6L6 amps. Not that the the 45's or 2A3's are bad on the big stuff, just maybe too polite.
All that being said, most of my attention has been on the 45's, matching them with MQ iron. Simply hard to not listen to them. OS 45's are still reasonable cheap, listening to a pair of with 1937 service lables on them. I also have a pair of Sophia Meshplate 45's that get rotation, but really don't, IMO better the old stock.
I need to look at similar changes to the Paramour 2A3's, either the new BH iron offering or MQ. I have OS RCA, Sovtek and JJ 2A3/40's, (which to me sound more like 300B's). The Sovtek's are damn good, especially for the price. I need to try some Chinese 2A3C's, which are well recommended on this forum. (Grainger is a fan)
So think about to what you will listen and what sonic characteristics make your listening experience special.
Cheers,
Geary
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I've got some AV123 ELT525's that are 83dB @ 1w/1m, a pair of Boston Acoustics A60's at 90db and a few other small bookshelf options. None of these are stock and all have had crossover upgrades.
I've experimented with some 5w Pass camp amps on my Dahlquist DQ-10's and am amazed at the sound quality. No - I cannot blow the house down. They are not "near field" but you don't want to get too far away either.
So I'm not expecting to blow windows out - I'm looking for the best sound this amp can put out.
As I'm writing Geary posted so I'm adding...
Female vocalists are what I really like to listen to - instrumentals are a favorite. I don't expect these to play Pink Floyd or Zeppelin - I've got other amps to handle the heavy work.
Edit - I'm looking for magic out of this amp.
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Go with the 2A3, you can always change your mind later. I love the 45 and have the speakers for it. I think the 2A3 is a better match for yours...John
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BTW, I was not contradicting Dan's suggestion of starting at 2A3 and going to 45. Just saying I think you will prefer the 45.
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I do want to get to the 45's but I'll start with 2a3's so I know what you guys and gal are all talking about.
Thanks for the guidance.
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Remember that you can still put a 2A3 in a 45 amp but not the other way. I built mine straight for 45's but I have a quad of 97db speakers. YMMV.
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I think starting with the 2a3 first and then trying to the 45 after is the way to go. I tried all on my Pramounts and my opinion varied from day to day. I ended up with 45s and went the full route with Magnequest OTs and chokes for 45. I don't miss the 2a3, but occasionally I wonder if I shouldn't have stayed with the 300B as I liked the oomph it provided. But that is only when someone mentions it, overall I love playing vintage 30s and 40s output tubes, not an option with 300Bs and vintage 2a3s aren't exactly cheap anymore either.
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Paul's (Paully's) opinion varies from hour to hour! We are very good friends and he will agree!
He started out with the 300Bs, then 2A3s, back to 300Bs, to 2A3s, to 45s and I think that made him happiest. I heard all iterations but not for long times, we live 4.5 hours apart. I agreed with his opinions, the lower the power the better the detail and lifelike sound.
His 45s and his Altec model 19s have better bass than any other iteration I remember. But I am not sure I heard the 300Bs and the model 19s. Now doubt the model 19s are better in the bass than the Valencias. (I'm not a bass freak, more a high frequency freak)
As always YMMV!
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I know the thread is Stereomour, but I'm wondering about the Paramounts, since they've now been mentioned, too.
I always figured the 2a3s would be preferable to 300B, especially since I have very sensitive speakers. No? And how do you wire them for 45s?
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IMHO, yes. I'm going to tweak my Paramours to 45 soon as I whittle down my to do list for the home.
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So 45>300B>2a3 ?
How much are good 45s going for?
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First response, do a search on converting the Paramount to 45 as there is a lot of very good information in the archives about changing out the two big cathode resistors, etc... More than I can remember and repeat here.
Second, a pair of 45s will run from $120 to $200 with the increased demand and dwindling supply pushing it steadily upwards.
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With your listed sensitivity, you are going to have a hard time with 2A3 and beyond difficult with the 45 if you listen at higher volumes. Yes the 45 has a special sound but unless you have the speakers for them you will be left disappointed and looking for new speakers. Just don't get your hopes up. If you want the magic you need the right speakers. Paully and I are running 19's and they get plenty loud on a watt though I've driven mine to clipping on occacion with my 2 watt SEX amp.
It may be possible to get a 45ish sound with a 300B and that's what I'm chasing now. I'll report back if it ends up successful ;)
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I didn't even notice the speakers. His next thread will be asking about Klipsch, single drivers, and Altecs...
But no, I don't think 45s are going to work well from my previous experience with 2 watts on 90db.
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And neither is a 2A3 very well. SET sound has a price and that's a higher efficiency speaker or listening at a very low level.
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You talking about me or the OP? My Klipsch are 99db.
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Matching to speakers is critical with SET's. An easy load can offset lower sensitivity in some cases. Low sensitivity and impedence picks are not a good match.
I have a pair of Gallo Nucleus, the original 1 ball speakers with the capacitive tweeter. There is no crossover. They are extremely easy to drive and 90dB/1w/1m. 300B great, 2a3 actually pretty good, the 45's did well on female vocals, small ensemble jazz and chamber music. My room is a bit largish, 16X40 with a cathedral ceiling 14'. IMO the key is no weird crossover issues and/or impedance peaks.
My buddy has Thiel CS3's, 89dB/1w/1m and none of the above amps, (nor my 40w 6L6GC PSE amps) sounded good...pinched frequency range and thin bleached timbre. Thiel crossovers are fairly complex and they were not a good match with any of my tubes amps, although almost, (to me), listenable with Rogue Audio Magnum M150's. He is a sand guy, but wanted to hear the Thiels with tubes. He is now looking to replace the Thiels.
As in all things, YMMV....
Cheers,
Geary
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At Sam, that was directed at the OP.
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So 45>300B>2a3 ?
That may not really mean all that much. The 71A and the 10Y are wonderful DHT's as well, but even harder to match to speakers than the 45.
It's tough to tell if TJ is producing more 45's. The EML's are quite nice, and old stock is still pretty well available.
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Gee...darn...I'll have to get some new speakers...bummer. I'm all broke up...this is terrible...worst thing ever...
;D SWEEEETTT!!!! ;D
This appears to be a new journey for me. I am going to start with what I have and 2A3's. Once proper speakers are found then I'll change the amp to run the 45's and see what happens next.
Since I'm the OP can I change the topic...oh, that's already been predicted :o !! How about the kits on Madisound with the Fostex drivers - folded horns, no crossover, full range?
I really do appreciate the input - this is a new journey for me and I'm really looking forward to this!!
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Go big or go home. You may find happiness with the Madisound cabs and Fostex drivers (I didn't) but once I found the big Altec's I didn't look back. Think GPA 604's, 19's, or Valencia's if you go big. There are other routes but I'm an Altec fan and biased ;)
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I am with Johnsonad, go big, but we are Bottleheads so we do care about value too. There are lots of threads on speakers but Blumenstein is loved around here (needs a subwoofer), Klipsch is a great and reasonably priced option especially if you pay attention to the overlooked models like Chorus II (had a pair of those, liked them a lot) and of course us Altec lovers will tell you you are stoned if you don't love them too. Altec quality is well respected even if they don't trip your trigger. I have a pair of Model 19s and I am done for the foreseeable future.
As far as Madisound and that whole concept goes, I don't know.
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You guys ever heard of "WAF"? ::)
'Tis part of my equation for success...
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Lol, good luck with that! My wife is happy with my monster 19's which in many ways makes me a lucky man. You could consider a 604 in a Stonehenge cab possibly.
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Ah, the dreaded WAF, you are obviously in the living room. My section of the basement allows me a lot of latitude. Well, Madisound have a smaller footprint, Klipsch Heresy, Blumenstein are beautiful and small and you can stick the subwoofer off to the side somewhere. Anyway, the archives are your friend here and on audioasylum. Good luck!
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Never had a chance to play with the Altecs but I keep coming back to my Hornshoppe horns.
If you go back to considering the BK-16 I think the horns would be an upgrade.
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I picked up Paully's Valencias. They were about 15 miles from my house. I wrestled them up to my listening room and they almost went from wall to wall. Well, they were about 4 feet apart but you couldn't walk around them and the stereo very well.
Never mind WAF they just didn't fit my room.
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I built my Stereomour as a 2A3, then I modified it to the 45. In terms of comparison, I find the 45 to be more "subtle" in the sense that when you listen to jazz or vocals, you can hear all the different instruments more clearly than the 2A3. Of course, you will need a suitably pair of speakers with sufficient sensitivity. I am currently using a pair of Tekton Lore - 98 db which are very easy to drive. The choice of music also matters. The 45 is in my view ideal for jazz. I have found that for full orchestra classical music, both the 2A3 and the 45 and even the 300B is not sufficient, ( I owned a 300B/2A3 amp and I preferred the 2A3 to the 300B), and sometimes I revert back to a push-pull amp for this musical genre. Perhaps a quality sub will help in such a case to get to sub-bass sounds of a full orchestra. I recently replaced the 45 tubes ( GEs) with JJ 2A3s with the Stereomour in the 45 configuration. While the JJ 2A3s were louder, I preferred the 45 and switched back after a few days. Hope this helps.
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Aaron,
I'd think that the Madisound BK-12 would be a great place to start for not too much money.
If you'd be interested in a set of Orcas, drop me a PM.
Eitheir of these would also work nicely with the quickie/ACA amps too.
-- Jim
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Jim, you are probably right on size and waf for the Madisound boxes. I wasn't too impressed by the pair I had. Maybe the Orchas will be a better fit but I can't comment on their sound.
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Grainger and I can comment on the Orcas, and they are wonderful. But you need a sub. There is also a very long thread in the forum about said speakers.
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Too many Aarons -- the OP is an Aaron as wel :-).
I'm just going on the comments another BH friend of mine made about the bk-12 which he was able to drive to very loud levels with his s.e.x. 2.1, and which he preferred to the other fostex speakers he had or heard. With the fostex drivers, there does really seem to be more magic with the smaller drivers, at least to my ears. Of course it is not anywhere near the orcas, but for $300/pair they are a really great place to start with SD speakers.
BTW, the Orcas I have also have a sub and sub amp in the package.
-- Jim