Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Doc B. on November 20, 2013, 06:17:15 AM
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I am beginning the process of updating our home theater. Currently I am using a DWIN Transvision3 projector which in spite of its age and 720p limit I like because of its film-like quality. But I realize that it's time to step up to 1080. I'm reading that some feel the top of the line CRT projectors from 10 or 15 years ago still beat out the current digital projectors in terms of that film-like quality and rich blacks.
I know of the fellow across the border who refurbishes and sells CRT projectors, but I am wondering if anyone in the Puget Sound area has a nice high end CRT projector setup like a G70, Marquee, 1209, etc., they would be willing to let me experience. I will bring your favorite beverage and maybe even some Bottlehead gear to audition if you are interested.
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FWIW.....I have just seen my friends "at the time" TOTL barco crt in his home with blu ray discs playing a couple days back and boy, I was impressed.. It just looked fabulous and needless to say, he is quite happy as well... Very rich in color, sharpness and detail... No grain or anything... The only drawback is, when you are sportin' them 3d glasses, it wont do a damn thing for them.... :)
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Thanks for the reinforcement. For 3D with older tech I believe the solution is to buy two projectors and go crazy getting them to line up right. I looked into buying a second Dwin for that reason, but I find that I'm not that knocked out by the 3D I have watched. Admittedly not that many movies - I think Avatar, The Hobbit and Gravity (what a shitty movie and unsympathetic character, I kept wishing she would just die). 3D is technically interesting but not compelling enough to make it a must have for me.
We are canceling our cable TV package because I am tired of watching or FF'ing thru a zillion commercials. Right now I am struggling with the fact that all this high def video gear is worthless if the Netflix stream can't deliver HD at peak viewing hours. Our blu ray player sort of does it, sometimes maybe 720, sometimes less. The 2009 Mac Mini I tried last night wasn't getting HD at all from the same Ethernet connection but was sporting really great looking HD on our connection at work in the middle of the day. Our speed was 45 down and 5.8 up so it's not the connection. Guess I have to try a PC next. I understand that with a PC you can force netflix HD playback and simply wait longer for it to retrieve.
Some great news about the theater is that I got my last bit of Blumenstein gear for it this week from Clark and Molly. I'll be using Orcas for fronts and rears, an Orca center channel and a BUF sub that holds the center at a perfect height just below the screen. Now I have to figure out what kind of amps to buy. I'm thinking about tube amps. Anybody know where I might get some?
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The issue is simple - Comcast throttles your internet way back when you run Netflix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx13U5W7FQg&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx13U5W7FQg&feature=youtu.be)
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Challenge acknowleged, will check this tonight.
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You mean you prefer analog for movie watching as well? :-)
BTW, we just moved from a 25 mb comcast line to a 40 mb dsl liine and my wife's iTunes movie downloads went from 4 hours to 20 minutes. Obviously the speed difference of the lines cannot account for that huge difference.
P.S. - if you ever want to go to a 7.1 system, I've got a nice set of orcas on tall stands plus sub and amp I can make you a really good deal on ;-).
-- Jim
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Hah! I have a 25M comcast line at home, and a 5M DSL at the summer cabin - which opens the Comcast email about 5 times faster!
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Very much agreed regarding the 3D.. I, as well, am not knocked out by it and actually prefer the "classic" way of viewing... I was just kiddin' ya about 3D... Barco and Runco and Sony are worth looking into....
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Thanks! Already looking at Sony, Barco and Electrohome. Realizing that my room may be a little too short for the length of CRT projector to be able to fit my screen, hmmm.
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a few years ago, my roommates bought a commercial NEC CRT projector (much like the one pictured below) on ebay. I believe they spent $1500 for the unit, which was 15 years old and retailed for $25,000k to $30,000k (new) when it was still on the market. I told them they were crazy, that there was no way the thing would be selling for that cheap if it was in working order (as described in the listing).
(http://)
Sure enough, when the behemoth arrived, it was a 250lb coffee table-sized lemon. when powered on, it kept saying (error XXX - Fan 3)... then it would shut itself off. What is funny is that after replacing all of the fans with cheap computer case fans, the error screen went away.
I remember spending days, literally, calibrating that projector. After about 30 hours and a few cases of beer, I was completely blown away by the picture quality. We had a 300 inch screen going on a wall that wasn't a whole lot larger, and a sweet SLI-gaming rig hooked up to it.
I think I watched "finding nemo" 20 or 30 times over the course of a month... not because I even care for the film, (i hate kids movies), but because the colors were so incredible. I have still yet to see a display that I thought looked more natural, including a megabuck DLP projector I saw in a private theater a few years later.
I definately think you are making a wise choice by going with the CRT. Once its properly calibrated, you will have no need for 3D capability.
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I saw a high end projector displayed at a Audio King many years ago. I think it was a Sharp brand, and $ 12, 000. the picture was beautiful! A couple of months latter I was in that same store, and went into the highend theater room to oogle it again. This time I was not impressed at all. I looked up and there was a $4000 unit hooked up. I asked about the "good one", the sales guy said someone walked off with it. Nobody asks the guy in the jumpsuit, with the tools who he is and what is he doing.
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Sturm.. It was probably DB Cooper, it just feels like it... I am happy about this thread, because, like all of you, last week, I, myself was singing the praises to my friend about his crt projector.... I think the big factor is NOT with the future proof type picture quality.. but with the companies support.... ie bulbs etc... I do know that Barco still exists and Sony of course does as well. however.. TOTL projectors like Vidikron of years ago?? I dont know?? YMDIVITI..... your mileage does indeed vary in this instance....
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I have been communicating with a very nice fellow named Curt Palme, who has a fabulous website for CRT projector owners. Curt sells, repairs, calibrates and keeps tons of inventory. He knows which projs are worth keeping alive, which you can still get parts for, and which ones throw the best images. The site is an absolute gold mine. Www.curtpalme.com.
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You influenced me into tape, rangefinder cameras and now I'm looking at CRT projectors, stay away Satan!
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Did I ever mention that late 80's and early 90s Mercedes are some of the best ones they ever made?
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You got it Doc... enuff said... Go with Curt, he sounds like the perfect guy as you know..... and BTW , my friends cinema room isnt all that large and his Barco is HUGE!!! It is pretty funny watching the videos with this BIG A## unit looming over your head.. but you soon forget about it because you are sucked in by the quality, that is until it falls on your head and kills you... hey , its indonesia.. :)....
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To follow up on getting Netflix to work, I found a solution. Using a VPN seems to fix the throttling issue. I did have a problem with getting disconnected after 30 minutes, which sucks when watching a 45 minute episode of Breaking Bad (Queenie's and my latest obsession).
After digging around for answers yesterday I think I finally worked that issue out by upgrading the Mini from OS 10.6.8 to Mavericks. Gotta say I was impressed that mavericks is a free upgrade. Brilliant bit of marketing.
@chris, yeah I have been taking some measurements to determine if hanging one of the monsters from the ceiling is possible for the size screen I'm using. This would be my 4th projector and the first that I had to consider whether it would actually fit in the room!
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The detail I left out is that I am looking at a Sony right now and Sony did a really nice throw distance calculator program that Curt has downloadable from his site. So if that is the proj I end up with all is good, with about 20" of wiggle room. After I mulled over the problem I remembered that my first proj ( a DIY one) ended up with a similar CRT proj lens in front of an LCD panel and I had a very adequate short throw distance that allowed hanging the big box from the ceiling without even getting close to the back wall.
Man, that was a project and a half. By the time I finished it projector prices had dropped enough that I could buy a better projector for less than I had put into the DIY project. So I did, and parted out the DIY one. Heluva learning experience though.
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Found a pic of the LCD panel projector I built 9 years ago. And I thought it was big.
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This was delivered by Curt Palme this morning, a Sony VPH-G70. That is one of our office chairs behind it to give you a sense of the size, which I would call XXOMFG. Curt is a super nice guy, very knowledgable about both projectors and reel to reel tape decks. We spent a few very pleasant hours talking shop. My old homebrew projector that seemed so big when I built it now seems kinda small, and the Dwin TV3 in the HT right now seems positively tiny.
I'm running a 2010 Mac Mini as my new HTPC (thanks, Bill!), which should hook right up to this puppy.
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Looks Great... and it WILL be pretty awesome.. Sony made some of the best crt projectors a few years back.. They started around $16k I think also...
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OK, I'm getting an inkling of why people say these projectors are so great. The thing was really out of cal, but I'm slowly going through and pulling the image together. Still have the old Dwin TV3 proj up on ceiling and the 'new' one on the floor so I can compare. I streamed a netflix movie through the Mac Mini. Getting this to work long term from the VGA output that I am using at the moment is probably not worth it and I have ordered a card for the projector that will update it to input HDMI from the mini or a bluray player. But even with that less than optimal setup I can see why people rave about the black blacks and subtle tones that the digital proj just doesn't seem to quite get. In the minus column the DLP projector pretty much clobbers the CRT on sharpness at this early point in the game. Hopefully better cabling will make as big a difference as I suspect it will. Plus I still have quite a bit of tuning to do to focus and convergence.
I would say at this point that a higher end CRT projector is highly recommended if you like to watch movies rather than sports and you have the budget for the projector and to hire someone to set it up for you. Or you have a certain masochistic streak for learning overly complex obscure gear like I do. Unless you grasp what an undertaking DIYing one of these installations is it will just be a letdown. Better to call Curt Palme to set it up for you.
On the other hand, though it's only 720p the old Dwin still rocks and that sucker is pretty much plug n play with the Mac. And the Mac color adjustment feature works really well to calibrate the Dwin, which is not possible otherwise without a service menu that I could never locate. I was looking at my cousin's mid level 1080P LCD projector at Thanksgiving and aside from the higher resolution picture I prefer the Dwin for movies. I guess once they give out they are not salvageable, and hence they are CHEAP! I have only relamped mine once and I clean it inside regularly. I had planned to sell the Dwin if the Sony worked out, to offset a little of the expense. But they go for so cheap that I will probably just hang on to it. If you can risk a hundred or so bucks and won't cry if it dies on you the Dwin could be a killer way to get into front projection HT.
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Now thats a projector! If its anything like TV's and computer monitors i would go back to a quality CRT any day. For computer use i can see an argument for flat panels as they are sharper, better able to draw lines with clearly defined edges and all that, but for watching TV/Movies all you get is grainy image with more noticeable compression artifacts on lower quality sources. At least with a CRT all that blends away, and with the more natural colours it just looks better to me. Guess its a bit like opamps vs valve amps, ones technically better but we all know which we would rather be listening to :)
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I feel the same way about Plasma vs LCD FP screens. I have a Pioneer 50 (Exited Plasma 3 years ago) and a Panasonic 55 (Exited Plasma 3 months ago, the last to exit plasma - sad) that my LCD 42's can't compare in contract and black ratio. All about volume and price point.
Granted, I haven't seen an OLED screen yet ..... but that price point really needs to come down before I can seriously consider ... ;)
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I just saw that my HBO programming this month is showing "Pirahnaconda".... Yep, This kind of quality is EXACTLY why we have projector systems.... :)
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See that's why I changed to Netflix, much higher quality programming. I watched Dredd last week. It's a very cerebral and unique story about a cop in the future who shoots a lot of people. After that he shoots a lot more of them. I can't imagine how the writers come up with these original story lines.
Received the Moome HDMI input card that I ordered for the Sony today. Hopefully that will create a little sharper picture than the VGA feed I am watching right now. If I can just crisp it up a bit I will be a very happy camper. The blacks from the CRT are really something else. In our blacked out room (black ceiling and front wall, dark gray side and back walls with brown trim, floral rug with black background, black curtains in front of opaque window panels, black chairs) the black in scenes gets amazingly close to the black of the velvet masking the screen.
Been slowly tweaking the geometry all week. Pretty good now but it does seem to drift around a little bit. I do miss the set and forget aspect of the digital projector. Tomorrow I will attempt to enlist all able bodies in the house to get the monster hung from the ceiling. Once the Moome card is in it will be time for some color calibration. The plan is to end up with a room where we can demo Bottlehead and Blumenstein gear for HT applications.
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My oh my. Installed the Moome card last night. Ths gives me the ability to plug an HDMI cable into the analog projector. First I plugged in the Mac Mini since my plan was to use it rather than the Samsung bluray player we have used in the past. The Mini recognized the card via its HDMI output and said it was sending a 1080p signal, but I couldn't get it to properly size the bluray image. I got it good enough to watch for a bit, then we decided to try the Bluray player.
Holy s**t.
Basically plug n play, no hassles with setting up connection or sizing, and a stunning 1080P image. We watched Pacific Rim, which we expected to be a pretty hokey giant monster vs giant robot movie. Turned out to be very entertaining, and the cinematography was great with a surprising amount of practical effects and very well integrated CGI. I did have to apologize to the poor Orcas afterward for subjecting them to the power of a Stereomour reproducing 80 foot tall robot footsteps but they held up to my abuse. Ran the TOSLINK out of the bluray into an earlier prototype Bottlehead DAC.
So, CRT projector - once dialed in, fed HDMI and tweaked it's stunning
Mac mini as video server - not so great, decent image but lacking adjustability
Orcas for HT - wonderful, just watch out for those giant robots
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If you liked "Piranhaconda," then you'll love "Sharktopus," and, of course, we should all see "Sharknado" before it's added to the AFI Top 100 and it's impossible to find on DVD.
Speaking of Dredd, I couldn't resist adding a bit of trivia - the best pithy film review I ever read; for "Judge Dredd," ostensibly the progenitor of "Dredd," though I suppose the second could add some vital social commentary about future cops shooting future people.
Review of "Judge Dredd"
Judged dreadful.
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Glad you are happy Doc.. you had the same reaction that I did when watching my friends Barco on blu ray.. And he uses a Samsung player as well...
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The plan is to end up with a room where we can demo Bottlehead and Blumenstein gear for HT applications
Ran the TOSLINK out of the bluray into an earlier prototype Bottlehead DAC.
OK, so you did stereo right? I think the secret here will be using three BH dacs to do 5.1 (or four for 7.1). Surround works great for movies and the center channel is very important when there
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I have a full 5.1 set of Orcas and BUF sub to install, but at the moment we are running stereo. In the future the new DAC will have the ability to be daisy chained with two others to decode 5.1. For now I am considering a few options and leaning towards the Outlaw 975 as it is one of the few processors that can decode the Dolby Digital Plus used in Netflix streaming. Another possibility is to get the Oppo bluray player and just use its analog out directly into the amps.
As of today we are in a state of construction as I get the CRT up to the ceiling. Yesterday I installed a mount that hangs from steel angle mounted on top of the ceiling joists. After trying a couple of different lifting ideas that turned out to be too difficult, it's looking like a hoist mounted in the attic will be raising the proj to its mount through a small hole in the ceiling. This CRT stuff is not for wimps.
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Ha, I've also been looking at the 975. I had a 990 a few years back and it was great but "upgraded" to an onkyo pro 886 because I needed hdmi. Doesn't sound that good. The 975 seems like a very good alternative with less messing with the signal in the digital section. I just asked if they ship to Mx.
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Xavier,
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg7%2FGrainger49%2FSmiles%2Feek2_zps413daeab.gif&hash=e1e39e136cdd0201df3c6e361c13118bc3c455bf) . . . That will make the month when it is released.
If you guys release it while I'm still working (first day today) I am interested, very interested!
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CRT projectors are really cool but I will never be in a place that I can use one as they usually seem to need such a long distace to really work well.
I was going to suggest looking at the LCOS as I saw that you wanted good blacks but it looks like you found a CRT already.
You should post some pictures of your theater when you are done Doc!
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Throw distance was one of the things I had to find out before I decided to buy. Actually the throw distance of the CRT is about 3.5 feet shorter than my DLP was for the same screen size, 110" distance for an 84" wide screen (96" diag. 16:9). Which is good because the whole thing is so long it wouldn't fit in the room otherwise and there is no zoom adjustment like there is on digitals. The back of the Sony sits about where the front of the Dwin was.
There is a lot of math involved in calculating throw distance, screen height and tilt angle of the proj. with only about a 5% tolerance allowed. I worked out most of it empirically with the projector "floor mounted", actually on a couple of ikea parsons tables. Even so I ended up with a few sheets of paper covered with calcs for ceiling mounting at the same distance before I felt that had it all sorted yesterday.
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Agreed... again , my friends room is not that big and his CRT has a relatively short distance to the screen also....
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A forged eye bolt with heavy duty fender washer for the projector and a hoist ring for my rafter are on the way from McMaster. With the trusty comealong that I have used for everything from dragging cars with frozen brakes on to trailers to straightening out my bashed in truck bumper after getting rear ended in traffic jam a couple weeks ago (the woman had the gall to ask me to fix her bumper for her after following me at a crawl for a mile or so and then ramming me) I should be able to get this puppy winched up to the ceiling in style.
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Not to belabor the fun, but, I ran across yet another movie that is just what your CRT needs running through those big tri lenses.... "My Left Eye Sees Ghosts" on the thrill channel... Gotta think that would be quite inconvenient while driving... They should also add that to the disclaimer.. "If you are to operate heavy machinery, you cannot be under the influence of drugs, alcohol or ghosts in your left eye"....
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Cheerleader Ninjas, is another worthy "film". I have to admit, it is cleverly shot, and told, crappy story. Also George Takei palys their dojo master.
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I am impressed that you admitted you actually watched it!!! :)
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Doc,
I still use a Mac Mini as a media server, just not to play directly. I have iSedora running on the mini (I've also used Universal Music Server) as a music/video server pulling from direct attached storage, transmitting to the network input on an Oppo BDP-95 (I really like the Oppo for this and its ability to play numerous formats that the Mac is not inclined to natively, including FLAC & BluRay ).
I'm coming out of the Oppo multiple ways right now. Analog goes to tube pre to Paramounts and analog + HDMI into a Marantz 5005 for HT. Video goes via HDMI into both straight to TV and to the receiver.
I programmed a universal remote (Harmony Remote in this case) to family-proof the settings for common activities when I wasn't home. My recently ordered Paramounts will allow me to omit the Marantz and entirely just continue to use the Oppo as a universal media receiver.
Merry Christmas,
Bill
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Thanks Bill,
I really love the Mini I got from you and I'm not ready to give up on it. Not sure if using it just as a server through my BDP-1600 blu ray player is possible but I'll look into it. My main goal was to be able to stream Netflix off the Mini in order to make getting at the Netflix queue easier, as the Samsung just allows access to what is in your queue already.
Anyway, I may have found a possible solution in SwitchResX. Hopefully I'll have the proj on the ceiling tomorrow and I'll be able to get back to working on the rest of the setup and see if that might work. I also asked Clark for a pair of Dungeness subs to use with the front Orcas. This should allow me to keep the deep bass out of the Orcas and the single BUF sub I have been using can then operate as the .1 effects channel and center channel speaker stand.
PB picked up a cheap Ikea rack for the gear and we put in an inexpensive rug with a black background on the light colored floor to help the rest of the blackout efforts (including shooting the 'boardroom beige' projector panels with black Plasti dip spray). When it is all done we'll put some photos up on the soon to be launched new web site.
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Well, there's no way to set a crt projector in my small tv room.
But I need more room for my ever growing family.
And there's two shoeboxes under my kids rooms within the cimentation.
So now Dr Cortes (my father, phd in architecture, professor emeritus from the National University of Mexico and many other badges) is devising a way to recover that space. It looks like we can get a 7m x10m room. Completely light proof and sound proof. It'll be more like digging a mine than building a room.
Next steps: build two more Paramours to go from 5.1 to 7.1 (have all the parts including the Ni 050s to match the other five), build two additional Pi Pro four speakers, get a crt projector (already in process with curt palme), and, of course build the room :)
Doc, you'd better find a way to use the upcoming "philos" for multichannel.
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Very cool! Knowing your taste for upscale stuff I imagine you are looking in the G90/9500/909 range. I dunno anything about them, but I will say that being able to do 99% of the tweaking of the image from the Sony remote is really nice and I wouldn't hesitate to try a G90 if one came my way for a good price. And the Moome HDMI card really makes the setup easy and great looking.
Tonight I beefed up the ceiling joist support for the projector, cut a hole in the ceiling for my winch cable and when Colin gets here I will get him to help me mount the winch to the rafters in the attic. Not a lot of fun, but it beats digging a basement ;^)>
I'm sure there will be photos as we raise the beast into place. Tomorrow we should get the proj hung and converged and I will try out my new/old colorimeter.
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Nope,
This time I'll just go with the second tier and get a 8500. Curt was tempting me with a g90 but it's too heavy and it's gotta fly from BC to Aztlan. Curt will install all the bells and whistles including the hdmi card. It's a like new projector. This is a project that has all the family excited so no buyers remorse (as if I cared!).
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You guys are really giving me the bug on this one! I'll likely stick to fleshing out the sound portion of our HT for now though-- shipping to Hawaii for a rented house is impractical & we're facing a move next summer.
These are great projects-- keep us posted!
Cheers,
Bill
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Yeah, Doc, sort out the netflix scenario.. because your problem will be the same for us later on as well.. so report on your success as you are doing... And Bill, you are getting the bug for what? CRT projectors? or really bad movies with stupid titles??? :)
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Nope,
This time I'll just go with the second tier and get a 8500. Curt was tempting me with a g90 but it's too heavy and it's gotta fly from BC to Aztlan. Curt will install all the bells and whistles including the hdmi card. It's a like new projector. This is a project that has all the family excited so no buyers remorse (as if I cared!).
I bet that's an excellent choice. Sounds like it's time for you to buy a couple of shovels for the kids. I'm sure Curt knows the shipping details intimately, but after getting the projector hung last night I am laughing that one would think any of these monsters would be significantly lighter than the other. After crawling around in the attic for hours building the supporting structure and then wrestling the projector the last critical inch into its hanger I am sooooo sore. Thanks to Colin for being the other wrangler. He was saying he didn't feel too bad that he missed his weight lifting workout that day. The winch worked great, I can't even imagine getting the thing above table top height without it. I'll put some photos up later today, as they may give you some ideas when the time comes to install yours.
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Well, this has turned into quite the saga!
And it sounds like once Doc gets the popcorn ready, Xavier will carry the torch to another extreme.
I gotta say that nothing makes me feel my age like crawling around in the attic. I ousted some termites from a couple of ceiling joists earlier this year and I need to get back up there and make sure that I snuffed them all out. Also need to replace a smooshed heating duct section.
My procrastination is in overdrive on those items on the "ta do list"!
Carry on my brothers.
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Yes, the obituary reading you were killed by termites eating around projector while watching a movie would NOT be a good thing....
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For me the attic shock was realizing that the puny layer of ceiling insulation had collapsed to about an inch and a half thick. One more todo on my list. I was really sore yesterday after the install, but spending the day pushing buttons on the remote was a decent way to recover. After about six hours I got the setup good enough for a movie. Queenie bought a bluray of Elysium to christen it with. Great movie to test drive a projection system.
Tweaking the projector could become an obsession. I can see that the way for me to deal with it is to go at it a little at a time, refining it a bit here and there. I would continue to emphasize that the tweakiness is a major point if you are considering getting one of these guys. I've built projectors from scratch and studied optics in college and I still found it a fairly steep learning curve.
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Here's the supporting structure in the attic. The threaded rods on the lower panel hold the mount to the ceiling. No way in hell Shawn would have gone in there with all those spiderwebs.
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Here is the proj hanging from the winch cable. The straps are from the first attempt at raising it. Dumb idea.
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And here is the monster mounted up. Colin and I wrestled it into the cradle while Queenie pulled the last two clicks on the winch handle.
More good news is that the Mini is now doing 1080p beautifully. Netflix is really nice.
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Wow!
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Looks good and sturdy.. good job...
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Go big or go home?
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A few tuning sessions here and there the last few days, first fine tuning convergence and then starting to play with color calibration. Unfortunately the cheapo colorimeter I bought used is shot, but I did manage to get a better gray balance by eye. As I learn more about what's going on with this setup I realize that a new green crt is in the future, if I can find one. But even with the worn one the picture is getting pretty amazing.
It's getting to be time to move on to the surround setup. I'm thinking that later in January when I have that completed we will have an open house and folks can come check out the system.
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It's going to be interesting to see how better you like surround vs two channel for movies. These past days I've been thinking a lot about the fallout shelter and I'm struggling between:
An audio room for the big rig with the addition of the crt. I would keep a smaller system at the living room around the WE's.
A 7.1 video room and maintain my audio at the living room.
I like the idea of using the bunker for my horns since I can't really play loud at nights. I'll loose the ability to do multichannel for movies though.
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In addition two channel allow the use of a BH dac.
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Seeing that projector reminds me of the days when we first installed similar projectors on my ship in the combat information center to display contacts. We were always working to keep them focused and it made for a very low overhead. Before that we used a grease pencil on a clear display and wrote everything backwards. Now those were the days.
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Progress on different fronts. First the underground room was discarded as we decided to use some other space that is already built except for one large wall. We'll add new wooden floor and furniture as well as a restroom. The room will approx 6x8 meters. The height at 2.4m will be a little bit on the short side but not terribly bad. This option will significantly reduce cost and time. It should be ready in a few months.
Second the projector has been finished including some extras like some hd mods, the hdmi card and a mod to do a very silent projector even more silent.
Third is that last night we watched The Hobbit and I spent the whole three hours comparing 2.1 vs 5.1. This is 5.1 done right with five identical Pi Pro Four speakers and five identical Paramours with MQ Ni opts. I liked the sound way more on 2.1. A much fuller sound with a better soundstage and "ambience". I'm leaning towards going 2.1 on the new room. Moreover since stereo will allow me to use a BH dac which should wipe the floor with any ht pre/pro. I will continue doing more testing though.
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More testing this morning. The sound is much nicer on stereo. But the correspondence of sound and image is way better with the center speaker. And the center speaker behind the screen instead of under it would be awesome. That's the way I'll go.
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Happy New Year Xavier!
I think skipping the underground room is a wise choice.
I've worked on several projects that included underground rooms and it's always a nightmare. Not only does it multiply the cost and time but there's always a few surprises that come up.
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I've worked on several projects that included underground rooms and it's always a nightmare. Not only does it multiply the cost and time but there's always a few surprises that come up.
It's sounding like you've unearthed an oil tank or two...
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A dead body maybe?
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Hey Xavier, check out some screens before you commit to a perforated fabric one for hiding a center channel. I like my DIY painted masonite screen a lot better than the fabric ones I have seen. We arrived at what we currently use by making a lot of different samples and hanging them over the existing screen until we found the one we were happiest with. Whichever you decide to use make sure you get one with decent gain, and then make sure your room is really dark.
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Thanks. I've been thinking a lot about this. The room will be completely dark so that's great. And indeed a perfectly finished matte white wall would probably work better than a commercial screen.
I can't take out of my mind how much more enjoyable was stereo last night than 5.1, in an action movie! If I decide to go stereo I will put the horns down there and do a wall screen. Not conventional but neither am I. Now that I think about it, weren't my 1940s field coil RCAs built for movie theaters anyway?
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Actually you want a screen with a little gain. A matte white wall is a very good starting point, but you can get more "pop" in the image with just a little bit of material with a higher reflectivity. You don't want to get crazy like the old glass bead slide projector screens because they will hot spot like crazy, but a little bit of pearlescent white with the clear matte overcoat made my picture go from pretty good to really rich and contrasty.
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Thanks.
Great ideas for experimenting!
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Hmm, I suppose you could spray the pearl and matte varnish onto a matte white perforated screen and have the best of both worlds.
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Not to sound like a salesmen and I dont have any affiliation with this company at all but the Screen Innovation Black Diamond screens look really nice.
I have been researching them a bit because I wont have a dedicated room at all so I need something that can be in a standard family room type of set up.
The way that those dont reflect light back into the room is very impressive.
I dont know much about other screens yet because they just really caught my interest the other day as I started searching.
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Doc,
Just to be clear -- this is a pearlescent household paint, not a specialized HT paint. I'm working away on an HT/audio room with an audio priority and a fixed, front-wall screen is my current plan. Some months more work though.
The best HT screen I've ever seen was a big acrylic rear projection screen from a company in Japan that makes many-inches-thick acrylic panels for public acquarium use. It had a goundglass-like surface on the imaging plane, either etched or with and applied layer. Probably cost more than my entire room and its planned contents.
thanks,
Skip
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I can't take out of my mind how much more enjoyable was stereo last night than 5.1, in an action movie! If I decide to go stereo I will put the horns down there and do a wall screen.
I'm definitely a center channel hater, but ultimately 5.1 content really needs the center channel most of the time, otherwise the dialogue always seems to get drowned out. Ultimately, however my hatred of center channels comes from the sideways MTM, and there's no chance that you'd end up using one!
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Yes, all the stuff was Behr products. IIRC I used ultra flat white, then a very thin coat of White Opal pearlescent and then a coat of some Behr water based matte varnish which after all these years has vanished from my paint can shelf. I rolled the paint onto wonderboard with a very short nap roller, with the pearl coat being applied with an almost dry roller. It worked pretty well, but I would do it with a HVLP sprayer next time to avoid the couple of overlaps that the current screen shows. We sprayed a simple ultraflat white screen for Shawn's projector and he seems pretty happy with it.
There is a ton of info, almost too much, on the AVS DIY screen forum. The formula I came up with was derived from some things I read there ten years ago followed by a bunch of my own trial and error. The projects may have progressed quite a bit on that forum since then, though the last time I looked a couple years ago it seemed more like things had stayed pretty much the same rather than evolving. For what it's worth I really disliked the gray screens I tried. The seemingly better blacks came with too much sacrifice of the whites. When in doubt start with Ultra Flat White and go from there.
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I'm definitely a center channel hater, but ultimately 5.1 content really needs the center channel most of the time, otherwise the dialogue always seems to get drowned out. Ultimately, however my hatred of center channels comes from the sideways MTM, and there's no chance that you'd end up using one!
Nope, no MTM crap here.
I'm thinking that since I already have the five identical amps and speakers there's no reason to limit myself to stereo. Moreover because I can alway run stereo if that's what I want.
I have six TL404 autoformers so maybe I should build me a six channel preamp!
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Doc, I hear what you are saying about the whites with the gray screens. That is something I am very curious about.
My biggest interest in them is because I wont have a dedicated theater room when I get something set up.
I have been doing some reading also on the effects the room has on your perception of the video and have decided that the multi-media room needs to be a neutral color like Munsell grey....I wonder what the picture would look like just being projected on a wall that color....
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My experience has been with three different digital projectors and now the CRT. There are differences in each projector's presentation that might have an impact on your choice of colors and how dark to go, but I can say that with the lower output projectors I have used (all around 1200 lumens and varying degrees of contrast ratio - my screen currently reads around 10 ft lamberts with the CRT) I have never had any regrets going with very dark gray sides and back wall and a black ceiling and front wall in my dedicated room. Windows have removable opaque panels with felt on the edges for a light seal. Trim is all dark brown and the rug is an earth tone floral pattern against a black background. Even our chairs are black. I have tried the backlit screen thing that is supposed to make blacks on the image look darker with respect to the wall and didn't like it at all. My screen setup has a movable upper and lower matte made of black velvet covered foamboard to hide the gray bars and adjustable black side curtains with weights attached to the bottom corner to make the edge of the curtain hang as straight as possible when used as a side matte for taking the 16:9 screen down to 4:3.
Bear in mind that I am a movie guy, not a sports fan. So I am maybe happy with a less bright setup than someone who wants to watch sporting events. And for a lighter room you may also need more of a 'light cannon' than the projectors I have used.
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I am similar in the fact that I am more of a movie fan than a sports fan.
The only sport I really watch is USC football...so really not that much. Only other sports I am into is Hokey and Golf....I'd rather go see a live Hockey game and just play golf....
I'll keep all your tips in mind. I dont think I will get away with dark walls at all as my wife wont stand for it. But she is all for the more "neutral" color pallet of the room.
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The most important thing is blackout curtains. Get the daylight out of the room and you have the stray light about 90% licked.
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My room only has a small window. It'll soon be replaced with brick and mortar. The door is on the other side of the room (8 meters away from the screen) and shuts pretty well.
:)
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The projector arrived yesterday.
And a nice pair of Altec A7 VOTT is luring me. I''m struggling with the issue but Voice of the Theater "sounds" right for a home theater.
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The A7s weren't so. Just the drivers. Back to square five (point one).
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That's a good thing. You need to be like 10 meters from A7s to get the full benefit. Nice speakers, just not practical in a normal size room. Your projector looks very nice. I think yours is bigger than mine.
We're watching the last season of Breaking Bad this week. Amazon streaming quality is much better than Netflix. The picture from the CRT is still impressing me every time I watch. Seems like the need for fine tuning is easing up, things are getting pretty stable.
Decided to go with three S.E.X. amps to get the surround setup going. Hope to have the audio system fully operational by the end of the month.
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Amazon streaming quality is much better than Netflix.
Noticed that too.
Hopefully, streaming of all video will improve pretty soon.
Here's a (ad laden) blurb from CES.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/ultra-hd-tv-pushed-by-netflix-amazon-at-ces-2014-1.2488465
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The project keeps moving sideways. The two architects and the builder were here yesterday and we settled many things. However tonight we watched a movie with the kids and I realized my current tv room is just perfect. Less isolated and would require some light treatment but a much cheaper and easier project. The ceiling is too high but i already found a solution to mount the transformer. The audio is installed as is the video equipment. I would need an electric screen to unwrap in front of the tv. And having the room upstairs isn't a negative.
The current seating is perfectly located for a 96" wide screen which is the max Curt recommended. And the throw distance would allow me to fix the projector from the back wall instead than from the ceiling.
I may some day build the other room but for now it looks like I'm sticking to the one I have.
This may change overnight though!
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It makes a lot of sense to simply get a screen up in the existing room and play around with the setup for a while. 96" is what I have. If the room is blacked out you could go bigger, but I suspect the picture would start to seem not sharp enough. That is my only minor compliant about the CRT. The awesome contrast and color from it far outweigh the slightly soft image.
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The issue is simple - Comcast throttles your internet way back when you run Netflix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx13U5W7FQg&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx13U5W7FQg&feature=youtu.be)
Man, we have been fighting with this for years. DSL is not available in the hood, so we are stuck. I have found that the browser can really help with streaming. Safari and Firefox are crap. I like Opera, but Microsoft products, including server software, do not play well with it--maybe because Opera spanked MS in the courts over IE. Chrome does work relatively well. I have no idea why, but playing with the Audio Midi Setup settings in OS X can have a profound effect on the picture quality. Anytime the image has a black/green pixelated look then it is time to go into the AMS and reset to either a lower or higher sample rate, most of the time it wants a lower setting.
Surprised that there has been a class action suit against Comcast/Xfinity. In the Comcast workplace, workers are blocked from sites that compete with Comcast. I upgraded to HD and had a question about EyeTV and the worker could not access anything on it.
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Today I pulled myself together and placed the projector in a temporary setup to start trying it. The first thing I noticed was that at the 107" throw distance that Curt calculated I was getting a smaller image. Checked the manual and it says that for a 96" width the distance should be 127" instead. I pulled it back and voila. Unfortunately in the big installation it will be closer to 107 than 127 so it may not fill the full screen.
Anyway. We noticed that the image came and left and it's clearly the hdmi jack. Until it left completely. Now I only get a No Vsync message. I'm really hoping it's the card. I know I'm not the one with issues with these cards ;)
Another problem is that although the fan is very silent something vibrates. Maybe something got loose on shipping? Will look at that.
On the positive side I learned to reverse the throw (it's on the floor now) and did a lot of adjustments after the signal left. Its easier to adjust than what I expected!
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This was my solution to the flaky input on my g70 card. Works great now.
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=403222#403222
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Thanks Doc,
All is good now (except for the noise that I'll address later). The card connector is flimsy indeed but I also has to select a different input. Don't know why the input changed but i tried input02 and voila.
Thanks
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Ready for prime time.
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Xavier,
You continue to amaze me! You 'da Man!
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Here's where I'm at. Blank screen photo is with the screen set to the full 16:9 96" diagonal format. The Hobbit screen shot is with the masks set to 2.35:1. The camera always struggles with this kind of shot, the image is much better in person. Still need to install all the speakers and finish cable routing. And I see I need to do quite a bit of touch up to the 10 year old paint job (doesn't show in the dark...). With the kids off to college we are really enjoying having a two seat theater.
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This is awesome!
Thanks for the tip Doc.
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He's hooked! There is nothing like the big screen.
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Who me? Should've seen the kids faces!
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A little update - after some conversation with Curt Palme I decided to go from my ten year old slightly pearlescent screen to a matte white screen. Of course it had to be another DIY screen. So I went back to the AVS forum thread on DIY screens. Happily there has been a some balance struck on that forum between a few large personalities dominating the place with their seat of the pants designs and a few thoughtful people who have come along and actually taken measurements of many of the more popular DIY screen choices. What floated to the top was Glidden GLN-9000. It's a $10 quart of paint from Home Depot that was measured as the most neutral screen white the measurer had ever come across.
Down came the screen, off came the velvet frame, and on rolled nearly a quart of the GLN-9000 in two coats. Even before I had the painting done I was getting stoked as the new white was positively dazzling compared to the old yellowish pearlescent coat. Reassembled and back on the wall the image is just a knockout. Having gotten the yellowish tint out of the screen required a bit of tweaking of the color levels, and once I had it close - wow. My concern that the blacks might be a little less black was 180 out. The blacks are even more black than from the old screen. I may actually have to up the brightness (which is actually the black level control) a bit.
So if you have a light controlled front projection HT that can handle a white screen, this movie screen for a sawbuck paint is da' bomb.
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While we were slogging through the epic battle of putting up a new website I was distracting myself during the 'hurry up and wait' moments by ordering some blu rays for the newly revamped theater. Trying to build a modest collection of well remastered classics, like 2001, Casablanca, Lawrence of Arabia, etc. I also picked up a fave that is a lot newer - Sin City. It was the first to arrive and we watched it last night. This high contrast film noir is just amazing coming from a CRT projector.
"Kill him for me, Marv. Kill him good."
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Watched Casablanca night before last. It is as good a blu ray remaster as the reviews suggest, really clean but still having the look of film. Watched Forbidden Planet last night, and once again it is a really nice remaster with a great deal of subtle color and clarity, but without taking away from the film feel. Sound is not yet up to the quality of the picture. I've been using a crummy Extigy-TOSLINKed-to-Samsung BDP-1500 lashup to simulate surround on the all Blumenstein speaker setup, through two Stereomours and a S.E.X. amp. Bought a used Panasonic DMP-BD80 player on ebay last night for cheap. It is one of the few players besides the Oppos that has analog 7.1 outputs and handles DTS-HD Master Audio, so I can run directly into the amps. That should get me another step towards the finished system I have in mind. For those who might wonder - with five Orcas and three subs in the room it can get surprisingly loud.
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My Draper permanently tensioned screen that Curt recommended arrived yesterday. Now the fun begins: installing the screen in front of the TV and the projector to the back wall. When all is said and done I promise to watch Casablanca.
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From the description on the Draper site - matte white, gain of 1.0 - that screen should be very similar to my painted one and work great.
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Today is projector mounting day. I had an l shaped support to attach to the back wall and to hang the projector from it. Unfortunately we went overboard and the base weighs almost as much as the projector. I was ready to abort as i was affraid the six expansion screws could not be safe enough but one of the helping guys had an awesome idea, to use threaded steel bars. The wall is a double one, bricks, space and concrete. I have some amazing stainless steel bars from a diy audio rack project. Two will support the structure. Absolutely safe. Pics and more to follow.
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Support
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Here we go
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One rod across!
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That looks great, beefy as heck. Are you going to hang the projector underneath the shelf or put it on top? If you put it underneath, I will make a suggestion based upon my experience in hanging my G70. Even though my measurements are "perfect" with respect to the projector and the screen being perpendicular I wish I had just a little bit more side to side and front to back adjustment. My mount had slots in it, and even with those I ran out of the last tiny little bit of twist I seem to need to get the focus perfect across the screen.
The used Panasonic player I bought ended up having a worn out blue laser, apparently very common on this model. Luckily the seller immediately refunded my money. I'm holding back on doing it right and buying an Oppo player to finish the system as we just bought a new bed to replace our 18 year old one (holy crap! beds are expensive), and we have been offered a sweet deal on a friend's car that we are looking at Monday. So I spent the afternoon on yet another projector tuning session while I daydreamed about the new player. Center raster, flap, center focus, edge focus, EM focus, mechanical convergence, center raster, size, linearity, skew, bow, key, pin, bias, gain, all times 3. AAAAHHHHHHHH! But each time I get the image a little tighter and the color a little better.
You are so gonna love that setup.
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I should also mention that as much as I love the new screen painted with the the Glidden white paint I realized that I was having to burn the CRTs pretty hard to get a decent lumen level. So I have ordered a sheet of Wilsonart designer white laminate, that darling of the DIY screen community. It's supposed to be very close color-wise and has a higher gain of around 1.25 without much hotspotting, which should let me turn the wick down a bit on the light cannons.
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We ran out of time today. I'm very happy as it will end up being very safe which is my priority. Unfortunately not much chance to play with position. I'll save that for whenever we build the new room. It'll hang from underneath and the holes are all set. Hope I can set it up goodly enough.
My draper screen also has 1.3 gain: "Draper Pure White XT1300V offers a 30% boost in brightness over a traditional matt white surface while still maintaining an extremely wide viewing cone, with half gain angle over 90 degrees. No color shift at any angle, excellent white field uniformity. Available with black backing and without".
One additional week to wait!
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Just leave yourself a little room to play with the screen position and you should be fine. That Draper should be just the ticket.
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Woo hoo! The Oppo BDP-103D (thanks to the buyer of my personal Stereomour for financing the purchase) and the sheet of Wilsonart laminate for the new screen both arrived today. Can you say "movie weekend"?
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I'm a little envious of you two! Being in the military with moves every two to three years keeps me from trying something similar.
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I have four people scheduled tomorrow at 8:00am to finish mounting the projector and screen. And Monday is a holiday. So I can indeed say movie (long) weekend.
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I have one person scheduled. I hope I show up on time. Here's reason for the tight budget on the project lately. We just commited to buy one of these for Eileen -
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mercedesbenzcolors.info%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F05%2F2002-Mercedes-Benz-C-Class-C230-Coupe-1.jpg&hash=d4102a891dbf2803c5b0f7f0f1da7c476a304d05)
That will be the new car, 'new' meaning the only one we have that is less than 20 years old.
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C car?
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Yeah, another one. We are loaning Kate the 94 C220 for school, and my 88 300CE is coming together very slowly. So this 02 C230 coupe will be the corporate hauler for taking packages to the post office, getting supplies and such. It's supercharged, but being a Benz it's heavy for its size. They called it a "sport coupe". I would call it a hatchback with heart. It's not a rush like my friend's Hayabusa powered MR2, but it can definitely get out of its own way and the six speed manual is pretty fun. It will actually be Benz #4 in the family as Colin has a 93 190E 2.6.
Back on the off-topic - the first play of the Oppo is very positive. Great sound, and the Darbee video processing when used with moderation helps counteract the softness of the CRT image in a subtle way.
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Congrats to the Queen on the Mercedes!
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Yes!
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Looking good
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And safe
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:)
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A nicer shot.
It's a little bit on the high side. Can the screws on the front be extended to provide more inclination? Maybe even using longer screws?
I tested it last night. Except for the image a little bit on the high side it works perfectly. Today is screen mounting day and then the adjustment process should start. The good thing is that even though you can spend thousand of hours adjusting a first quick one will get you close enough to make the image very enjoyable.
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That looks awesome. And I am impressed with your courage being the test weight. You're really going to love seeing it on a proper screen.
Yesterday I felt like I got the last few kinks out of my HT. Once I got the surround sound going I found a sub driver was unfortunately blown by a flaky amp, so I "subbed a sub" from the office. I also got the last bit of focus issue about 98% resolved. Colin and I watched Bladerunner final cut last night. Absolutely stunning remaster, the best I have seen and heard in our theater. Extra impressive considering it's a 25 or so year old film.
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Yes!!!!!!!
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I'm barely keeping up with you. Just installed the Wilsonart designer white laminate screen this afternoon. Gain is up from 1.0 to 1.25.
Now we are talking! Finally getting to that looking through a window feel. I think I am done d***ing around and ready to just kick back and watch a lot of movies.
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I think I am done d***ing around
That does not sound like the Doc B I know!
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I meant for the day.
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We played the first movie with the kids. Fell asleep. Been two busy days! Need to work a little bit more on the adjustment but that's only noticeable with the credits or menus. The image is still on the soft side but amazing. And the sound coming from the oppo is twenty times better than the pro onkyo pro. Particularly the bass. An explosion used to be booooooom. Now its BOOM. Good tip.
The good news is. Tomorrow is a Holiday!
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One of my tests of a good sound system is if I can fall asleep in front of it. Not sure if the same applies to video though. Get used to the small CRT adjustments, as it seems the need for them never goes away. I just do a quick touchup of the convergence before I plan to watch something "serious". Takes all of a minute.
Last night we experimented with connecting a new USB 3.0 4TB external drive that Colin had loaded with movies. The Oppo pretty much instantly found the drive and it is very quick and easy to navigate through the folders. I also ran the HDMI out of the Mac Mini to the HDMI input of the Oppo to allow use of the sound processor and the Darbee chip. That works quite well too. The Oppo is very impressive in how well it does all the stuff it is supposed to be able to do.
And I have to say that though some friends have suggested that movies are better with a stereo system than surround, I am really digging finally having a decent quality surround setup. The feeling of immersion with a good soundtrack really adds to the event. The Orcas seem quite up to the job. We've had a home theater for something like 10 years now and I feel like it's finally approaching what I had in mind when I started on the journey.
I would like to have people over to show the system off. We're thinking about April 12th. The room is small so we would have to sort of do the room in shifts. So we are thinking we'll do an open house for a few hours on that Saturday.
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I joke with my wife all the time that I' d spent lots of time and money on my system and I almost always fall asleep before side B is over so I guess I pass the test.
Last night after my nap I did more adjustments. And put a bluray of The Magic Flute. Total immersion is indeed the right description. Although for an opera I kike the two channel a little bit better.
Now to start planning the preamp. Yesterday I took the onkyo out as well as an old oppo dvd and that opened me space for three BH dacs and the preamp. I found a six deck make before break eleven position rotary to build a volume control. Don't think eleven position is enough range though. Maybe something with coarse and fine as the latest BH design.
I know things can change but the latest on the BH dac is 2.0v output and 600 ohm output impedance right?
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. . . I found a six deck make before break eleven position rotary to build a volume control. Don't think eleven position is enough range though. . . .
Xavier,
If it goes to 11 it should be good. (Tongue-in-cheek!)
I had an ACR preamp that had a full range of steps and 5 ranges. I believe I could reach the right volume in all 5 ranges. Which makes it redundant. Three ranges would be more than enough. IMHO.
P.S. Friday is the last day of this contract. They are talking bringing me back this summer.
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In one month I'll go to Sicily with my wife, parents and the two oldest kids. I'm trying to read about Sicily and bought some movies. Tonight we watched Divorce Italian Style. In glorious mono and black and white. Awesome!
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If you are digging black and white watch Rififi. A classic jewel heist film.
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Completely OT, but we were in Sicily last fall - don't miss Agrigento on the south coast! Yes it's a pain to get to, and driving is insane, but worth it all! And if you're going to be around Syracuse, read Ovid - a lot of the Metamorphoses takes place around there, and the landscape hasn't changed much in two millenia.
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Syracuse and Agrigento are definitely part of the itinerary. I'm traveling with Dr Cortés Rocha, phd in architecture with specialty in neo classicism in the Mexican architecture, so all the roman and greek classics are included. I tried to squeeze in a golf course but I lost. I'll add reading Ovid to the getting there check list.
Thanks
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The Sicilian carousel starts in three weeks so tonight we watched The Leopard. The Italian spoken mono version. I love this big screen thing!
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Half way through Sicily. Time for a small refresh in Agrigento. Paul. Check this pic out!
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This site needs a like button option :) Have fun my friend!
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Don't you just hate it when they don't maintain the pool house?
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Awesome pic Xavier!
Enjoy!