Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Reduction => Topic started by: corndog71 on December 03, 2013, 05:22:17 PM
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So the plan is to build stock, evaluate, compare (I own a Cambridge Audio 640P and have a Musical Fidelity V-LPS on loan), add Integration, evaluate and compare, upgrade tubes to RAM tested, evaluate and compare, upgrade caps, evaluate and compare.
Oh and during all of this: enjoy the music! :)
I will say it's nice to have such a thick plate to work on. It looks twice as thick as my old Foreplay II.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2FBottlehead%2520Reduction%2FIMG_8081_zps83261824.jpg&hash=1c39749c254c2b0607606c7a5a4f54dd055bffce)
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Looks like you have quite a weekend ahead of you!
(FYI - the last 3 RAM 6922's I had my hands on were the same Russian 6922's that go in the stock Reduction)
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That is a substantially larger transformer than the Seduction. Of course there are a number of other refinements too.
I'm glad to hear that the plates were thickened. Tthe Eros plate is too. I admit, I hadn't noticed.
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It is done.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2FBottlehead%2520Reduction%2FIMG_8113_zps1ad14ffe.jpg&hash=6d3e787a75e65768d026eb7f9138ba1a28be213f)
Everything went together perfectly! I have a quibble about no mention of clipping excess leads but otherwise great instructions. Resistance and voltage checks were right in range. I still have to finish my box as I don't have anything for that except for wood glue.
I've got lots of record playing to do. It sounds pretty good so far!
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2FBottlehead%2520Reduction%2FIMG_8121_zps2bbc8297.jpg&hash=d117d0687d3c7b407f3120ef05e0e322e3abac88)
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Congratulations!
It looks like a nice build. But where are the works? That deserves a picture too.
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Ok.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2FBottlehead%2520Reduction%2FIMG_8100_zps3684bc0a.jpg&hash=62c0980ef1fe654bef9a8237d985016365593614)
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Wow! I bet the manual isn't that clean a build.
I'm impressed!
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Nice build! I see you have the Integration upgrade ready to be, well, integrated!
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Nice job on the build!
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Nice build! I see you have the Integration upgrade ready to be, well, integrated!
Yep. I'm going to live with it stock for a month or so before I add Integration. I really want to pimp it out but I'm trying to be patient and give it a fair chance.
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Wow! I bet the manual isn't that clean a build.
I'm impressed!
Nice job on the build!
Thanks, guys. I just followed the directions. :)
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It's been a couple of weeks and I just wanted to report that my stock Reduction seems to have settled down. It sounds quite good and if I knew nothing about upgrading I could easily live with it.
I haven't done direct comparisons just yet to the other phono preamps in my stable but so far it seems pretty competitive in the $300-400 range. I think depth is even a little better but again I still have to listen to the others to be sure. Hopefully I'll get a chance here sometime this week.
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Before upgrading my Reduction I had the opportunity to compare it to a couple of solid state phono preamps.
I've owned a Cambridge Audio 640P for around 4 years and felt like it was a pretty decent piece for the money. (I think I paid $180 back in 2010) Prior to this I used the optional phono preamp built into my Bryston B60 from 1999. I thought the B60's phono was pretty solid.
A friend was kind enough to loan me his Musical Fidelity VLPS for comparison as well. Both the 640P and the VLPS were powered by their respective wall warts.
Source is Rega P25 with Shure V15VxMR. Preamp is my Bottlehead Quickie. Amp is my modified Dynaco ST35. Speakers are AV123 X-Statik.
After living with the Reduction in stock form for about a month I felt like it had settled down enough to compare. I would play a track and then swap cables to the other device and then play the track again. Switching time was about 8-10 seconds.
Here are the notes I took:
Reduction sound seems limited to the width of my rack (centered between the speakers). Vocals have a nice liveliness but everything else seems a bit constricted. Still, not unpleasant.
VLPS has a bigger and bolder sound that stretched to the walls. Deeper bass. Good separation of instruments.
640P has a flatter presentation with little depth although the soundstage stretched out to the width of my speakers. In comparison the 640P seemed a bit boring.
In the next test I wanted to make sure volume levels were matched for each device as they didn't seem matched.
Reduction bass doesn't go as deep as the others but seems tighter and better defined. Soundstage is more laid back behind my rack which I favor. Trying different tracks also allowed the stage to move wider to the speakers.
VLPS is more forward sounding in comparison with some vocals right up in my face. Still, excellent bass.
The Reduction and 640P are closer in performance. The trade-offs are better depth from the Reduction and better bass from the 640P. Vocals seemed slightly better through the reduction vs the 640P. Of the two I preferred the Reduction.
Out of the three the VLPS was the clear winner. From top to bottom it brought a great energy and verve to the music with excellent bass. I didn't care for the more forward presentation but that's the only quibble I have.
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I recently installed the C4S upgrade (not including Shunt Regulator) and will be making some additional comparisons sometime soon. So far I like what I'm hearing. It seems a bit clearer than stock. Separation of instruments seems better as does overall width of image. The bottom end still seems a bit weak but it could've been recording dependent. It's not a dramatic difference but as the night went on I found myself pulled into a song several times. It seems a bit more infectious.
More to come!
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So I made several changes to my rig so any further comparisons are probably moot. I was going through my box 'o tubes and found a pair of Ei Yugo 6922 which I had gotten for my Foreplay 2 many years ago. I never optimized the circuit for them and so they went into the stash. Out of curiosity I plugged them into the Reduction and they were a nice step up from the stock tubes. A little bit more depth and space. Love it! I'm still waiting on my replacement shunt regulator board which is en route. That'll be fun. And I broke down and swapped out the Dayton .47uF caps with a pair of V-Caps I stole from my Sex Amp. And then I added better bypass caps to the caps in my speakers which really jacked up dynamic swings! Bass is pounding now!
See what I mean? Too many changes to really quantify it all but right now my rig has never sounded better! My new VTA ST120 amp is the real stand out! The music is more detached from the speakers. More vibrant. Still not the best I've heard but I expected that. My tweeters while very good can still be bested by others.
Nevertheless, my Reduction and Quickie are really shining through and I'm still not finished with the former. I ordered some more caps for it because a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do. 8) Love this stuff!
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Nice review! Out of curiosity, what cart are you using?
Update: saw it : Shure V15...
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That's it. That's another item that needs replacing. I've been using it for around 10 years. I've used it sparingly and it still sounds decent but I would really love to hear another cartridge. Hmmm...that could be a goal for this year.
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Rob,
An option for your cartridge is to replace the stylus.
I have a Shure M97eX with JIM SAN stylus and it was a major upgrade over the factory stylus.
http://stylus.export-japan.com/product_info.php?products_id=1524
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I took advantage of a sale Partsconnexion was having on Clarity TC caps and picked up a pair of 110uF 700V film caps. The idea was to replace the last 220uF power supply cap. I tried to get a single 220uF cap but those were all sold out. Anyway, I paralleled the two caps.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2FBottlehead%2520Reduction%2FIMG_8645_zps6889cca6.jpg&hash=2859e3bc143ade6228cd0ac9f0cc8863bb3507b0)
They took up a bit more room than I had hoped for.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2FBottlehead%2520Reduction%2FIMG_8648_zpsf3b10990.jpg&hash=4a2b8c5d1fcc5acaf699e54f8dc012e3486338ec)
I grabbed my Sex Amp box to see if stacking them might be a viable alternative. It would but then I would need another box for my sex amp.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2FBottlehead%2520Reduction%2FIMG_8649_zps07d99516.jpg&hash=20b43e24bbb829621ef41d561489c6848085bc37)
For the time being I just wired up a little extra wire and am letting them lay loose. This is temporary until I can come up with a better arrangement.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2FBottlehead%2520Reduction%2FIMG_8656_zps419e44a1.jpg&hash=e140272e3d4cd6642f633db1b97ea2a1fe39d720)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2FBottlehead%2520Reduction%2FIMG_8659_zps0224118e.jpg&hash=e31c99f62e314e1d656f90f188f78472ba2aae1d)
I'm not certain the change is obvious but I can't complain. Soundstage width and separation of instruments is fantastic!
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I'd order up a 10" x 12" base, then have an extra aluminum plate that's 4" x 10" made to fit next to the Reduction chassis in the base. That would give you some room for mounting caps (pop some holes in the extra chassis plate to let them poke through).
-PB
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I'd order up a 10" x 12" base, then have an extra aluminum plate that's 4" x 10" made to fit next to the Reduction chassis in the base. That would give you some room for mounting caps (pop some holes in the extra chassis plate to let them poke through).
-PB
That's a nice creative idea although the idea of cutting holes that big seems a bit daunting. These caps are 60mm wide! I guess I could pay someone else to do it.
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Oddly enough, I've had very good luck using a hole saw to cut through sheet aluminum. You'll want to clamp the piece to a piece of plywood so you have something to drill into, then use medium speed, low pressure, and some cutting fluid (WD-40 seems OK) to keep things lubricated, cool, and clean.
If you get a piece of steel by accident, I wont' be able to help you much there ;)
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It was a good weekend to make some changes so I thought I'd swap in my Russian caps for fun. I used K40Y-9 PIO 0.01uF, and K42Y-2 PIO .1uF and .47uF caps. I wrapped the metal-bodied .01 caps in teflon tape to be on the safe side.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2FBottlehead%2520Reduction%2FIMG_8984_zps217ec883.jpg&hash=9bc8dc98a0a88a137991e41839b2315054c53e6c)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi576.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss207%2Fcorndog642%2FBottlehead%2520Reduction%2FIMG_8993_zps0c26e2ca.jpg&hash=79ccebea337418f891a750ba52912a9a6caba484)
Ok, I'm becoming a believer in these PIO caps. They're still breaking in but right away they sound terrific. Not really missing the V-caps I had in there either.
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Nice touch on the Teflon wrap!
If you can find them, 100+V rated polystyrene caps are nice for the EQ.