Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Phono => Topic started by: madbrayniak on December 04, 2013, 04:57:33 AM
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Good Morning all,
Does anyone on here have much experience with the vintage turntables?
I have been doing alot of reading and it seems to me that some of the best ones to keep an eye out for are
Micro Seiki (BL and RX models)
Thorens(TD124, 125, and 160)
Garrard(301 and 401)
Lenco(L75)
Technics (SP10)
Linn Sondek
Most of these will cost me close to a grand+ to find in good working order but I was wondering if anyone could tell me of any other turntable to keep an eye out for?
My wife is pretty much in love with the Micro Seiki BL-51 and BL-91 cosmetically and I cant say I blame her. However, those are also pretty hard to find. Heck, most of these are pretty tough to find!
Any thoughts on this would be helpful. Heck, let me know if some of them that I listed above are also really not worth the money.
Best,
B
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I sold the 125 and 160 Thorens, and once got loan of a Technics SP15. We were a Panasonic dealer and the rep had one.
I'm partial to belt drives because of the isolation. I have had many idler wheel drives, but not the high torque ones like the Garrard tables.
I also sold the Linn when it came out. I preferred the Thorens TD-125 II. And I can't tell you why.
Maybe you should look for a Transcriptors Skeleton, your wife just might like it:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg7%2FGrainger49%2FFor%2520Posts%2520Private%2FSkeletonTT_zps9c1172d1.jpg&hash=ccdc364b25553626f8e2490d99ec4c036229b767)
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I have a well built TD 124 that will be going up for sale soon due to lack of use. I prefer my DD table both in sonics and ease of use. The idlers are great and if you want the best bang for your buck, go the Empire route.
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You have a good list up there. I'd add the "DD" models from Micro Seiki. I have been unusually happy with my DD-40.
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How many records do you own?
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I would also take a look at VPI HW19's. They were TOTL for VPI for several years before the introduction of the TNT series. They are still supported by VPI. Many of the current platter/bearing combos can be retrofitted. (Although, IMO, not always an upgrade. i.e. the all acrylic platters.) Takes almost any arm.
I have a bunch of vintage TT's, Empire, Thorens TD124, TD160. TD150, Lenco Rondine..... The HW19 easily bested them all in most sonic aspects.
Cheers,
Geary
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that VPI looks great. I hadnt heard much about that one in the past but I will look into it more. I have also seen the price on them on ebay and it's more in the range that I am willing to pay.
VPI has always been one of my favorites, atleast in the looks department for their classic series of tables.
I have been considering trying to build on of my own as I have a few ideas O would like to try out. However, I have not idea where I would start.
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I've had the 301 for eight years. Love it more each day.
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Sota Sapphire can be had used for reasonable money. Mine has an Infinity Black Widow arm and a wood body Grado cart, very refined sound ;D
Robert Lees
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I have a Thorens TD 160. I changed a lot of things, inside and outside, and it works perfectly! You can find all infos for the upgrades at a website called Analog Dept.
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i have a linn sondek-and i have a AR ES1-and a AR XA--the linn is my favorite even though at the moment the AR ES1 is what i use the most --i am not sure how the ES1 rates as a audiophile turntable and mine is stock except for the plywood and lead sandwich that i replaced the bottom cover with-i would like to own a thorens -dave archembault at vinylnirvana has both AR and thorens at times- rt now it looks like all thorens and all sold- the site is informational -here is the link
http://vinylnirvana.com/
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Another possible consideration is George Merrill's latest take on the ES1, a Merrill ES-R1 Replica. http://www.gmanalog.com/es-turntable.php
The Jelco tonearms available with the ES-R1 work well with low compliance cartridges, like the Denon DL-103 and 103R. No platter mat required, as the platter includes a serious integral cork/rubber facing (same with the sub-platter) that obviates the need for a good mat, a la Merrill-Williams $5,995 R.E.A.L. turntable. The 'table is suspended and uses a lot of non-resonant polymer to eliminate resonance, from the sub-platter, platter and armboard, to the pulley. It uses the same A/C synchronous motor used in the Merrill Heirloom.
It is designed to work with a center clamp and outer ring. The TT Weights 200 gram center clamp and 480 g. outer ring seem to work really well.
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Some of you guys have some great turntables!
I'm really liking the idea of the HW19 because they can be had for a good price. I also like the idea of the VPI Traveler since it is so reasonably priced as well.
I should have made this clear sooner but I want to keep the price at about 1k or lower for right now. I have a few records and I am slowly collecting them but I dont actually have a turntable right now. I never have had one but have always been interested in them.
I was looking at the Project Debut Carbon but my wife really like the vintage look and the Project Designs dont have that at all.
VPI Classic series I think does the best about being new but keeping that retro vibe going on.
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Don't spend anywhere near a kilobuck on a first table. Get a direct drive Japanese table from the '80s. Spend 200 bucks tops, including the cartridge, at your local used audio emporium. Vinyl is a crazy hobby that gets really expensive really fast, and right now you don't know how much you even care about it. Throwing a bunch of cash at equipment won't tell you anything you can't figure out at a lower pricepoint, and you can spend the savings where it matters-on records.
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I'm with Josh, start out not too expensive and make sure you really like the whole ritual. Though I would go belt drive over cheap DD - just my taste. An original Thorens TD-150 or 160 can be had for a reasonable sum and is pretty nice. A Philips 212 is another decent table for cheap. Get a decent used cartridge and you should get nice sound.
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I am much more inclined to spend less. However, I still want something of decent quality to last me a long time until I decide I want to upgrade.
I mention the VPI Classic and Traveler line simply due to the fact that I like their looks. I am not considering them for purchase.
Sorry, I am not great at getting across what I am thinking much of the time.
Right now the top of my list are
Micro Seiki BL51 or BL91
Thorens TD160
VPI HW19.
I have seen all of those hovering around 500 area at different times.
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I'm using a Thorens TD 125 MkII with the TP 16 arm and Shure M97xE JICO SAS Stylus and could not be happier.
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I am using a Merrill modified AR XA, SME IIIs arm mounted with Audio Technica 440MLa cartridge.
You might also want to look at later models of AR turntables. There modification/update parts available from this source:
http://vinylnirvana.com/ar-replacement-upgrade-parts/
I have purchased the replacment pulley shown here and I believe it made a noticable difference in speed stability. Poke around the site and see other suggestions for mods/updates, many DIY.
I have no connection with David Archambault/Vinyl Nirvana other then as a customer.
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Paully and I both use vintage VPI HW19s. Mine is a no "Mk" on the serial number sticker, so first iteration. The chassis, platter and top plate have been upgraded.
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I have an original Rega Planar 3 which is around 35 years old, as far as I am concerned that's vintage. It's a classic un-sprung turntable with belt-drive and AC synchronous motor. Introduced in 1977 according to Google. I have been quiet happy with it and its a doddle to set up and use with a very engaging sound which I like.
Its fitted with a similarly vintage P77 cartridge which is soon to be upgraded after biting the bullet for the addition of a exotic sounding Jaco SAS stylus 1 stylus, which is due to arrive any day now its been a long wait! With my growing diy confidence I have been contemplating if my new found abilities might stretch to a rewire of the original arm.
A laminated wood isolation platform/sand box is also high on the to do list, something that the Rega will sit in rather than on top of. It does not really need it but vainly it will transform it in the looks department and be much nicer to look at in the house rather than just sitting on the sideboard top as it does at the moment. It would be nice if it also helps with the sound. There is a reasonable upgrade path of components available for those who feel the need.
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/5405402/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2F7%2F7b%2F900x900px-LL-7bb47278_007.jpeg&hash=47c72a08ada763e1df8b4a9905789d36049bc7ed)
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http://uturnaudio.com/turntables/
No affiliation and no experience with them, but these look interesting for a pretty low investment. And easy to use out of the box, presumably. Pretty much a Rega clone: probably not as nice, but also much cheaper.
I use and really like a heavily modified Lenco, but I wouldn't recommend it as a starting point based on the time, money, and experience needed to get it where I want it performance wise.
Brent
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Thanks for the U-Turn page, I have never heard of them before.
I see 35 years old as vintage as well for that Planar 3.
The main reason I want vintage tables is because of the fact that so many of your entry tables seem to be much more limited as far as how you can upgrade them. Atleast when you look at getting a new table like the Project Carbon Debut for instance.
I want to be able to mod/upgrade whatever I wind up with which is why I was looking at vintage.
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that (limited upgradability) would probably be true for the u turn too. just throwing it out there 'cuz it's so cheap but probably decent enough to get a feel for the vinyl experience.
i obviously like vintage tables too :) . FWIW, it's possible to get a Lenco that's ready to run for maybe $300 or so, but it's a real crap shoot between a seller's description, knowledge, and what happens during packing and shipping. & i've no experience with the arm that usually ships with them: mine came with a much less common s-arm that i used for a while before i went completely nuts disassembling and reconfiguring the turntable.
anyway, good luck. if you're into bottlehead gear, no doubt you have at least some idea of what you'd be getting yourself into and are willing to (or will just plain enjoy) getting it to work the way you want it to.
Brent
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If you do go the VPI HW route, think seriously about going up one step from the Jr so you can have an armboard. Shouldn't put you over the $1K mark I think though I haven't looked recently. It is nice to be able to upgrade the tonearm later if you want to and still be able to use the rest of the turntable. The lack of an armboard on the Jr. is what kept me away from it as I was always planning on using a linear tracking arm on it. Anyway, gives you more flexibility later.
By the way, my first turntable was a DD Realistic and cost $15 at a garage sale. Worked fine. Then I went to Thorens, then the VPI.
Also, if someone mentioned this and I didn't see it I apologize, but a cleaning system is going to be absolutely necessary to really enjoy your records. It can be as cheap as a Gem Dandy (I build my own) or a Spin Clean or you can get a vacuum cleaning machine for $200 on up (unless you build your own). As was indeed mentioned, this can get real expensive very quickly, but my personal experience is you have to have a record cleaning system.
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Paully is forgetting a Rega table, at least I think I remember he had one.
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Oh yea, that Rega. The reason I went to Linear Tracking.
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Have issues with the Rega? Your post seems to have an air of annoyance to me toward the Rega
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Paully went from the Rega (unsuspended) to the Thorens TD-150 (suspended). He moved his Rega 300 arm from one to the other. He strongly preferred the Thorens. I don't think it was a slight to the Rega table or arm, more a preference for the suspended sound.
But it was the begging of problems with inner groove distortion. So he went to a Souther arm very similar to the one I have had for 20+ years.
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Yea, it was inner groove distortion. No matter how much I screwed with the anti-skate I couldn't get it fixed. Aligned the cartridge, realigned it, and realigned it. No good. Putting the tracking weight up to something like 5g was the only thing that helped. Not a long term solution. I don't want to condemns all Regas. Mine could have had a one off issue I couldn't locate. And plenty of people have regular tonearms generally, and Regas specifically, that don't have this problem. I couldn't get it licked. Knowing Grainger I was familiar with his 80s Souther linear tracking tonearm and like it and I could afford it. So I saved my pennies and bought VPI with the armboard so I could mount the Souther on it and knew IGD was not an issue with his. At this point it is doubtful I would bother with anything else soon. To better it would cost a lot, I love the linear tracker, and I personally wouldn't want a turntable without a nice screw down record clamp like the VPI has.
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That's interesting Paully, I have had no trouble like that with my current arm and cartridge set up and have the tracking force set at 2.13g I could probable knock it down a fraction lower as well.
Fingers crossed switching to the new stylus which has a boron cantilever and Micro Ridge stylus, tracking should be further improved and tracking force reduce to 1.25
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Absolutely, I don't condemn Regas or regular tonearms. I always wondered if my anti-skate mechanism was just messed up. Regardless, the linear tracking tonearm didn't even have a counterweight mechanism so I felt comfortable with the whole concept of align it and call it good. So I am darn happy with my current setup. Works for me!
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Jamie,
I was selling audio gear when 1/4g tracking first came into being. It has been my experience that it is tricky. I keep my cartridge(s) set at the high end of the range.
YMMV!
Let us know what you think.
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Ditto on the vpi hw comments. I own an hw19 Mk iv with TNT platter parts. VPI is a great company too, family owned (I still think) based in New Jersey.
If you want to spend a few hundred less, look at the systemdek iix. I owned one before upgrading to the vpi.
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I am firmly in the DD camp. I have a relatively high end JVC from the late 70's and it sounds incredible. I have compared it to multi thousand dollar tables that revolve through my friend's house and every time it comes out on top. Also, being automatic has its perks. Check out the Quartz Lock tables from JVC. You won't be disappointed.
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That is quite a statement...
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I have the luxury of paying nothing for the table as it was my father's since it was brand new. It is a JVC QL-F6 and it sounds fantastic. After nothing more than a thorough cleaning, tuneup, 12 lbs of plasticine, new phono cable and platter mat, and a well setup DL110, I am loving the sound this table makes. It is absolutely wonderful and the money I have saved has been spent on a step up device, a Seduction, a Quickie and now a SEX to run my Klipsch Heresies. Now, I don't pretend to know everything about this incredibly subjective hobby of ours but I love the music it is making more and more every day. I guess that is what it is all about. The reason I endorsed the JVC tables is because they are great value and the prices aren't as high as the Technics tables these days.
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I started off with a Technics SL-Q2 - direct drive, quartz lock, semi-auto. It worked and sounded great - and importantly I found out I don't mind the extra care and side flipping that vinyl adds. I finally stepped up to a VPI Classic and I've got to say - I don't think I will ever have to get another turntable. There is always something epic about plopping down a record onto 25lbs of platter. Still - sometimes I do miss the auto arm return on the Technics! *Sniffle* :)
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Yes JM, I do believe you... :) JVC is very often overlooked as a viable choice in favor of other brands, but they DO have great engineers as well... I agree... and nice to hear your review as well.. This is what I meant as "quite a statement"..
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Thanks Chris. I wasn't sure what you meant so I wanted to clarify. I am a DD er for life just like I am now a Bottlehead for life. I've always loved music but my discovery of vinyl and DIY tube gear in the last two years has really made it so much more fulfilling and enjoyable. I try to talk about my JVC whenever I can, just so people know there are other options out there.
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I will certainly look at the vintage JVC turtables a bit more.
I have to say, I am very curious about Vinyl as a playback medium. If anything I can see it as a way to sit down and enjoy it more.
Like when you take the time to cook a nice meal. You take the time to clean your record and drop the needle. You dont WANT to do multiple things when you take the time to do something you enjoy. Forcing yourself basically to slow down and relax.
Just like not taking a cell phone, tablet, or laptop on vacation!
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I will certainly look at the vintage JVC turtables a bit more.
I have to say, I am very curious about Vinyl as a playback medium. If anything I can see it as a way to sit down and enjoy it more.
Like when you take the time to cook a nice meal. You take the time to clean your record and drop the needle. You dont WANT to do multiple things when you take the time to do something you enjoy. Forcing yourself basically to slow down and relax.
Just like not taking a cell phone, tablet, or laptop on vacation!
Exactly! And, that meditation on music can be done without spending huge sums. Enjoy your journey.
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YEP!
I don't get how some people seem to live life in the 100 mile per hour lane. I was doing that for a bit when I first got out of college but I soon realized that I couldn't handle it.
So for the last year or a bit longer my wife and I have been trying to learn how to live a simpler life. We have been getting rid of alot of pointless junk. Learning to enjoy not having the TV on. Eating better meals(not necessarily healthier ones, it shows... :-\ )
And we have been pushing away technology in many ways. Being "connected" seems to make you busier all the time! Heck, my other hobby is building computers and I say that!
We are still working on "purging" our lives too. Trying to own less as the more you own the messier the house tends to stay. Next step will be to downsize the house entirely. We love to travel so we would rather have a small house and be able to invest and retire younger and travel the world....
So I pretty much KNOW I will enjoy LP records. Cause it seems to just fit with me and my life style. Just need to get into it.
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Remember Will Ferrell in a movie where he was booted out of his house by his wife and was living in the front yard with all of his stuff and the thing most precious to him was his TT and vinyl.. And he hooked it up in the yard and was playing it... I have to say, I totally understood him...haha Maybe, we all do...
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I read somewhere on here that some of you find the DL-103 to sound good but a little dull.
I was wondering if anyone had heard some of these modified DL-103 like the one from Zu Audio? Supposedly the few changes that they have made to it have yeilded some vast improvements in the treble and bass range in particular.
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No (I use a DL-103R, which sounds great to my ears and which cost about USD $279 from Comet Supply, delivered), but I've got a preliminary question for you: Have you looked at any information about optimizing the relationship between cartridge compliance on one hand, and the effective mass of your tonearm on the other?
If not, try going to Vinyl Engine. You can use one of their tools to see if a given cartridge is a good match with whatever tonearm you plan to use (or, the tonearm that already comes with the 'table you're buying).
Try this: http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php
Just find and enter the effective mass of the tonearm in the small 'window' and hit "Submit". The tool will take you to a color-coded chart that helps identify good matches between (i) cartridge weight and compliance and (ii) a given tonearm.
If I've got this straight, the idea is to keep the resonant frequency of the combined arm and cartridge system low enough so that it doesn't materially add to the energy imparted to the stylus and cantilever (and thus the cartridge motor) by the record grooves. The chart is not the gospel (there is way more to tonearm design than effective mass, and some combinations that the chart doesn't indicate as optimum sound good anyway), but it's a good cheat sheet for those of us who are not engineers.
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I am not familiar with that chart that you linked me to but I am familiar with the idea that with a light compliance cart you need a heavy arm and vice versa.
That chart though looks like it would be a great think to bookmark!
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So for the last year or a bit longer my wife and I have been trying to learn how to live a simpler life. We have been getting rid of alot of pointless junk.
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So I pretty much KNOW I will enjoy LP records. Cause it seems to just fit with me and my life style. Just need to get into it.
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I read somewhere on here that some of you find the DL-103 to sound good but a little dull.
Getting into vinyl would not be a good way to live a simpler life, and going down the low output moving coil trail even less so. If you're all about convenience and space economy, a music server will really be a better way to go.
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If the resonant frequency of a cartridge/tonearm system is below about 8 Hz, it will resonate when you play a warped record. If it is above about 12 Hz, it will resonate when you play a record with strong low audible frequencies. Either case will cause visible shaking of the cartridge and audible mis-tracking.
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Either case will cause visible shaking of the cartridge and audible mis-tracking.
IIRC, the Cardas test/setup record tests for this. Of course this also means you need to already own the arm and cartridge...
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So for the last year or a bit longer my wife and I have been trying to learn how to live a simpler life. We have been getting rid of alot of pointless junk.
...
So I pretty much KNOW I will enjoy LP records. Cause it seems to just fit with me and my life style. Just need to get into it.
...
I read somewhere on here that some of you find the DL-103 to sound good but a little dull.
Getting into vinyl would not be a good way to live a simpler life, and going down the low output moving coil trail even less so. If you're all about convenience and space economy, a music server will really be a better way to go.
Ok maybe "simpler" is not entirely the right word to use.
What I mean is enjoy the simpler things....trying to actually limit the amount/kind of technology....
I really dont know how to describe it with words right now. But sitting down, putting a record on, and losing yourself in music is simpler than sitting infront of the tv, with an ipad in your lap, looking at facebook, obsessing over what your "friends" are doing....
Taking time to just read a book instead of surf the internet.
Taking time to make nice dinners and enjoy cooking.
Do you get what I am trying to say?
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Ok maybe "simpler" is not entirely the right word to use.
What I mean is enjoy the simpler things....trying to actually limit the amount/kind of technology....
I really dont know how to describe it with words right now. But sitting down, putting a record on, and losing yourself in music is simpler than sitting infront of the tv, with an ipad in your lap, looking at facebook, obsessing over what your "friends" are doing....
Taking time to just read a book instead of surf the internet.
Taking time to make nice dinners and enjoy cooking.
Do you get what I am trying to say?
I am not really sure what you are trying to say to be honest, except that maybe you are trying to simplify your life. It reads as if you are trying to redirect your energies away from the "social/internet media" and spend more of your time doing activities that are not centered around such activities that are the result of one aspect of technology. Yes, reading a book over watching TV is a very good thing. But, I do like to watch a good HD movie with some great audio. Likewise, listening to good audio over a good system is a great way to calm the nerves and sooth the brain, and playing an instrument is a great way to expand ones' creative energies.
Personally, I avoid Facebook, etc., with a passion. I do love technology though and am awed by its evolution/growth. I see technology as being a tool to help us perform work more efficiently, thus giving us more time for leisure. With our leisure we can use technology to broaden our choices of relaxation and gain a greater understanding of the Universe, and hence ourselves. With tech we are privy to data/information that has previously have been unknown or impossible to replicate (fractals.) In the end, it is not the technology that is to blame but how we choose to use it.
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"Simplicity is the state or quality of being simple. It usually relates to the burden which a thing puts on someone trying to explain or understand it. Something which is easy to understand or explain is simple, in contrast to something complicated. Alternatively, as Herbert A. Simon suggested, something is simple or complex depending on the way we choose to describe it... In some uses, simplicity can be used to imply beauty, purity, or clarity. Simplicity may also be used in a negative connotation to denote a deficit or insufficiency of nuance or complexity of a thing, relative to what is supposed to be required. (Emphasis added.)
The concept of simplicity has been related to in the field of epistemology. According to Occam's razor, all other things being equal, the simplest theory is the most likely to be true. In the context of human lifestyle, simplicity can denote freedom from hardship, effort or confusion. Specifically, it can refer to a simple living style. (Emphasis added.)
Simplicity is a theme in the Christian religion. According to St. Thomas Aquinas, God is infinitely simple. The Roman Catholic and Anglican religious orders of Franciscans also strive after simplicity. Members of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) practice the Testimony of Simplicity, which is the simplifying of one's life in order to focus on things that are most important and disregard or avoid things that are least important. (Emphasis added.)
In the philosophy of science, simplicity is a meta-scientific criterion by which to evaluate competing theories. In this field, a distinction is often made between two senses of simplicity: syntactic simplicity (the number and complexity of hypotheses), and ontological simplicity (the number and complexity of things postulated). These two aspects of simplicity are often referred to as elegance and parsimony respectively."
[Wikipedia article on simplicity - yeah, I know, its Wikipedia, and the post is accompanied by a request for improvement. But I like it anyway.]
Occam's Razor and all that. Gotta like the reference to elegance.
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Yoder,
You are kinda getting it. I really am not good with words...you know how they say opposites attract? Well, my wife is an aspiring writer...
I enjoy technology as well but I feel like there is TOO MUCH technology in my life away from work at times. I really enjoy movies and videogames and all of those past times.
However, I use facebook as an example because many have it on their computers, cell phones, tablets, etc. Instead of truely relaxing they are online working themselves up over other people's drama. I have enough drama in my life alone...i dont need anyone else's.
I want to use technology to make life easier, no harder and I feel many people that I know have lost that. I think that is part of the reason why I have such a fascination with audio, especially analog audio.
I am striving for a simpler life where I can go home and fully relax and forget about the troubles of my work.
I do plan to have a home server one day where I have movies and music stored digitally but I also want to have my vinyl records for when I want to sit down and just lose myself to the music. Just like I lose myself in books at times.
Downhome Upstate kinda hit on what I am going after with his Wiki-update, ironically I really started to look for a simpler life after I was baptized about 2 years ago now...
Another way I can explain this is that so often today people want more...just to have more. More house, more clothes, more junk....I want to live by my means. I want to live in a house that is big enough....not big....I want to have the money to invest and travel, I want to be able to retire young enough so I can still get around easily to travel....
I dont want to offend anyone with this post and if you are someone that enjoys living in a bigger house and have lots of toys that's great! I am not trying to say there is anything wrong with that, just that that is not the life that I want for myself. I'm personally too lazy to clean a big house myself and I'm too paranoid to let someone come inside and clean it for me...