Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Crack => Topic started by: TexasRugger on March 31, 2010, 04:57:11 PM
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Howdy. I'm anxiously awaiting my Crack amp in the mail. This will be my first DIY amp and I'm really looking forward to it. My question revolves around headphones - I don't have any! I'm looking to buy some that will work well with the Crack, which I believe means they need to be high impedance. I've found that really limits my options to basically the Sennheisers or something like the AKGs. I wasn't too impressed with the Sennheiser's I heard - too relaxed and un-dynamic. Now that could have been the set-up I heard them on (no Bottlehead stuff!). I'm looking to spend $200 to $300 and want something that can handle bass and dynamics really well. Supposedly the Beyerdynamics don't handle bass particularly well. Any thoughts, insights, suggestions for this headphone newbie?
Steve
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Howdy. I'm anxiously awaiting my Crack amp in the mail. This will be my first DIY amp and I'm really looking forward to it. My question revolves around headphones - I don't have any! I'm looking to buy some that will work well with the Crack, which I believe means they need to be high impedance. I've found that really limits my options to basically the Sennheisers or something like the AKGs. I wasn't too impressed with the Sennheiser's I heard - too relaxed and un-dynamic. Now that could have been the set-up I heard them on (no Bottlehead stuff!). I'm looking to spend $200 to $300 and want something that can handle bass and dynamics really well. Supposedly the Beyerdynamics don't handle bass particularly well. Any thoughts, insights, suggestions for this headphone newbie?
Steve
Headphone choice is a personal thing. Do you have a high end shop near you where you can try different headphones? If so, build the "crack" first and take it with you to the store with a few CD's that you are familiar and camp out for a while.
I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600's that I love to use with my S.E.X. amp. A "crack" amp is on my list of things to buy when funds become available. I think the folks at Bottlehead are very smart to offer low cost kits like "quickie" and "crack" during poor economic times. Very smart indeed.
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There is one specific set of Beyerdynamics that might handle your bass desires...
http://www.performanceaudio.com/cgi/product_view.cgi?products_id=18457 (http://www.performanceaudio.com/cgi/product_view.cgi?products_id=18457)
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Hello, I am wondering if the crack will work well with the AKG K240M which has an impedance of 600 ohms. I know the crack was designed with the 300 ohm sennheisers in mind, but I hope it will mesh well with 250 and 600 ohm headphones.
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Actually the Crack is designed specifically to work with high any impedance headphones, not just Sennheisers. Should work great with 600 ohm AKG 240s.
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I think the impressions you may have read about the Beyers were probably regarding the DT880's. They are very nice but, as you said, particularly bass shy. That said, the DT990's are similar to the 880's but with more bass. I have a pair of both and I can say that the Crack brings out much more bass in both Beyers than I'm used to hearing with them. Personally, with the Crack, I think the 990's have too much bass (I actually keep these cans for late night home theater sessions).
The Senn. 600/650 are a little laid back but the right amp can make a huge difference. Unfortunately, I sold my 600's not too long ago. The 650's have more bass than the 600's and there's lots of fans of the 580 too (I've never owned them so I won't comment).
I think that many of the AKG's will work with the Crack with the exception of the 701/2 or 340 electrostatic/dynamic hybrid. One of my favorite cans for classical is the K501. They too are a little bass shy but they might shine on this amp.
As you can see, there's a ton of choices (and I haven't even mentioned Ultrasones, Sonys, or Audio Technicas). But, that's one of the cool things about headphones. You can try a pair for a little while and resell them without much of a loss. If I'm curious about a particular model, I check out the Headfi "for sale" forum and buy them used. I've never gotten a bad pair that way. If they aren't my cup of tea, I put them up for sale again and just loose out on the shipping.
Also, Headfi has local meets all over the world. This will give you the opportunity to spend some time with some phones on other folk's systems.
In fact, if you're in the Chicago area, the International Meet is going to be there the first weekend of June.
All in all though, unless there's a meet in your neck of the woods in the next week or two, if I was in your shoes, I'd just buy a used pair and live with it for a little while.
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Has anybody heard the Beyer 770s mentioned earlier? How would they compare to the hd650s? I'm looking for a reasonably priced set of closed cans for the bedroom, where the Crack will reside and the higher up Beyer models all seem to be open or semi-open.
Thanks,
Jim
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I used to own the DT770 pro. It was probably underamped but it had a very sharp treble which I did not like. On the other hand I really liked the DT150 which is also closed. It had a warmer sound and was much smoother sounding.
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I'm currently using Beyers (DT880) with the Crack. I previously thought them to be a bit "bass shy" as well, but they have a ton of tight, punchy bass with the Crack (esp. with a Russian 6AS7G equivalent). They also sound great on the enhanced S.E.X., albeit with a bit less bass. When the bass is missing with these cans, you start to get the impression that they are overly bright and have a midrange hole - so a balanced amp that can deliver a ton of juice is key. I personally think the 990's are a bit too bassy and dark in comparison, and have never liked closed phones like the 770's.
I also hear that the 600 ohm variant of the 880's are best, though I doubt that's been looked at objectively! I've not tried the higher impedance version myself.
I still wonder if the Crack would have an okay time with the AKG 701/702. They look marginal on paper, but there's no way of really knowing until somebody volunteers to plug theirs in....
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Yes, I just sold my K702 because I wanted a headphone that would be more compatible with tube amps. If it turns out the K702 plays well with the crack I would definitely get them again.
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Thanks for the input guys. I still like my 650s, just wish they were a bit more transparent and balanced overall, and maybe what I really want is the 600s. Of course that does nothing for the closed can requirement, but maybe there's another way around that.
Thanks also for the characterization of the 770s -- those would probably give me a severe headache as I'm super sensitive to harsh treble.
Probably best to just build the amp and see what happens :D
-- Jim
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I just placed my order today. Having never built a kit or even used headphones much this is a bit of an undertaking!
(I know I have some time before I even get the kit yet...)
I too am considering headphones. I have a pair of Senneiser something or others I use for DJ monitoring. I got them under the recommendations of some other DJ friends of mine when I complained about how every set I get fall apart. These are built very well and have stood the careless DJ road test for over a year now. Pure sound quality isn't really a consideration, just need to be loud enough and provide enough isolation for cue mix.
Anyway, just saying my experience w/ Sennheiser has been positive but not for the reasons I need a new set of headphones for.
I'm curious to hear about other peoples experiences with the usual suspects...
I'm leaning towards either HD600/650 or DT990 -600ohm version.
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A used pair of HD-600's for around $200 is pretty hard to beat! The DT-990 is also a nice choice, but very difficult to find used. The two cans have a very different sound, so it might be best to look locally to try them both. What kind of music will you be listening to primarily?
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the DT990's can currently be had for $230 delivered!
I listen to electronic music almost exclusively. Techno, Drum n Bass, Dubstep, Breakbeat, IDM and the likes.
Very very little guitar-based music. Mostly 320 mp3/FLAC, for the headphone rig they will be served up by a netbook with the on-board audio until I can pick up a proper USB DAC.
Clean defined bass and smoothness/detail/liquid across the rest, please. I like bass, but my tube/speaker rig in the home theater has shown me the pleasures of midrange detail as well...
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Hmm, I think this will really boil down to how you like your treble served up. The HD-600 will be a little more laid back, although the 600 ohm Beyer cans are known for being less bright than their 250 ohm siblings. For $230 new, I'd probably go for it. (Care to share the source? Best I can find is ~$230).
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B&H Photo has pretty good prices on some headphones such as Beyers. Usually free shipping too.
I bought my 990's a few years back when they either had an online typo or just a great sale (it was never really determined,.. but there wasn't an "On Sale" banner). IIRC they sold about 50 for $179.
Another headphone that's pretty popular are the Denon D2000. Those might be just the ticket for Techno and also for a nice pair of closed cans. They have a lot of good bass. There's some pretty nice mods for both the D2000 and it's big brother the D5000.
Oops, just remembered that the Denons are low impedance so it needs to be tried on the Crack first. Sorry 'bout that.
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After reading a little bit more I made a decision on the DT990's @ B&H Photo http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/614495-REG/Beyerdynamic_483966_DT_990_Premium_Open_Back.html I was looking at a lightly used pair on head-fi for $250 until I read some other info on how much they were there. Obviously the cat that is selling them didn't realize the current new price!
Once I realized it'd be pretty easy to sell them for a minimal loss if I just didn't like them, I decided I didn't have much to lose. I'm really not too concerned about not liking them with Crack though. More concerned that I'll be able to pull off assembling the kit without frying something!
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Looking forward to getting the Crack and getting it all set up. I am using HD650 now, just wondering if anyone has tried the HD800, and in particular, with the Crack? Trying to justify the upgrade...
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The HD-800 is what I'm using now with the prototype Speedball Crack. This amp is certainly up to the task of showing off the differences between the HD-800 and HD-600/650.
Doc can certainly speak to this effect also.
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HD-800s ROCK. I think it's maybe just the way the drivers are set farther from your ears, but they have a really heightened sense of space vs. the 600s. Really, really nice.
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Well, I'd better start saving for it soon!
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Good the know that the Crack is able to deliver with the higher end headphones. I got to hear several HD800s at a headfi meet and overall I was not blown away. I think the Beyerdynamic T1 was more to my liking.
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received the Beyer 990's from B&H today. My first serious headphones!
I pulled them out here at work and plugged them into my computer speakers' headphone jack...then had to turn the volume all-the-way-to-11 to hear anything...
Dying to hear them properly amped now!
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The output impedance on the amp is 120 ohms so I am wondering is this amp would pair well with the DT 48 E which has a nominal source impedance of 120 ohms although the nominal impedance is rated at 200 ohms. I am just looking to see which headphones have specs best suited to work with the crack.
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Crack OTL headphone amp.
Designed to optimize performance of high end, high impedance headphones.
Wonderful!
Sennheiser HD595 with 50 ohm rating not considered a good match.
Durn it.
So what!?!
Crack makes the 595 sound great.
Works surprisingly well with low impedance cans.
Still plan to stimulate the German headphone market.
Total number of Bottlehead powered tubes in system; 13
Oh, no!
-Joe Sengl
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Hello Joe,
You can also fudge the low impedance factor by using a bigger coupling cap at the output. The stock cap will give you a -3db point at around 20hz, going to 300uf will drop that dramatically!
EDIT: these numbers are with 50 ohm cans.
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Thanks Paul.
That's good news and what I expected but just got the amp running and it's making splendid work even before the solder had a chance to cool. Sweet amp!
-Joe Sengl
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I would be curious to know what headphones some of the senior members of the forum are using.
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Completed my Crack today, and it sounds great! I "modded" it by setting up the input stage for 6CG7, rather than the stock 12AU7, just a matter of wiring to filament pins 4 and 5 and leaving 9 open.
I have a couple of RCA cleartop 6CG7s that were just beggin' to get used ;-)
No problems, no "hitches" everything came up working perfectly. No audible hum or buzz at all, it is so quiet, that at first, I thought something was wrong.
Painted the chassis plate and tranny top bell metalflake bronze, which I've used on some other amp projects, and it looks pretty good. I'll have to finish the wood base with a "complememtary" color.
It sounds fantastic with the Sennheiser HD600s.
/ed B in NC
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Completed my Crack today, and it sounds great! I "modded" it by setting up the input stage for 6CG7, rather than the stock 12AU7, just a matter of wiring to filament pins 4 and 5 and leaving 9 open.
I have a couple of RCA cleartop 6CG7s that were just beggin' to get used ;-)
No problems, no "hitches" everything came up working perfectly. No audible hum or buzz at all, it is so quiet, that at first, I thought something was wrong.
Painted the chassis plate and tranny top bell metalflake bronze, which I've used on some other amp projects, and it looks pretty good. I'll have to finish the wood base with a "complememtary" color.
It sounds fantastic with the Sennheiser HD600s.
/ed B in NC
Isn't a 6CG7 basically equivalent to a 6SN7? Would there be any benefit of using it over the computer-grade 5963 shipped with my Crack?
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The 6CG7 vs 12AU7 seems to be a matter of personal taste. IMO the 6CG7 and 6SN7 are pretty close, with the SN7 taking an edge when you get the more exotic types. Personally I would go for the E80CC or a 5687, but the 5687 needs a little more than pinout adjustments.
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The 6CG7 vs 12AU7 seems to be a matter of personal taste. IMO the 6CG7 and 6SN7 are pretty close, with the SN7 taking an edge when you get the more exotic types. Personally I would go for the E80CC or a 5687, but the 5687 needs a little more than pinout adjustments.
Other than a slightly higher heater current draw, is the E80CC a drop-in replacement for the 12AU7/5963? They're sort of pricey - if I can find a (relatively) cheap one, I might bite, but otherwise, the 5963 tube I have in there now is supposedly a well-regarded 12AU7 variant anyway....
The Crack is so clear with my Beyers that I actually may stand a chance of hearing the difference between various driver tubes!
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I've always been given to understand that the 6CG7 is the hip, new 9-pin miniature version of the 6SN7. Literally. Then, I believe it was the 6FQ7 that got mixed in there somehow, resulting in one of those dual-designation tubes that doesn't quite equate to either of its parents, but is close enough to both to work for most applications.
I'm not sure I've ever seen a plain, old 6CG7 without the /6FQ7 tag-along; if I have, it has been a very, very long time!
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The 6FQ7 is "supposed" to be a 6CG7 with no internal shield. Of course, I have 6FQ7's with shields, and 6CG7's without, so the whole distinction kind of became meaningless.
The E80CC is indeed a very expensive tube. Consider, however, that the lifetime is probably in excess of 50,000 hours for such a tube run conservatively, and the price start to seem a little more reasonable.
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I've been spending the majority of my listening with a Tungsram E80cc with a Sylvania 6080wb and I'm really enjoying that pairing. The Tungsram was a little on the clinical side with a Tung-sol graphite plate but it's more to my tastes with the Sylvania.
As always, this is really subject to sources, headphones and personal likes. I'm thinking this will be the tube set I'll take to the big Headfi meet in a few weeks.
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Speaking of graphite plate 6080s, I have several and I might be willing to part with some.
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6CG7 vs 12AU7, more of a matter of personal taste than any sound technical reasoning. Previously I modded an FPIII to use 6SN7s, and I liked the result, so this was, in a way, a follow-on to that. 6CG7 is pretty close to 6SN7, though the total plate dissipation rating is somewhat lower.
FWIW, I tried (just for the halibut) an 8CG7 in the driver's slot, and it worked, though at slightly lower gain, and it took about a minute to warm up. Back to 6V tubes... I may try a 6GU7 next, as this is the 6V version of 12BH7, and is 6CG7 pin-compatible.
From observation of my old tube stash, the older US made 6CG7s and 8CG7s generally have the larger ribbed gray or black plates (and some are RCA cleartops), and the 6CG7/6FQ7s (those I have are Japanese Raytheon) generally have the smaller "tighter" plates. So far I haven't been able to hear any noticeable sonic differences. I'll have to check other manufacturers' tubes, besides RCA and Raytheon.
As stated earlier, some have pin 9 conected to an internal shield, and others don't. For now I leave pin 9 open, rather than grounded.
Of course, I can't ever leave anything as original, so I bypassed the two 100 uF caps with some Auricap 0.68 uF / 400V, and connected a 10 uF 400V film cap across the last PSU electrolytic. There seems to be a slight improvement in the upper octave's response, but this may be as much of a "placebo effect" as an actual improvement, this is yet TBD...
/ed B
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That seems like a pretty small valued bypass cap to have much effect on the sound. I could be wrong and if you had those caps on hand,.. what's the harm?
I'm pleasantly surprised how good the Panasonics sound. I do have a couple of 10uF Auricaps and a couple of 1uF Dynamicaps rolling around here someplace that I might try once I get a firm handle on the way this amps sounds stock.
I guess I'm just in the "enjoy it" stage right now. And since I don't have much experience with 6080s and the like, I'm pretty happy to just be tube rolling right now.
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The 0.68 uF Auricaps were some I had on hand, leftovers from a J.R. Broskie "Aikido" project.
I figured they only had to work above 5KHz or so, so the relatively small value should be sufficient.
Ditto for the 10 uF film cap, I have "boatloads" of them, found at a NEAR-fest (NH Hamfest) a few years ago. The 100uF caps are amazingly good sounding by themselves, much better than I would have expected, or have experienced with lesser, cheaper caps.
Like I said, the perceived HF effects may be more "placebo" than tangible...
Next is to try rolling in my various 6080s, 6AS7Gs and 5998As. One thing at a time...
/ed B
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Truth is the 100uF 'lytic coupling caps were what I was most concerned about when we decided to do this. I figured everyone would just have to "chuck them in the trash and buy a good cap", as we couldn't include 100uF film caps and keep the price anywhere remotely near where I wanted it to be. But in fact I don't hear a huge difference between the stock Panasonic 'lytic caps and the Dayton film caps we recommend for folks who eant to switch to film. Those Panasonics are a really solid value. I will however forewarn folks that at this ridiculous price point we may have to change to different brands from time to time as our suppliers fall into back order situations. We've sold about three times as many Cracks as I expected by this time, and keeping up the delivery pace means we have to stay flexible about parts sources. So you might see a Nichicon or a C-D here and there - or maybe even the new EPCOS caps that Mouser is stocking. Right now I think we are shipping with Pannys for the coupling caps and maybe Nichicons in the power supply.
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Doc, what would be a good cap to buy if we want to spend a little extra to boost performance? Also a good site to find/buy one.
Thanks.
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I would browse at Partsconnexion. I seem to remember some Jensen electrolytics that seemed to fit the bill. Also the 250v Solen film caps are a nice choice.
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Are you referring to the SOLEN-044-68227. 2.2uf / 250VDC, SY Series, 24mm D x 38mm L
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No, 2.2uf is way, way too small to replace the 160uf coupling caps with. It actually looks like the Daytons are a far better deal. Here is the link:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?PartNumber=027-447 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?PartNumber=027-447)
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How about replacing the 100uF caps with these?
http://www.soniccraft.com/auricap.htm (http://www.soniccraft.com/auricap.htm)
Auricap 100uF 220V at $100 a piece. $200 in upgrade caps for a $200 headphone amp. Same metallized polypro construction as the Daytons but an order of magnitude more expensive.
If one had money to spend (and the speedball mod is already in the que), would these be a clear case of guilding the lilly? What would someone spend the next $50, $100 on to improve the Crack -- are there any weak links left? Or have we covered the low hanging fruit on this design and are into diminishing returns?
I am just a neophyte -- I know little about this stuff but would like to learn.
Thanks.
David
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The Speedball does a good job of providing the greatest improvement. Shunt regulation is also quite possible with the PT-3, but that is not a mod for the feint of heart. A stepped attenuator is also a good idea.
When we built the prototype, we ran into those Auricaps and joked that they were almost as much as the kit would cost (we worked hard afterwards to get the price down). Still, someone has to try it!
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Back to bypassing the stock electrolytics... The voltage specs are borderline, but if PB gives the ok, then I'd really suggest somebody try the .1 uF Vishay Roderstein MKP-1837s.
I had extremely good results bypassing some nichicon KG and ES series caps that were used as output coupling caps in my Millet MiniMax headamp that I built for my dad last year. I ended up with unbypassed blackgates, but the difference wasn't all that significant.
If PB gives the ok, then I'll definitely give this a try in my Crack when I get to that point.
-- Jim
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Hey Jim,
I looked through my stash and I have some of the 1837s. If I get a chance, I'll give them a try this weekend.
I use those as bypass caps on BlackGate Nx and they really do a nice job taking the edge off the highs. Really subtle but it makes long term listening much better. That's in a totally different application (dc blocker before an output transformer on a solid state signal processor).
If bypassing can be done without any untoward effects, the list of possible choices is endless. (which I like)
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Steve,
How did I know you would have some of these :D.
Yes, the NXs top end can be a bit aggressive, though the standard N and NH don't seem to have the same issue.
Well, let us know if you get a chance to try it.
-- Jim
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Here's another 100uf 250V Metalized Polypropylene one might want to consider:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_axon.html
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Those were some of the first ones mentioned way back when, unfortunately, PCX is out of them and will not be restocking. Michael Percy does carry them as well though.
HTH,
Jim
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I would suggest not using the MKP-1837. 5-10 volts is just not enough safety margin.
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I'm thinking about ordering upgrade caps for my yet to be built Crack.
Solen makes a 160uf 250v film cap but it is quite a bit more than the 100uf Daytons. As it is meant to replace a 160uf electrolytic, does it make sense to spend an extra $20 on a cap to get the right value? What sonic differences might one expect with a 100uf vs a 160uf cap [I think they are both 5% so there would be a difference]?
thanks
Bryon
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The formula 1/(2*Pi*R*C) will give you the -3db point based on the capacitor value in Farads and the headphone impedance in ohms. Going to a smaller cap will raise the rolloff point according to that formula. Plug in your headphone's impedance and 100uf (100*10^(-6)) so see what frequency you get out. I would suggest shooting for anything between 3 and 10hz.
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I almost hate to steer this thread back to it's subject heading but I'll give you guys some of my thoughts on the headphones I tried with the Speedball upgraded Crack amp in Chicago.
I really wanted to try some of the better headphones and luckily one of my pals from Co. was just a couple of tables away.
HD800- Really one fantastic match IMHO. Maybe the best the upgraded Crack sounded all weekend. I'd listened to these many times before but was a little underwhelmed with them till CanJam. There were three amps that hit these cans with the "beauty stick" and added just what I thought they needed to really make them sing. One was $10k, the other was a large home brewed amp that would probably cost almost as much to market. Everything sounded fantastic with this pairing.
Beyer T1- I'd also heard these a few time before and from the amps I heard it on, it just isn't my cup of tea. Don't get me wrong, for some folks, these might be a real favorite but even with the juicy, rich tone of the stock Crack, they were still a little to clinical for me.
Audeze LCD-2- These have been a real hit at the last few meets I've attended. Almost as fast and clear as an electrostatic with the mid bass punch of a dynamic, these planar driven headphones would be on my short list if I didn't already have some electrostatics I love. Unfortunately, just like planar speakers, they're a bear to drive. I'm not sure if any OTL will have a prayer of having the oomph to make these sing.
Sony Qualia- Kind of the redheaded stepchild and successor to the famous MDR-R10. These cans were very short lived in the Sony line up but they do have a small following in the unobtainium world. Somewhat like the T1 they are fast and accurate. The upgraded Crack did make them sound better than I recall right off hand, but these detail oriented headphones are way too much cash for what you get IMHO. The only reason I tried them with the Crack is because I take every opportunity to see if I can find that perfect match since they do have a lot of potential.
AKG K501- I've always enjoyed these headphones and actually prefer them to the K701. They are normally quite bass shy but there's something about the Crack amp (and many of Doc's offerings for that matter) that elevates the bass performance like crazy and this is no exception. I just looked them up online and see that they've now been discontinued but the K601 are similar and can easily be found for under $200. Personally, I'd keep an eye out for a used set of 501's which should be a real sleeper at just over $100 (in fact, I might just do that myself).
Sennheisser HD600/650- I'll say right off the bat that I've always preferred the 600 to the 650. With the Crack amp, this is no exception. I've always thought that the 600's were the perfect entry level headphone. You can find them for cheap ( I bought a B stock pair many moons ago before the 650 was introduced for $229 and recently sold them for $125- never did figure out what made them B stock though?).
For real bass heads who demand lots of slam, the 650's could be just your thing. I listen to lots of classical and jazz though so I'm much more detail oriented.
Well, that's about it for the cans I rolled through my rig in Chicago. I'm sorry the selection was a little top heavy but I was primarily interested in headphones I might want to buy in the future.
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Yo Steve,
I'm in agreement with you on the HD800s. The only way I've heard them sound better than on Crack is on my own homebrew amp (which would probably cost about $10K if we put it out on the market).
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It *would* be the HD800's, wouldn't it :)
I scooped up a HD600 to supplement my DT990
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Thanks for the headphone impressions Ironbut. I've ordered a built Crack (with the speedball upgrade) and I'm very anxious to get it. I just bought a used SEX amp and rec'd it yesterday and I'm very impressed with it. It sounds great with my HD650/HD580, Grado HF2 and even with the Beyer T1 (600 Ohm). I'm sure the higher Ohm headphones will sound even better on the Crack.
I also have these other headphones to try out on the SEX and CRACK, JVC AH-DX1000, Beyer DT-990 (600OHM), Ultasone HFI-780, Darth Beyer V3, AKG 240 MKII, SHURE SRH840, and Denon D2000s
Great products Doc!
Canuck57 (at head-fi as well)
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Steve and/or Doc,
Regarding the HD-800s, were those with the stock cables? I've heard that the cable can be important to getting the best out of these cans, but as I still haven't heard them myself yet I was hoping you folks could say something about that.
Also, Steve, can you describe the akg 501s sound, and are they open or closed design? And thanks much for posting these thoughts, they're really useful to a guy like me who has limited experience with different headphones.
Any bass heads out there want to trade their 600s for my 650s?
-- Jim
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HD800s are fine with the stock cable IMHO. I think they have one of the best standard headphone cables on the market. There are many other parts in the signal chain to upgrade way before these cables, again IMHO of course :)...
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HD800s are fine with the stock cable IMHO. I think they have one of the best standard headphone cables on the market. There are many other parts in the signal chain to upgrade way before these cables, again IMHO of course :)...
I agree. Upgrading the cables on mine is very, very low on the priority list.
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Hey Jim,
The K501 us an open headphone. It was AKG's main audiophile phone for many years until it was updated to the 601. To my ears, it's a detailed but smooth sounding headphone. Like I said, it doesn't have the greatest bass impact with most amps but it's great with classical and jazz. Nice soundstage too. I consider all AKG's to be among the most comfortable headphones to wear for long periods of time too.
For you guys who are new to the headphone scene, don't discount that last bit about comfort. The last thing you want is to have to stop listening because of comfort issues. I do think that headphone manufacturers have made some real strides is this area lately but that isn't universal.
There are things you can do to make them more comfortable. Some of it depends on how you plan to listen to them. In other words, if you're planning to be active when you listen, they can't be so loose that they're going to fall off your head.
Here's a short list of comfort mods.
Reducing the HD600/650 head-clamp (applies to most headphones that squeeze your head till your eyes bug out).
First, extend the headband about and inch away from it's most extended position (as if you had an enormous head). Take some books and put the headphones on them and add another book or more so they're pretty tight. Leave it like that overnight.
The idea here is to train the inside end of the metal band inside of the headband so it's not so tight.
Check the fit. If it hasn't loosened at all, add more books and repeat.
Then, adjust the headband to your optimal size and follow the above procedure again.
If you have a pretty big head, you'll need to do this several times while adding books each time.
Some headphones have thin padding on the earpads. If your ears touch the driver at all, it'll hurt after a long listening session. There are a couple of different tactics you can try.
If the earpads have a flap on the driver side of the material covering the foam inside, you can cut some open cell foam (about 1/4-1/2" thick) and slip it under the flap.
Some folks swear by using rubber tubing rather than foam.
In cases where there's no flap, you may have to remove the earpads and insert the "spacer" inside or under the pads. Most pads are attached with some sort of adhesive but with some, you have to take the earcups apart to free the earpads.
Easy does it with this. You don't want to crease the headband metal at all or fatigue the metal.
* Be aware that the space between the driver and your ear is an integral part of the design, like your listening room, so changing the basic dimensions by adding too much foam will change the frequency response.
That and where you locate circumaural earpads/earcups in relation to your ear is somewhat like moving your listening chair back and forth in relative to your speakers. Many headphones sound better when the earcups are located a little closer to the front of your ears than exactly centered. It's always worth experimenting.
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With regards to recabling headphones, I agree with CB.
I've listened to tons of upgraded cables and while the differences are usually audible, in many cases I have to strain my ears to hear it.
That said, that's kind of shoved to the back-back burner and I concentrate of the rest of the system or buy music.
I've always figured if a stock cable gets screwed up some way, I'll spring for a really nice set but so far, that's never happened.
The one exception is maybe the HD600. That's a pretty poor cable that comes with it. It is failure prone. There are tons of aftermarket cables for them but you can also just order a pair of HD650 cables directly from Sennhiesser for about $15+shipping.
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Thanks Arsun, CB and Steve. The 800s would be a long way off for me unless I can manage to land a part-time, off-the-books job to feed my habit :-).
The 501/601s sound interesting too -- going to have to keep an eye out for a pair of those.
All great info -- thanks guys.
-- Jim
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Howdy all - as the original poster of this thread I thought I should write a follow up. I built the Crack, made my own case for it using some beautiful Texas mesquite and am loving it. I finally had to make a decision on headphones and decided to go with the Beyerdynamics 990s, 600 ohm version. I don't have anything to compare them to, at least not while listening to the Crack but I can say they sound fantastic. Very dynamic, fantastic bass, clean highs. I'm still getting used to the whole headphone thing but this is a pretty good start for me. Next step is upgrading the DAC - currently listening to a squeezbox as is. Think I'll be buying a PS Audio Digital Link III next. Bottom line, love the Beyerdynamics
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TR,
How about posting pictures of the Crack in Mesquite in the Gallery?
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TR,
How about posting pictures of the Crack in Mesquite in the Gallery?
Good idea- pictures posted in the gallery
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Hi Guys.
Before I order my crack amp, I wanted to listen to some phones.
The only dealer in town, that still offers headphones in reality, had AKG K-702, Beyerdynamik T-1, Grado SR 325 and Senns HD 800.
To make a not too long story short: for the experienced listener, this is not a contest. The HD 800 wins hands down. The AKG is uncomfortable to my head, but nice sounding. The T-1 is certainly good bit not on par with the Senns. The Grado is a likeable headphone but too low impedanced to suit the Crack.
So here I am - wanting to spend 200-300 Euros and what do I have? 1000.-
The dealer said - good salesman - everybody who compared the 650 (no more 600) to the 800 wanted the 800. More than 3 times the money - 3 times better? Probably not.
Would anyone set a frame?
I was not able to compare them - so anyone who did, please let me know.
Thanks!
Chris
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I agree that the HD800 is better sounding than the HD600 or HD650. I really like their sound. However, I don't have HD800s, and my HD600s sound awfully good with a Crack amp when there aren't any HD800s around to compare against. If budget is an issue (and it sure can be these days) I would suggest picking up a pair of used HD600s. With an upgraded cable like a Cardas they are very good.
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You gotta love this. My wife used my Beyerdynamic 770's while on our summer vacation. She promptly asked it she could have them, and so being the gentleman that I am...I obliged her. Gave her the 770's and bought me a pair of HD 650's. I love them and am about a week from have my Speedball Crack up and running. The HD 800's are sweet, but a little bit out of my price range.
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Doc and Yoder.
Thanks so much.
Comparing does almost always make you poorer :-)
I suspected that the 600 is good enough and I will get the cable.
But first thing tonight?
I
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Yup, I'm listening. Thanks! We should have a long awaited batch of wood bases arriving soon, at which point we will be doing a massive packing and shipping of back ordered Crack kits.
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I think most folks would be very happy with the HD600/650. There are tons of HD600's around on the used market and if you look and/or ask (in an "in search of" ISO) in the For Sale/Headphones section of Headfi, you should be able to get a nicely broken in, but not abused pair of either. I recently sold my HD600's for $125 (after getting HD800's) and while I will admit that it was a little on the cheap side, I just had them sitting around collecting dust and when I noticed someone was looking for a pair.
If you've listened to the HD650, the 600's are a little lighter in the bass. For music like classical/jazz, I find the 600's more balanced while the 650's have more slam for rock.
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Doc - bought and paid.
Steve - great info. It is funny, that I am hard pressed to find and used 600s in Germany. And if for around 250 USD which makes no sense.
Honestly, if I had the money around at the moment, I would not wait a second to buy the 800 - it is really amazing.
But for now I will wait for the kit, build it and then there will be the phones.
Cheers
Chris
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I have the AKG K400 and K500, both sound fantastic on the Crack. The K500 has gobs of detail, big soundstage and a wonderful tone which works wonders with live recordings. I am very interested in the Grado 325is but I know they are low impedance. Does anyone know if you can buy adapters which you could connect to a headphone to raise its impedance?
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Sure, or you could make one yourself. It should be just a 1/4" male to 1/4" female cable with resistors in the signal path (not ground). You'll want to make sure to match the resistors to avoid much of a difference in left and right. I've seen people use anything up to 300 ohms.
While you're at it, you could add a right angle neutrik gold 1/4" TRS to the cable so you don't have your headphone cable sticking up in the air. I built a 1/4" right angle male to 1/4" locking female cable for that reason.
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I just wanted to say how pleased I am with my new HD600 being driven by this amp! I'm being smacked in the face by stingingly crisp bass and luscious vocals. The crack has full control of these headphones and I can see why they are a recommended pair.
Now if I could only get a right angled headphone cable for the senns. Hmm, didn't bottlhead offer one in the past?
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Thanks for the kind words! Try Kevin Haskins at DIYCable for the Cardas Sennheiser cable with right angle plug.
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Hey Now,
Just finished up my Crack and was listening to it with my HD650s. Yep, just like everyone else says, it sounds terrific. I forgot I had another 300 ohm headphone, the MB Quart QP805HS. I plugged those in and woo-hoo, what a difference the Crack makes with this headphone. The bass is more pronounced, tighter and well defined, the mids are very nice and sweet. I listened to them for several hours last night.
I also tried some AKG601s (120 ohm) and it sounded nice, not as good as the HD650 or QP805s. I am gonna give the Crack a good listening too before I do the Speedball upgrade. I'm liking it very much so far.
I only had one cold solder joint on the right channel. Easy peasy re-solder fix. Thanks Bottlehead, love this amp.
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Finest kind,
Chris
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Hey Now,
Just finished up my Crack and was listening to it with my HD650s. Yep, just like everyone else says, it sounds terrific. I forgot I had another 300 ohm headphone, the MB Quart QP805HS. I plugged those in and woo-hoo, what a difference the Crack makes with this headphone. The bass is more pronounced, tighter and well defined, the mids are very nice and sweet. I listened to them for several hours last night.
I also tried some AKG601s (120 ohm) and it sounded nice, not as good as the HD650 or QP805s. I am gonna give the Crack a good listening too before I do the Speedball upgrade. I'm liking it very much so far.
I only had one cold solder joint on the right channel. Easy peasy re-solder fix. Thanks Bottlehead, love this amp.
--
Finest kind,
Chris
I missed your post somehow. My wife just bought me the QP805HS on closeout, for Fathers day. Probably wont be here until end of the week or next week. Glad to hear that they sound good on Crack. Looking forward to receiving them and plugging them in. Congrats on your successful build. Great headphone amp and a steal at the price.