Bottlehead Forum
Other Gear => Speakers => Topic started by: JamieMcC on July 05, 2014, 02:27:33 AM
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Hi guys I have been searching back through the posts looking for info on suitable full range drivers for use with a newly ordered sex amp and most probably a Frugal Horn 3 build from scratch.
It quickly became obvious with a little searching that its a bit of a mine field for a newbie to full range drivers like myself so am hopeful for a nudge in the right direction as to some current driver options that would be suitable for consideration and further reading.
Thanks if you can spare a mo to offer a little advice and help me out.
Cheers Jamie
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Hi Jamie,
I think you'd better also ask to the user Planet10 ad DIYAudio forum, who is one of the owner of the project.
In my opinion chosing a fullrange driver is always a matter of trade off: you can loose low or high frequencies extension, or you can have both extensions and loose a bit of midrange quality, not to speak about sensitivity or impedance...
It all depends of your musical taste (are you into heavy rock or electronic? If so you need mor bass), your listening room (if it's big you'll need the most efficient driver), and your amplifier (does the SEX tolerate low impedance?).
Hope it can help!
Ciao!
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Jamie,
I have used the Fostex FE 206E and Audio Nirvana 8" cast frame speakers in a cabinet design from common sense audio. Both have their strong points but tended to be too harsh or blaring in the high frequencies, even with a baffle step correction circuit. I now have the Orcas and they are absolutely marvelous, the highs are clean and bright. I generally like the DIY route but am very happy with the Orca Dungeness combination. Like you I found the selection overwhelming and after reading all the reviews of the Orcas on the forum decided to get them.
Good luck,
Butch
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You know, this question is coming up more and more. Dan used to have a list of speakers that were the right sensitivity for the kits. I think it was a link on the "Community" page.
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Jamie,
I have used the Fostex FE 206E and Audio Nirvana 8" cast frame speakers in a cabinet design from common sense audio. Both have their strong points but tended to be too harsh or blaring in the high frequencies, even with a baffle step correction circuit. I now have the Orcas and they are absolutely marvelous, the highs are clean and bright. I generally like the DIY route but am very happy with the Orca Dungeness combination. Like you I found the selection overwhelming and after reading all the reviews of the Orcas on the forum decided to get them.
Good luck,
Butch
Cheers Butch I will take a look, I really ought to make some cabinets my self I most probably have enough left over material in my workshop to build a pair of the Frugel horns, other than a little time they would be very frugal indeed the only thing I would need to purchase would be stuffing and terminals which would mean a larger budget for some quality drivers.
Jamie
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My two cents follows. This is deliberately kind of negative, to counter the excess enthusiasm of the True Believers. The truth is somewhere in the middle, as usual, and there are exceptions to every rule. :^)
1) Everything is a compromise, do not expect perfection. The lack of crossover and single-source location are real virtues which you can't get any other way, but you must give a little on extension, accuracy, and power handling. No free lunch.
2) The deeper and louder the bass, the more air the speaker must move. Cone area times max excursion is the amount of air moved. Anything less than 6.5 inch diameter is never going to give deep full bass - get a sub, or listen to chamber music.
3) Very few fullranges have a flat frequency response; most have either a rising response in the mid-treble (shrill) or hashy treble peaks (harsh) or both. Whizzer cones are the usual culprit, and they are needed on anything 6.5" or greater diameter if you want any treble extension at all. You can see the conflict with 2) ! Look hard for the few exceptions, it's worth it in the end.
4) Most will put out little power above 10-12kHz. Even if they look better on-axis, they are so directional that the power into the room is still very small.
5) Efficient drivers have large, lightweight cones (flimsy) and hence more ragged response. (To be fair, heavy cones can be smooth but are usually also dull and lifeless. No free lunch.)
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Paul's word are, as usual, perfect!
But if you are searching for a cheap project to get your feet wet try the zigmahornet with a 4" chinese fullrange you can find find on ebay (I think it's called "Aucharm" od "Davidlouise hifi", it's a neo-magnet small fullrange with a whizzer cone and a copper phase plug, 89dB/W/m).
I have a pair of them and I think they are really good.
As usual no affiliation with the seller nor any other relationship.
Ciao!
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I use a pair of Fostex FE126En with my Stereomour. The sensitivity is around 93 dB/W at a meter, which is on a the low side for the Stereomour, but is still enough for me in a average sized room. They are stuck in a BK-12m folded horn enclosure I built myself according to plans you find at Maddisound (or anywhere else on the web). Opposite to the Frugal horns, they have the horn mouth at the front, and you can put them against a wall (for better wife/husband acceptancy).
I love them for classics (not symphonic), jazz and, best of all, voices. The soundstage is well layered in every direction, especially when using them as nearfield speakers (sitting around 1 meter from each), where the system beats any headphone. As PJ said, they can be a little shouty and fatiguing at high volume. Bass extension is so-so (50-60 Hz minimum). I sometimes use them with Bottlehead The Fix to get better trebble and bass extension, but I think I loose some medium magic (where they really shine).
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Thank you everyone lots of food for thought in your posts. I have also found another excellent older post by PJ which has been helpful.
As a high percentage of the music listened to is folk/acoustic and vocal centric. Getting vocal presentation right is a high priority to me which really has me curious about what a full range horn based speaker set up might deliver.
I wouldn't call my self a bass head by any stretch though I do have a sub ;D for my surround sound system. I will have a look over the Maddisound enclosure plans as well later thanks for the heads up there.
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I've always thought that a full range single driver will be a compromise at one end or the other or both.
I have a Sexy Speaker setup, but it doesn't put the music "in the room" like my Hersey's. The subs help where the Hersey's are lacking. Most of the time I'm listening all of them...the Fostex sitting on the Hersey's sitting on the subs.
I would like to try an 8" OB with a cap couple to a tweeter and the subs.
Any suggestions?
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There is a lot of magic in the 126en, for not much money. I use a pair of Hornshoppe's myself...John
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I would echo some of Paul's comments. Its incredibly hard to find good fullrange driver based speakers. The ones my customers and I like are more classic style non horn designs, for instance.
There is alot of variance in quality out there in the Fullrange, and multiway scene, for that matter. Horses for courses, of course.
To me the discussion is actually about what crossover point you are willing to accept. For almost every fullrange driver speaker I've made I ultimately preferred with some sort of helper subwoofers (and if not that, then supertweeters), and the crossovers, drivers, cabinets in needed to be good as well. So ultimately, many "single driver" speakers end up becoming a two way of some sort. The goal of a fullrange is to cover most of the range with one driver. When its done well, its pure and simple, like any other great speaker.
Clark
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Hi all thanks for your wise words.
My travels down the path of full range speakers has now officially begun after taking my first step with a pair of pre loved Fostex FX120's for $150 that just happen to come up for sale over the weekend on a local forum here in the UK.
As they are not as efficient as BH specify for the SEX rather than the Frugal horns to start with I am thinking of trying the Bass reflex enclosure plans that Fostex recommend on their website for the FX120's for a more near field speaker arrangement with a listening distance centre of 1.5 meters. Maybe try them with the Frugal horns later on.
Hopefully a enjoyable project lays ahead.
Jamie
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Jamie,
Those FX120's are cool drivers, and that's a great price for them. Our business model with the Mola and Mako product range is not that we make every cabinet for the FX120's and F120A's, just that we make an ultra-premium bass reflex cabinet option for an established, "classic" fullrange (just the same way as the Orca cabinet range is for the FE83En driver). Drivers can be sent to us and deducted from the retail cost of the cabinets for instance. Whatever your path, we just want people to have fun and discover/rediscover classic fullrange sound.
Enjoy!
-Clark
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Thanks Clark
Perhaps one day I will get to try out a pair of your wonderful speakers. Most of my time is spent fixing composite boats so I am looking forward to sharpening up my plane and chisels and working with some wood to make some basic cabinets myself.
Jamie
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I need new speakers for my S.E.X. 2.1.
Does anyone have personal experience with:
Hoyt-Bedford Type 1.5 Monitors
or
Decware HDT?
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I replaced a pair of DIY Audio Nirvana speakers with Decware HDT speakers and I love them. They are DIY too, but Bob Zigler helped me build them so I can't take all the credit. He lives close to me in North Carolina and graciously offered to let me use his shop and jigs. The cabinets are not simple bass reflex like the AN cabinets so construction is a lot more involved but you can buy the plans and drivers if you want to build your own. In my opinion they are a big improvement over the AN speakers because they don't have the midrange shout of the AN speakers. I have driven them with my SEX 2.0 amp and it does great. However I have Quicksilver Horn Mono amps driving them every day as I use my SEX amp for headphone listening on the computer. Someday I will build a pair of Paramount amps, but until then I have no complaints with the Quicksilver amps. Your amp will sound great with the HDT speakers.