Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Stereomour => Topic started by: HiFiC on December 10, 2014, 02:20:54 PM
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Created an account here on the forum a few years ago when I built my Stereomour; hard to believe this is my first post! Anyhow, one of my stock Sovtek tubes seems to have bit the dust. I can still hear faint music out of that channel, and when I swap the tubes between channels, the problem is replicated on the other side. So must be a bad tube, right?
After reading up on the 2A3 tubes that are readily available for less than $250/pair, I had settled on the JJ 2A3-40 from Eurotubes.com. Sounds like a fantastic tube that met my budget, and Eurotubes is just a couple hundred miles away from where I live in Seattle. Gave them a ring to ask a few questions and put in my order, and was disappointed to find out they currently aren't providing a warranty for 2A3-40's that are going into Bottlehead amps due to consistent problems when paired with the Bottlehead. Bummer!
I'm not ready to shell out a couple hundred bucks for a potential unwarrantied tube failure, so looking for recommendations on other tube suppliers. The Shuguang Treasure 2A3-Z is probably #2 on my list, followed by the EH Gold. Open to strong opinions from others on tube selection. Which tube retailers do people trust and receive good service from? The Tube Store? Tube Depot? Elsewhere?
Thanks!
Chad
1/8/2015 UPDATE: All concerns have been resolved due to discussions between Bottlehead and Eurotubes! Eurotubes is once again providing a warranty on their JJ 2A3-40 tubes being installed in Stereomours and Paramours. If I understand correctly, only the early Paramount without the soft-start circuit is still in question and is being investigated by Bottlehead, Eurotubes, and the JJ factory. See page 3 of this thread for photos of JJ's now installed in my Stereomour! I'm loving them. Woohoo!
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Did Eurotubes give a specific reason for the lack of warrantee? The only issue I am aware of regarding any specific tube was several years ago, had to do with EML tubes, not JJs, and had to do with the Paramount in direct coupled configuration and not Stereomour. It was addressed to both our and EML's satisfaction with the soft start circuit we now employ in that amp.
Seems like Eurotubes would want to let us know if they are having problems, but I have not heard from them.
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That doesn't make sense. Your amp is cap coupled no DC. The BH team will chime in but it's probably an odd ball seller unless there is something going on I'm not aware of and again, the Bh team will chime in.
Dan beat me to the reply button!
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I'll keep an eye on this thread.
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Only explanation I received was that they had received an unusually high number of returns due to failure in Bottlehead amps over the past year or so, and they didn't know why. I had seen a few references to that on the net, but it sounds like they've had more than just a few failures. Maybe the 2A3-40 is spec'd a bit differently from the classic 2A3 design and isn't compatible with certain 2A3 amp designs? I have no idea. Pure speculation on my part. That would be great if they'd be willing to work with you, Dan, to determine what the issue is, if there is indeed an issue. I'd be happy to suggest to them that they contact you if you're up for that.
In the mean time, though, any recommended tube retailers, or retailers to avoid? I couldn't find any local Seattle shops that stock the 2A3.
Did Eurotubes give a specific reason for the lack of warrantee? The only issue I am aware of regarding any specific tube was several years ago, had to do with EML tubes, not JJs, and had to do with the Paramount in direct coupled configuration and not Stereomour. It was addressed to both our and EML's satisfaction with the soft start circuit we now employ in that amp.
Seems like Eurotubes would want to let us know if they are having problems, but I have not heard from them.
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antique electronic supply has these tubes. Probably cheaper too.
michael
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I had 2 JJ 2A3-40 tubes fail this year in my Stereomour. Both were under warranty and after being checked out by Eurotubes were replaced. One tube failed after 3 months and the replacement tube failed after 1 week. Since then, the second replacement tube has performed perfectly for almost 6 months now. I believe there may have been a bad batch of these tubes.
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What was the failure? Did you lose gain? Did the tube get noisy? Or was it more dramatic, like filament failure or a short? Was it the same thing both times?
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I think the "high number of failures" in Bottlehead amps may simply be the lack of other 2A3 amps available at the moment. A Google search of "JJ 2A3 reliability" shows some other issues in other amps.
The Stereomour's operation is nearly equivalent to the Paramour monoblocks, which go back a very long time (more than a decade). If the circuit was to blame for tube failure, we certainly would have expected it to take less than 13 years to develop. Additionally, the JJ 2A3-40 boasts a higher maximum plate voltage rating and a higher plate dissipation rating.
We are happy to work with Eurotubes or JJ in this matter, but so far we haven't been contacted, and there hasn't even been a mention of what the failure mode is.
-PB
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Paramour goes back nearly 15 years. I think PJ and I started working on that one in 2000 or so.
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OK, Josh did a little research and this exact same story came up once before, same story, same players. And I said exactly the same thing then - we will work with Eurotubes to determine why their tubes are failing if they want to work with us, but we can't resolve a problem if no one will say what the problem is. There are plenty of other 2A3s out there. We've been making the Paramour/Stereomour since 2001 or so and the Sovteks we have been supplying now for several years have proven to be good sounding and exceptionally reliable in the Stereomour. I have also use Valve Arts, TJs, RCAs, Ken Rads, GEs, Sylvanias, 2A3Hs, single plate Raytheon 2A3s worth a couple thou a pair, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting, all with great results.
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What was the failure? Did you lose gain? Did the tube get noisy? Or was it more dramatic, like filament failure or a short? Was it the same thing both times?
Both times the same failure occurred. The tube would lose gain and the center image shifted towards the opposite side.
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OK so this is not some dramatic failure like an arc-over. Do you happen to know if Eurotubes did any kind of postmortem on the tubes, like measuring transconductance or measuring filament resistance?
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Yes, they did and confirmed what I heard but I don't recall them telling me the exact measurements.
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I have been using the Eurotubes JJ 2A3-40's in my custom BH stereo amp for two years now and they are still singing sweetly with full power. I haven't asked Paul Birkeland yet if my amp has the soft-start circuit or not.
Cheers, Hank
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I have been using the Eurotubes JJ 2A3-40's in my custom BH stereo amp for two years now and they are still singing sweetly with full power. I haven't asked Paul Birkeland yet if my amp has the soft-start circuit or not.
You're cap coupled, so the soft start circuit wasn't necessary.
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Dan and PB, I talked with Jay at Eurotubes today about this thread, and he said they'd be happy to talk with you guys more about what they've experienced in terms of failures with BH amps. Their number is 503-659-7401, if you guys want to get in touch. Dying to get my Stereomour back up and running, so I'll be picking up some other tubes in the mean time, but it would be great to better understand what, if any, issue there is with the JJ's for the next time I feel the itch to do some tube rolling. Thanks for being willing to jump in on this conversation!
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I'm just going to jump in here and mention that I've had a pair of JJ 2A3s in my Paramour IIs for about 2.5 years with zero problems. Bought them at Amplified Parts (Antique Electronic Supply, I think). I loved the sound right out of the gate compared to the stock Sovteks—much cleaner, clearer and brighter it seems to me.
Peter
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Dan and PB, I talked with Jay at Eurotubes today about this thread, and he said they'd be happy to talk with you guys more about what they've experienced in terms of failures with BH amps. Their number is 503-659-7401, if you guys want to get in touch. Dying to get my Stereomour back up and running, so I'll be picking up some other tubes in the mean time, but it would be great to better understand what, if any, issue there is with the JJ's for the next time I feel the itch to do some tube rolling. Thanks for being willing to jump in on this conversation!
I would love to get a pair for my Stereomour . Tube Depot is selling them. I didn't read anything about BH gear on their warrantee page. Did anyone from BH talk to Eurotubes about this problem?
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PJ will be talking to them in the near future. It is still not clear to me that there is a problem, as the only scenario we have any details of is from one user in a fairly narrow time frame.
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I spoke with the technical guy (Eddie) at Eurotubes today. So far as I understand it the only problem they have actually seen was with Paramounts in the direct coupled 2A3 version, and it sounds similar to the problems that led to the soft-start which is now standard on that amp. It seems that at least one of their customers does have the soft start board and still had the problem, so there are still some questions. Further testing will be done by Eurotubes and/or JJ on the "bad" tubes - that information will help us understand what happened more clearly. Both Bottlehead and Eurotubes are in contact and will keep each other up to date; we will post news when we have it.
So far, I believe there should be no unusual problems with Stereomours, and no such problems with soft-start Paramounts either unless the 20-minute rest after shutdown is ignored. Eurotubes will update their warranty policy as more is learned, so if you want to use those tubes check for the current status before ordering.
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I had a new tube failure with the JJ 2A3-40 some years ago on another amp. They were very nice and sent me a replacement but I was not sure whether the problem was the tube or the amp. I am currently using the Stereomour as a 45 tube amp and have used the JJ 2A3 as a 45 tube w/o problems, but I find it is nosier than the normal 45 tubes or the stock Sovtek 2A3 ( a slight ringing noise). I am thinking of changing the Stereomour circuit back to 2A3, and will either use the JJ or if there is a problem, I will get a pair of standard Shuguangs.
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Just want to let folks know that I received an e-mail from eurotubes letting me know that they will now warranty the JJ 2a3-40 for use in the Stereomour.
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Excellent news! Thanks for the update.
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Fantastic! Thanks to those at Bottlehead who helped sort out the issue with Eurotubes. I'll be in Portland on Monday and still haven't replaced the tubes in my Stereomour. I think I'll swing by Eurotubes and pick me up a set of JJ's!
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I'll give em' a try also.
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im not a techy or an engineer . However I've had other amps with JJ tubes , namely the EL509 JJ and the EL34/6ca7 amps made , or built by me or a very reputable company. these tubes have failed miserably time after time. Me thinking that the JJ2A3-40 was way overbuilt for the stereomour, went and bought 2 with the blessing of most people on this forum . and surprise I bought 2 from Eurotube , and have not had a problem with them in the 2A3 version or the 45version which I now use , but with 45 tubes. Tubes fail and if the stereomour test out good there should be no problems. buy more sovteks, seems you liked them anyway!!!
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I had one JJ 2A3-40 fail after about one month. Nothing dramatic - just one channel died. No issues since going back to Shuguang 2A3C.
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Good to hear that Eurotubes and Bottlehead have resolved the issue. My pair from them are still singing sweetly and powerfully now for two years. Cheers, Hank in Eugene
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I had one JJ 2A3-40 fail after about one month. Nothing dramatic - just one channel died. No issues since going back to Shuguang 2A3C.
Can you provide any more details? Was is sudden and complete, or did it fade out? Did the filament still glow after it died? Any other observations?
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im not a techy or an engineer . However I've had other amps with JJ tubes , namely the EL509 JJ and the EL34/6ca7 amps made , or built by me or a very reputable company. these tubes have failed miserably time after time. Me thinking that the JJ2A3-40 was way overbuilt for the stereomour, went and bought 2 with the blessing of most people on this forum . and surprise I bought 2 from Eurotube , and have not had a problem with them in the 2A3 version or the 45version which I now use , but with 45 tubes. Tubes fail and if the stereomour test out good there should be no problems. buy more sovteks, seems you liked them anyway!!!
??? I didn't know that JJ made 45's.
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??? I didn't know that JJ made 45's.
They don't.
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no sorry ,like mr. Joppa said they don't. Went to the 45 conversion..........wont comment on the 45 tube here!
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Quick update to close out this thread. Had a quick 2 day vacation to Portland last week and called EuroTubes before I left home to set up an appointment to pick up a pair of the 2A3-40's while I was down there. Eddie (the EuroTubes tech) hadn't seen a Stereomour in person, so asked me to bring my amp down so he could look it over and take a listen.
Dropped it off on Monday afternoon at their small shop in a Portland residential suburb, and it was clear that Eddie and the rest of the crew have a passion for tubes and tube amps, in the same way that Bottlehead has a passion for their amp products and Blumenstein with their handcrafted speakers. Most of the Eurotubes business revolves around guitar amps, but they also support and enjoy the hi-fi scene as well.
Picked up the amp on Tuesday before heading back to Seattle. Eddie had installed the new JJ tubes and also tightened a couple loose nuts (must've come loose on the drive down in my old vibration-ridden diesel truck). I missed the listening session he had with the amp since I arrived just before they closed, but he gave a favorable review. He also suggested a JJ ECC81 input tube for $16 since the stock tube was measuring 10% out of balance, so I figured why not.
After hooking it up at home to my Orcas, my overall impression is noticeably more definition from top to bottom. Brighter (but not shrill) highs without any compromise to the low end. Bass is, without a doubt, more defined. The JJ's provide a different sound and overall, in my book, a substantial and cost-worthy improvement. The Stereomour with Sovteks was wonderful, but the JJ 2A3-40's have definitely kicked it up a notch. I'm a happy customer. That's with the stock 12AT7 tube and with just a few hours on the 2A3-40's. I'll install the JJ ECC81 in the next few days for comparison.
I'll note that the 2A3-40's have stunning looks, as well. Taller and wider than the Sovteks. Sufficiently elegant such that my wife voiced her approval. The branding is on the ceramic base of the tube, too, rather than on the glass, which I like. With the way the pin sockets are oriented on the Stereomour, the branding ends up facing mostly to the rear, so can't be seen from the front of the amp.
Again, huge thanks to the Bottlehead crew for making contact with Eurotubes to sort out the concerns.
A few photos of the new tubes in my Stereomour below. The ECC81 was installed after the first photo to show the full complement of JJ's, but I haven't listened to it yet.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eApTm0g9DB8/VK7ABgR4thI/AAAAAAAACMg/P0qkDJ8tv6g/s640/IMG_9182.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mvkvdi_NCEw/VK7ACKXXl7I/AAAAAAAACMo/PjXzsdZj_TY/s640/IMG_9183.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-35SXGj3iJzc/VK7ACRKzy_I/AAAAAAAACM0/41TrIOrgHwA/s640/IMG_9184.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GRHAGYImwHE/VK7ACyZcCeI/AAAAAAAACM4/-lAMl1PZ8g4/s640/IMG_9186.JPG)
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I placed an order for these 3 tubes and no questions asked. Looking forward to these.
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I placed an order for these 3 tubes and no questions asked. Looking forward to these.
I just ordered a pair of the JJ 2A3-40s and one of their pre-amp tube damping rings. For $4 it is worth giving it a try. I'm going to stick with my Mullard tube for the time being.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^Your set ups similar to mine. Same, VPI, DV, Musical surroundings, Stereomour.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^Your set ups similar to mine. Same, VPI, DV, Musical surroundings, Stereomour.
Cool! Have you made a sandbox isolation table for the VPI? I found the plans for one awhile back and it made a noticeable improvement. The wood box sits on hand balls cut in half. A polycarbonate sheet sits on the sand. I sealed the polycarbonate to box gap with wool felt. I attached a photo. Hopefully it will upload.
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Interesting, thanks
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I placed an order for these 3 tubes and no questions asked. Looking forward to these.
They arrived today and they are quite a step up from the stock tubes. They mellowed out the briteness of the Cornwall's and really gave the mid range a kick in the pants. I'm impressed. Less that an hour's playtime.
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I'm ruined by the SET side of things. I've had a pp el34 amp out on loan for a few months and it came back today. I put it back in rotation and it's nice but thin/less detailed and a bit in your face sounding. I'm going to leave it and see if my wife figures it out. Kind of like a $25 bottle of wine compared to a $60 bottle.
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Sorry bout that. Forgot to mention the side effects of SET before you joined the fray. ;)
I'll try to save you from future "ruinedness"". Whatever you do, do not get a pair of Altec Duplexes!
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^^^that's the guy who sold his Stereomour to me.
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They arrived today and they are quite a step up from the stock tubes. They mellowed out the briteness of the Cornwall's and really gave the mid range a kick in the pants. I'm impressed. Less that an hour's playtime.
I've had my JJ 2A3-40 tubes now for awhile and can say I really, no I really really like them!
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+1 and we have intergated a Quickie into the fray.
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I'll pile on with the loving the JJ 2a3 in the Stereomour. I tried to order them several months (I think Sept) when the issues where being explored but they wouldn't let me. I ordered them two weeks ago on Wed and they arrived that Friday. So the delivery was amazingly quick too. I have put at least 150 hours (couple of 24 hr days) on them rolling and breaking in 3 12AT7. They have excellent bass, drums are fantastic, top to bottom great. I have not a/b'd to the RCA 2a3 (dual blackplate)that I have but I know the bass and percussion hit me right off as holly smokes with the JJ.
Eric
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Feeling like a hermit spinning LP's all day long when it in the 70's and there's plenty of chores outside to get done. Wish it would rain.
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ee: Received mine about a week ago. Just awesome. I haven't put on my headphones since the JJ's arrived.
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Ordered a Psvane 12AT7 from China today. Whats another $100 bucks after the thousands invested so far. Will this every end? Probably not! Wonder whats next. Wonder what a Bepree will do for this system? I have no idea!
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I have a Psvane 12AT7. It's quite detailed. A bit on the brite side when used with a DV 10X5. I have a Quickie pushing my Stereomour. I like it. There's a bit of hum so I back down the volume to just above the noise floor.
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Ordered a Psvane 12AT7 from China today. Whats another $100 bucks
You can buy quite a pile of Telefunken 12AT7's for $100.
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Thats two for 100 paul. A single tube was 65. Lot of bucks for a 12AT7.