Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => BeePre => Topic started by: rockpassion on January 06, 2016, 08:07:15 PM
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Ok, For 2016 I am looking to do some minor mods to my BeePre. I am looking to upgrade the 10uf 250 volt capacitors (the capacitors near the on/off switch, what are these capacitors called). I think I am going to use the Mundorf MCap Supreme Silver Oil or the Mundorf MCap Supreme Silver Gold Oil. I believe these are rather big so I will need to figure out how to mount them. My question is do I need to stay at 10uf or should I go lower or higher, both are rated at 1000 V. I am outputting to Quicksilver V4's if that helps.
These are pretty costly and I have read great reviews but wonder what kind of performance enhancement I might expect. Is this overkill or should I look at getting some Russian PIO capacitors. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks
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not having a beepree--so not knowing what these caps do--my 2 cents is speculative-- the mundorf silver oil or I myself would consider the Jupiter 300v round case -I use the Jupiter caps a lot--don't rule out obbligato caps either--russian pio's are always very good but 10uf might be excessively large--and of course the capacitor thing is selective and always good for a discussion-
Howie
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That is a though one, personally i'm in love with the Jupiter flat stacked HT capacitors, i much prefer them over the Mundorfs. Unfortunately capacitors of those sizes get very expensive very quickly.
The only Russian capacitors i know of in those size/voltage are the box cans, either the silver MBGCH, or the grey K73P-4. Personally i think the K73 are the better sounding. Good news is they are cheap as chips, and certainly worth experimenting with to see if changing the capacitors does anything for you before spending big bucks.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/K73P-4-Paper-PIO-capacitor-10uF-250V-tol-1-Lot-of-4-/251312649836?hash=item3a8366b66c:g:x9YAAOxyXTRR95qW (http://www.ebay.com/itm/K73P-4-Paper-PIO-capacitor-10uF-250V-tol-1-Lot-of-4-/251312649836?hash=item3a8366b66c:g:x9YAAOxyXTRR95qW)
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Spending the money on a 1000V cap is not necessarily the best plan, as the price of the capacitor and its size will go up to meet the specifications for the high voltage rating. When the size gets to be that large, the leads coming out of the cap become unusually large, and you really must find a way to secure the cap against the chassis so that those leads don't snap off under the weight of the cap.
(I personally just put the 10uF Russian caps in mine)
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Are the caps I am talking about coupling caps if not what do they do in the circuit.
Thanks
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Are the caps I am talking about coupling caps
Yes, the 10uF caps are coupling caps.
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Paul, thanks.
Another question. I have been reviewing Johnsonad modifications to the output capacitors. He used a teflon bypass capacitor. My thought is to do the same type of mod only use Russian KBG 10uf or KF75-10 10uf capacitors, then bypass with some FT3 teflon capacitors. My first question is how to determine the value of the bypass capacitors. The FT3 seem to only be available in .1, .47, and .22 uf values. Also what would be the minimal voltage value.
thanks again.
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Paul,
What type of Russian caps did you install and which caps did you modify. Have you had time to evaluate their performance.
While I really like my BeePre's I have found the feedback here at BH forums is so good that I could not let this go. It seems in this case that an inexpensive mod can make a fairly nice change so it makes sense to me to do it. Also, as a hobby I lie to tinker where and when I can.
Thanks
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To be clear, there is no real science to determining these film bypass cap values. The rule of thumb is typically use one around 0.1 to 0.1uF. My experience has not been that the positive outweighs the negative with this method. Other folks really like it.
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On bypass capacitors how important is the Voltage rating. I can get some k40-9y 0.1uf at 1000v. Is it ok if I am bypassing a 400v - 650v capacitor?
I am always confused about voltage on capacitors. Is it ok to go higher and what affect does it have if any?
Thanks
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Higher voltage is fine. A 0.1uF at 1000V cap may be physically larger than a 10uF at 250V cap.
I agree with Doc B. that bypassing coupling caps almost always does too many things that I don't like.
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thanks guys, I respect your opinions and you have always been on the money in the past so, I will forgo the bypass and just experiment with replacing the output and coupling capacitors.
I have ordered a couple of different types of Russian capacitors and will try an A/B comparison. I do not (at this time) plan on buying more expensive capacitors. I will post my results.
Thanks for all the help.
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On bypass capacitors how important is the Voltage rating. I can get some k40-9y 0.1uf at 1000v. Is it ok if I am bypassing a 400v - 650v capacitor?
I am always confused about voltage on capacitors. Is it ok to go higher and what affect does it have if any?
Thanks
The only thing you need to consider when deciding on the voltage of a cap is the voltage of the circuit where it is placed.
For example, the output cap supplied for the S.E.X. is rated at 630V. This cap is in part of the circuit that could see a maximum potential of 375V.
The voltage of the cap must always be NO LESS THAN the maximum voltage it will encounter at any time. A good rule of thumb is to go twice the circuit voltage, but this is probably "belt and suspenders" conservatism.
Any higher voltage than necessary to protect the cap from excessive potential is a waste. Higher voltage does not mean higher performance, it just means that the cap will be physically larger to account for the additional diaelectric required for that higher voltage.
Lesson learned: I recently replaced a cap in another amp I was building and did not even think about the voltage rating. I placed a 16V rated cap in a 25V circuit. It didn't last 30 seconds before it overheated, popped, and released its magic white smoke. (Like the Direct TV commercial,"don't be that guy!").
edited to correct the output capacitor rating to 630V
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It is important to factor in the power supply voltages when the circuit is not under any load. For example on power up there is delay before for tubes heat up and start to conduct. Where there might be a nominal voltage of 375v in normal use, it could be floating over 400v until the tubes have warmed up. In which case a 400v rated cap would be on the ragged edge of safety during startup, hence the use of higher rated 600v caps.
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Voltage ratings are a bit of an over-simplification. Here's a 4-page white paper from CDE:
http://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/filmAPPguide.pdf
On page 3 at the bottom right there is a plot of lifetime vs. temperature and voltage, which gives a more nuanced picture.
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It's also important to consider the AC component, especially with those parallel feed capacitors. In the Stereomour, for example, we have 300V DC plate to cathode across the cap, but when you put signal through that 2A3, there's potentially 120V of AC plate signal riding on top of that. A 400V-500V rated cap is not going to like this, but the 630V cap has the margin tolerate this abuse.
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Voltage ratings are a bit of an over-simplification. Here's a 4-page white paper from CDE:
http://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/filmAPPguide.pdf
On page 3 at the bottom right there is a plot of lifetime vs. temperature and voltage, which gives a more nuanced picture.
It's also important to consider the AC component, especially with those parallel feed capacitors. In the Stereomour, for example, we have 300V DC plate to cathode across the cap, but when you put signal through that 2A3, there's potentially 120V of AC plate signal riding on top of that. A 400V-500V rated cap is not going to like this, but the 630V cap has the margin tolerate this abuse.
Paul & P.B.
Excellent resource and information guys.
Always learning and moving forward.
Thanks
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Paul, or anyone, do you hav another source for the Russian caps you mentioned? I was scouring eBay and cannot find those particular ones, and I like the looks of them as they have a 1% tolerance. If I find a pair I'm going to shoot them out against the mundorf sio that I have in there now.
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@Analogluvr It seems the K73 line of Russian caps came in a few different flavors/packages.
There is seller from Ukraine advertising packs of 8 of the K73-16 variant for $30. These are PETP but axial mount, reasonably sized, and probably actually easier to use in the build.
However, before you go running off to buy them from that guy, the reason I know this is because I just got a pack of 8 in for my BeePre - but I don't need the other 4 ;)
Shoot me a PM if you'd like to experiment with these at cost.
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@Analogluvr It seems the K73 line of Russian caps came in a few different flavors/packages.
There is seller from Ukraine advertising packs of 8 of the K73-16 variant for $30. These are PETP but axial mount, reasonably sized, and probably actually easier to use in the build.
However, before you go running off to buy them from that guy, the reason I know this is because I just got a pack of 8 in for my BeePre - but I don't need the other 4 ;)
Shoot me a PM if you'd like to experiment with these at cost.
I'm starting to build my BeePre- I'll buy them if still available and the other member doesn't want them. :)
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Hello All,
I replaced the 10uf coupling capacitors with the Russian Teflon FT3 Capacitors. While they are not nearly broken in I have noticed a major improvement in the bass, it is now much deeper and more powerful. The next thing is clarity in the soundstage. I can really hear instruments more distinctly and clearer placement. Plus, there is just an overall smoothness I did not have before. The highs have mellowed a little (which is good in my system) but they are still real nice.
All in all, given input by others these might take up to 400 hours to break in. Should be a fun journey.
Richard
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I don't see Russian Teflon FT3 has 10uf big values? are you using small value like 0.1uf to bypass the original 10uf?
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I don't see Russian Teflon FT3 has 10uf big values?
They don't, well not that I've seen. Generally available are 0.1, 0.22 & 0.47uF values.
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Gentlemen,
You are right, the capacitors are K75-10V, PIO. Sorry about that. The FT3's were put in my Eros.
Even these I believe are much better than the stock Capacitors. The big issue is the size. They are about 3 inches long and about 1.5 inches in diameter. The fit but just barely.
Richard
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I had upgraded my caps with Claritycap MR 10uf and have been happy with the sound for a few years. But Icant leave well enough alone.
I had 4 Mundorf Supreme silver/gold/oil 2.7uF caps I intended for my Rogue Atlas Magnum amp, but they won't fit. So I put 2 in my quickie preamp (effectively tripling the cost of the quickie) in the bedroom and WOW what a change.
I just replaced the Claritycaps in my Bee Pre with the Mundorfs and after 75 hours or so of breaking so far, they are taking my sound to another level of imaging and 'booginess'. I'm sitting here listening to Elton John on vinyl and can't stop moving. At 20 hours they sounded horrible like a really cheap cartridge. I'm guessing I need 150 hrs or so to be considered fully settled in.
Question on the value of 2.7uF vs original 10uF... I've read in other threads that this value should be fine for coupling. But should I be concerned about anything? Rogue has 1Mohm input impedance.
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There is an online calculator on the V-Cap website that helps you to determine the right capacitance for your system. Very useful.
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I purchased the Mundorf Supreme Silver Gold 3.3 uF and when they arrived they looked too big to mount them. So I decided to put them on eBay, but there were no buyers and they were lying on my desk and I decided to give it a try. I mounted one on the orginal position and the other one was mounted vertical as the BeeQuiet was taking up space. The leads of the Mundorf capacitors are thick and by soldering they would stay in position but I used tie-wraps to fix them.
The sound impression after power-on was noticably better, more open and detailed but I need to have them run in for some time.
(https://image.ibb.co/kpHTWQ/Mundorf.gif)
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If we made a preamp as big as a Volkswagen someone would make a capacitor as big as a Cadillac, and someone else would be determined to put it in the preamp. ;)
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Something about that (Cadillacs and Volkswagens) reminded me of those old hot rod monster cartoons (see linked image) which inspired my little illustration (a little off the topic of this thread, as it's more headphone-centric than BeePree centric, but so be it).
https://www.google.com/search?q=monster+cartoons+hot+rod+60%27s&tbm=isch&imgil=rnwmkiyzmZU8yM%253A%253BeVIaUyVJnNzblM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.pinterest.com%25252Fkevinwollershei%25252Fchildhood-bubble-gum-cards%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=rnwmkiyzmZU8yM%253A%252CeVIaUyVJnNzblM%252C_&usg=__GxuHrlAqWN0gGt6lk7L8ClgiSR0%3D&biw=1320&bih=760&ved=0ahUKEwi0mc_LtbPTAhXGy1QKHZHtD6QQyjcIMw&ei=89z4WPTTI8aX0wKR27-gCg#imgrc=rnwmkiyzmZU8yM:
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That's great, you should have your own badge made...John
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t shirts!
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If we made a preamp as big as a Volkswagen someone would make a capacitor as big as a Cadillac, and someone else would be determined to put it in the preamp. ;)
Sorry Doc, just had to do it!
As someone said before, these Mundorfs have heavy, stiff leads that make them structural.
In this case to protect the big caps from the heatsinks I zip-tied silicone lids from broken coffee cups to the stick-on tie mounts for the Daytons.
Has worked very well for the last half year.
Now I'm going to try these undersized silver / copper CAST Duelunds as per the vcap calculator (.8 was enough to mate with Kaiju input impedance).
If the bass suffers I can stab them in a phono stage I have that uses 1uF.
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Spending the money on a 1000V cap is not necessarily the best plan, as the price of the capacitor and its size will go up to meet the specifications for the high voltage rating. When the size gets to be that large, the leads coming out of the cap become unusually large, and you really must find a way to secure the cap against the chassis so that those leads don't snap off under the weight of the cap.
(I personally just put the 10uF Russian caps in mine)
I have some MBGO 10uF 300V PIOs- is this good example of the "Russian caps" you're referring to? This cap is relatively small- an easy fit. Better Russian options? Do you/can you recommend cathode bypass caps for the 300Bs in the BeePre? I saw you used some Jantzen non-electrolytic Crosscaps as cathode bypass in your Paramounts- I have done the same. Thanks in advance, Kip......
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I have 10uF/200V MGBO in my BeePre.
Bypass caps in the BeePre need to be 10,000uF, so the choices are pretty limited. We put the best cap in that was available when we created the BeePre. Now there is the Nichicon KA cap that's a newer model that might be a hair better, but they seem to go in and out of stock pretty frequently.
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Thanks Paul :)