Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Stereomour II => Topic started by: Tom-s on May 16, 2019, 03:58:38 AM
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Let's start a topic to share experiences with tube rolling in the Stereomour II.
Please share your opinion on different tubes in SII!
SI users are welcome to share aswel!
I'll try to keep this startpost up to date with what tubes to use in SII.
The list of tubes to use in the drivers seat:
12AT7(W)(A)(B)(C)
ECC81 (https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=11593.msg105264#msg105264)
E81CC (https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/190/e/E81CC.pdf)
ECC801S (https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/117/e/ECC801S.pdf)
6201 (http://www.tubebooks.org/tubedata/HB-3/Receiving-Type_Industrial_Tubes/6201.PDF)
6060 (https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/201/6/6060.pdf)
CV455
CV4024
A2900 (http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/pdf/a2900.pdf)
TS65
B309 (https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/126/b/B309.pdf)
M8162
7728 (http://frank.yueksel.org/sheets/201/7/7728.pdf)
6679 (https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/6/6679.pdf)
Not direct equivalent, optional:
5965 familiy (E180CC = 7062 (https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=4686.0) = CV8431 = 6829 = 6414)
6211
Do note: some have minor electrical differences from ECC81 / 12AT7, but can be used in SII.
The list of tubes to use in the output position:
2A3 (https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/021/2/2A3.pdf)
5930 (https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/201/5/5930.pdf)
VT-95
CV1831
#2A3-40 (https://www.jj-electronic.com/images/stories/product/power_tubes/pdf/2a3-40.pdf)
300B 2.5V (EML (solid and Mesh / Sophia)
! 45 (https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/021/4/45.pdf)(145,245, 345 etc.)
#The extra power available with these tubes not being used in SII.
! Needs some modification. https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=11138.0
The 6.3v heater winding is rated 1.5 amps.
The 2A3 filament windings are actually 3.15 volts at 5.5Arms. (The high current rating allows for DC heating, which is an optional upgrade for those with extremely sensitive speakers.) In both AC and DC cases, the filaments have small series resistors to fine-tune the voltage.
EML 2A3 or 45 tubes in SII: https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=3054.0
Guarantee conditions: http://www.emissionlabs.com/cd.htm
So. It's ok in a stock SII. If you replace the interstage coupling (0.1uf, 600V) with a paper in oil type coupling capacitor, it will void warranty.
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Hell yes, excellent timing as I’m constructing mine now.
Might I suggest formatting this post the same way as the Crack thread, where there’s a section for tubes that can be dropped in with no mods and a section for tubes where mods are necessary (like it seems to be for ECC81/12AT7 - unless I’m misreading)? You could add 45s to the list of “usable with mods,†right?
EDIT: Ha - looks like you edited this right as I posted to add 45s.
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Tom,
I am not a huge tube roller, but I think the following list are also 12AT7 compatible:
6211
5965
6414
6829
6679
7728
TS65
M8162
I am no expert on these, so part (or all) of this list may be redundant with respect to your list.
Jamie
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A lot of those are not directly compatible. They might be a near miss, but they would need optimization of the operating point to perform at their best.
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Thanks, Tom! I have a SII on order, so I can see this thread to be super useful.
I like idea of categorizing those that are direct drop-ins vs. those that might need modifications.
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Tom,
I am not a huge tube roller, but I think the following list are also 12AT7 compatible:
6211
5965
6414
6829
6679
7728
TS65
M8162
I am no expert on these, so part (or all) of this list may be redundant with respect to your list.
Jamie
The reason Doc mentioned is the reason i didn't include them in the list.
The 6211, 5965 families are different and need modification.
7728, TS65 and M8162 are special quality equivalents and i'll add them.
A lot of those are not directly compatible. They might be a near miss, but they would need optimization of the operating point to perform at their best.
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So let's discus the different types.
Because i have to do something while waiting for the SII.
First things first.
The ECC81
Mentioned: Dec1950, Market: 1951.
Twin triode, the European version of the 12AT7, especially designed for VHF, also good to use in audio amplifiers; high amplification, low internal resistance.
https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ecc81.html (https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ecc81.html)
It is a direct replacement in SII.
From personal experience, don't look at the label of the tubes, look at the tube factory codes for European tubes.
These tell you more about the actual tube than the label does.
Tube data: https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/010/e/ECC81.pdf (https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/010/e/ECC81.pdf)
Philips tube code: https://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB.pdf
In the Philips ECC81 collection i've seen:
Delta -> Heerlen (The Netherlands)
R -> Mitcham (England) (Mullard)
B -> Blackburn (England) (Mullard)
D -> Hamburg (Germany) (Valvo)
‡ -> Munich (Germany) (Siemens)
F -> Suresnes (France) (La Radiotechnique)
I've added an example. It's an Adzam (Belgium) labeled, Mullard Blackburn factory build, ECC81 pair (three holed plates are typical for certain versions of ECC81 build in this factory).
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The 6201 (12AT7WA). Ruggerized ECC81/12AT7 with military / industrial designation (computer).
Milspec version of the type 12AT7. Genuine versions of these have extra thick mica wafers to help eliminate microphonics. Some have extra support rods which give even more stability.
As can be seen in the datasheet, they were build shock and vibration resistant for mobile use. This makes them very usable in audio applications.
Philips 6201: https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/009/6/6201.pdf
Sometimes these were relabeled ECC801S in Europe. An ECC801S tube is build within the 12AT7WA/6201 spec. But not every 6201 is a ECC801S tube.
Here's a ECC801s (Valvo) from my collection that's build like a Valvo 6201, and a telefunken pair for comparison.
https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17201911/p5pb17201911.jpg (https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17201911/p5pb17201911.jpg)
Telefunken ECC801s datasheet: https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/117/e/ECC801S.pdf Do note the long life heater specs the 6201 are missing.
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Heads up that TubeDepot has a 24 hour sale on JJ 2A3s. 15% off!
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The waiting game for a new Bottlehead kit is always the hardest part...
So! Another tube to roll in SII.
Aside from Philips and Telefunken there's a few other interesting EU tube manufacturers.
The American International Telephone and Telegraph company ITT (Western Electric) had two known subsidiary companies; Brimar (British Manufactured American Radio) and Lorenz (Germany).
The 6060 (https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/201/6/6060.pdf) is an 12AT7 special version from Brimar with square black plates. The ones with the "yellow-T" on the back would be the "special quality" versions according to the internet. The CV4024 (CV=Common Valve, a military designation) is a military designation of this tube. Beware CV4024 is also used for Mullard military Ecc81's.
Other names for a Brimar ECC81 (see below) are CV4033 and 13D9 (these are less known names and can be found for less money because of this).
From the Lorenz company i've found many relabeled versions. Some are called Lorenz, ITT, SEL, others have just written the tube type on them. Common with a lot of these is extra mica supports. And they are physically obese/large compared to ECC tubes from other companies (though not as fat as Tungsram, but close).
From my experience with ECC82's, tubes from these companies are, while found for less money, just as good sounding as other manufacturers'.
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I’ve got a set of Mullards on the way. It sounded in your email like you think the smaller tubes have a bigger influence on sound than the 2A3s. I’m curious about that (not doubting you at all, just wondering) since it seems like the final stage would be the most important. Any thoughts?
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The least liner tube will tend to exhibit the most influence on the sound. 2A3s, 300B, 45s, 845s, etc. are pretty linear. The small signal tubes are not typically as linear. There are however a lot of other factors that need to be considered in a given circuit besides linearity - gain, maximum voltage output, etc.
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I'm not educated on the electric part.
So i look at it from my simple perspective:
1. Driver tubes make a better option for tube rolling as they are generally >10x cheaper.
2. The second tube in the circuit only amplifies the signal coming from the first tube. This makes the second tube also amplify all the "defects" made by the first tube.
3. Availability and price? Did anyone mention price? :-X
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I’m really happy to hear that since those 2A3s are cost prohibitive to roll whereas I can do a lot more on the smaller ones. Thanks, guys.
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The least liner tube will tend to exhibit the most influence on the sound. 2A3s, 300B, 45s, 845s, etc. are pretty linear. The small signal tubes are not typically as linear. There are however a lot of other factors that need to be considered in a given circuit besides linearity - gain, maximum voltage output, etc.
Linearity, that's the point where certain tubes in the first post seem to differ.
Greater linearity is the reason, some say the GEC A2900's (http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/pdf/a2900.pdf) would sound better than your average ECC81. Making them the (being unobtanium) king of ECC81, blabla.
Picture of these. (https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb16964149/p5pb16964149.jpg)
Edit: I have looked at the tube curves and they do look more linear? But i'm like a blind man looking at these things.
Another quote on linear tubes:
One of the most noticeable changes is that we have gone to a 5670/2C51/WE396A tube as the driver. Why? Partly because a lot of folks found that the 12AT7 had to much gain in their system which led to hair trigger volume controls and a bit more transmission of the noise floor from front end equipment than they liked. The 5670 has a mu of 33 as opposed to the mu of 60 of the 12AT7. The 5670 is also a very sweet sounding, particularly linear tube, that we feel is step up sonically from the typical 12AT7. There’s enough variety of brands to make tube rolling interesting and it is not prohibitively expensive.
Edit: how to use 5670 https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=8687.0
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Alright, finally! After about 10 days of no forward momentum on my first shipment from TubeDepot they sent along a second package of Electro-Harmonix Gold 2A3s and Mullard NOS 12AT7s (CV4024).
I'm rolling both in this week and I'll share some impressions. I started with the Mullards and noticed a flash at the bottom of each tube on startup that I never noticed with my previous tubes. Anything to be worried about there?
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That is the Mullard flash, and it's normal for Mullard tubes.
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Thanks, I wasn't aware that was a thing. Just like I wasn't aware that Sovtek and Electro-Harmonix are the same company so I basically paid a little more for a different brand name.
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I don't believe the Sovtek 2A3 has the gold plated grid wire.
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Ah ok, so there's at least one difference. Money well spent! The Mullard are sounding great so far, though.
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I've had my newly built SII for about 2 weeks now and was able to compare the stock GE 12AT7 to a pair of Tungsram ECC81's. I've attached a couple of pictures comparing their physical constructions, with the GE on the left. Soundwise, here's a quick description: They are very similar in bass and mids. Bass is impactful and quick, and the mids sound natural and neutral. The highs are the distinguishing characteristics. The GE highs are a bit harsh and peaky, whereas the Tungsram's are smoother, more even, but without loss of detail.
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Sweet - thanks for sharing!
If you got them recently, please post again when they have some burn-in time (especially the GE) - sometimes there is a break-in effect, but not always. Even tubes that are used but have sat unused for years might still need to be run in for a while to be at their best - it would be great to get more data.
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Sweet - thanks for sharing!
If you got them recently, please post again when they have some burn-in time (especially the GE) - sometimes there is a break-in effect, but not always. Even tubes that are used but have sat unused for years might still need to be run in for a while to be at their best - it would be great to get more data.
The GE's probably have at least 70 hrs on them. Right now I'm enjoying the Tungsrams, but maybe later I'll put the GE's back in for further burn-in to see if there would be any difference.
I should also note that one of the GE's is weaker than the other, as evident from the driver triode plate voltage being ~235V, which is at the high end of the spec'd range. The "normal" tube's plate voltage is ~215V. Swapping sides shows that the other triode of the weaker tube is also weak. So maybe the condition of this weaker tube along with the mismatch between tubes results in what I'm hearing.
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GE 12AT7 to a pair of Tungsram ECC81's
As i said on the previous page, the Tungsrams are some seriously obese tubes. ???
That is the Mullard flash, and it's normal for Mullard tubes.
The "Mullard flash" is also normal on most Philips tubes from other factories (also normal on GEC tubes).
It's a result of the current in-rush property of cold filaments/conductors (the resistance rises with temperature).
Don't worry about it. I've even seen tubes where 1 filament did flash and the other didn't. Never had trouble with any.
I've just started tube rolling with the SII and found one very interesting result. There's tubes that are preferred with my speakers (Klipsch Heresy III's), not with the headphones AKG K1000's and vice versa.
For instance: Telefunken ECC81's, love them with headphones (great frequency extension, huge soundstage, etc etc, a bit much of bass), but with the speakers the voices are placed so far back they sound distant/damped/faint. This difference ain't small and is due to both the transducer (speaker vs headphone) as the effect of the room on sound from speakers.
I haven't found the time yet to compare tubes. Mainly because i'm upgrading some caps in the SII first (done with PS, parafeed and coupling caps, cathode bypass to do). In the testbox there's 10 pairs of Eu tubes at this point: Telefunken ECC81/801s, Hamburg 6201/PW, Blackburn TK1, Heerlen TK1, French 6201's (double and tripe mica), Brimar 6060's and General Electric Company 2900's.
EDIT:
My review for now (with speakers).
ECC81 TK1 Heerlen factory (Foil D getter): Full, warm, detailed; has "musicality"; recommended.
ECC81 TK1 Blackburn factory (square getter): Detailed, more analytical sounding tube, sparkle up top (a bit much for me, crazy prices, not recommended).
6201 Hamburg factory (gold pins, round foil getter): Warm, big soundstage, good details yet musical (found for 50€/pair on that selling website, recommended).
6201 PW Hamburg factory (gold pins, dual support halo getter, pinched waist): very close to normal Valvo, unobtanium, not recommended)
ECC81 Telefunken Berlin factory: Air, detailed, missing midrange some sort, analytical.
ECC801s Telefunken Ulm factory: Air, details placed in good soundstage, nice bass (not cheap +-150-200€/pair, but recommended).
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Rolling output tubes. First up. The RCA single plate. "The original 2A3".
This is a pair i've been waiting to try for very long.
I've changed the operating point on my SII to suit them. I would not recommend using a pair like this in a normal Stereomour.
These are paired with my most used drivers, GEC A2900's.
The warranty band says 20 June 1936.
Only this morning i've tested them for the first time, and both show 80-90% (in the good section) on my EICO 666.
How do these sound? I have no clue how to say this.
Very open, large, palpable in the midrange, easy to listen to.
So, what does this mean?
Detailed on top. Lacking a little bass (compared to Sovtek 2A3 and RCA black plate (single/double DD getter). Bringing out every detail and the music seems more detached from the speakers.
These are like headphones that are so easy to listen to that you just have to turn up the volume.
I like them. If this is the involving type of sound (I obviously don't know how to express myself here) people talk about with EML 2A3 Mesh, those are my next tubes.
Fun fact. Did a picture in the dark. And my camera picks up fluorescense inside the glass bulb of the right example that can't be seen with the naked eye. See picture.
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A small word of warning for those interested in buying 2A3 monoplates.
These are actually very very fragile tubes. And it's more easy to find duds than it is to find actually good pairs.
The heater wires in these consist of a single string with 10 (or 20, depends how you count) very thin ascending wires that are suspended inside it's plate structure.
These wires are so thin that they easily burn out/break. All later 2A3's went to a more sturdy filament configuration.
Such a break is easy to spot when buying in person, but not when just buying online (like my tube below).
Always look at every filament wire to see if it's still connected properly. And take a pocket resistance meter with you to check for breaks/shorts.
In other occasions the tube looks perfectly fine but has a cathode -> grid leak. This can't be seen or measured easily without actually testing it.
Here's a picture of a Sylvania monoplate that was DOA. I don't know if it can be seen. But the left 5 heater wires are broken. I unfortunately wasn't able to spot this in the online add.
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From what I've read in various forums on the 6201, it's essentially a ruggedised 12AT7 and seems to be superior in just about every way, a considerably more reliable tube given the harsh testing parameters they must endure. I guess the only thing that was never tested for the 6201 was how well it adapted for audio use and how they sounded, subjective parameters anyway. With so many audio circuits, that would be near impossible to test, and a 6201 would perform differently in each case and human ears are not reliable as test machines! Apart from electric measurements, parameters such as Microphonics, resistance to vibration, and duty cycles of the 6201 would be far superior to the 12AT7, and only matched by the military versions of these.
I've had experience of military grade tubes in some other amps, for example the Russian made 6P15P, 6N2P, 6N1P etc, usually with the mil spec extensions -EV/ER after the tube type. Without exception, these were sonically superior to the non-military ones. The question I have is, should we expect the same of the 6201s?
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You can buy batches of used 12AT7s for not too much money on eBay, and chances are good that a batch might contain a 6201. I'd suggest doing your own research.
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OK, thanks Doc. Do tubes need to be matched?
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It's not terribly important. I'd just look for two that have the same internal construction.
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It's not terribly important. I'd just look for two that have the same internal construction.
Thanks Doc, that makes things a little easier.
A few weeks ago I was reading some posts over at the Decware forum pages and Steve D mentioned the Guiguang as the cheapest 300B he could find. He tested them in his new Sarah 300b amp and was quite impressed with them for the money. With the thought in mind that the 2A3 is a very similar design to the 300B, I looked them up on AliExpress. There seems to be one seller listing a couple of versions of the NOS Guiguang 2A3C. As it turned out, I'd bought from this shop before and had a good experience. The seller knows his stuff and tests/matches his tubes. Yes, he actually does have a tube tester! He purchased what seems to have been the last warehouse stocks of the original Guiguang factory supplies of these, so they are dwindling. I grabbed a pair and they took just a week to arrive in Oz from China, free shipping too!
I've had them in the newly built Stereomour II for a few days. (By the way, the S-IIis the best amplifier I've ever heard, and Kim agrees. She says we should sell our A50/300B now!) Anyway, compared with the very smooth and laid back Psvanes, these Guiguang 2A3Cs sounded rather edgy, coarse and shouty. Anyway, I left them in the amp as I was just listening to local radio and Radio Paradise at low volume while I worked. Two nights ago, Kim and I settled in with a nice bottle of local Shiraz for some serious listening. The speakers I hooked up were our favourites, the 15ohm Leak Sandwich Minis and we played, Dire Straits, Diana Krall's Turn Up The Quiet, Sil Austin, Ben Webster, and a long time favourite, Brubeck's Last Set At Newport. It was a mind-blowing experience, because suddenly these Guiguangs seemed to have come to life. Gone was all the edginess. The mid-range was smooth and lush, the bass was musical and tight, and the highs were crisp and sparkling. They were everything we look for in a nice power tube really. I'm comparing them with our TJ Full Music 300B Mesh Plates in our A50, except this S-II amp and Gui 2A3 combo does it so much better.
This morning, I ordered another pair, as these NOS 2A3Cs will be gone forever when they run out. They don't break the bank and they sound insanely good. Now, how long they will last, I have no idea. But at this price you can buy a few pairs and still be in front of some of the pricey offerings out there!
I just thought I'd share this experience with those who might be looking out for an excellent sounding 2A3 for their S-II for not much money.
PS. Note that there are two versions of the Guiguang 2A3C. One has a white ceramic base with gold pins. The other has a black base with silver pins. I'm not sure of any other differences, but the one I reviewed above has the white base and gold pins.
PSS. The seller advised that the only difference between the two Guiguang 2A3C types is the silver pins and the black base, otherwise it’s the same tube.
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If anyone else would like to try these Guiguang 2A3C tubes with their S-IIs, make sure you get them from a reputable supplier. I have found Hi-end Tubeaudio Store on AliExpress to be excellent. They have a tube tester and test all their tubes before sending them out. Shipping has been fast and they are very responsive to messages asking questions.
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Thanks for the experience with the Guiguang 2A3C.
I had problem with the Psvane that’s comes with the Stereomour II and the problem was cold solder on tubes pins (thanks Paul). The problem with Psvane is resolved. Because it’s a good idea to have a backup tubes and base on your review I decided to order a pair Guiguang 2A3C. I received my order and after 4 days of playing music, I confirm your evaluation. I think also that the Guiguang 2A3C has more drive and punch than the Psvane. For now, the Guiguang 2A3C will continue to play music in my Stereomour.
Thanks again.
Yves
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Yes, they get better and better in my experience. I ordered the white base and the black base versions. Like the PSvanes from Bottlehead, they had stickers with numbers on them, ie. 55 on one set and 79 on the other set. What do these numbers mean? Are they a measure of something for matching purposes perhaps?
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The 55 and 79 may indicate the plate current drawn under fixed bias conditions in the tube tester. This is very unimportant in a single ended amp, but could matter a lot more in a push-pull amp.
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If anyone else would like to try these Guiguang 2A3C tubes with their S-IIs, make sure you get them from a reputable supplier. I have found Hi-end Tubeaudio Store on AliExpress to be excellent. They have a tube tester and test all their tubes before sending them out. Shipping has been fast and they are very responsive to messages asking questions.
I ordered a pair last week from High-end Tube Store on your recommendation (thanks!) and received them today. They arrived in perfect condition with matching numbers. White base, gold pins.
I've been using Gold Lions the past couple of days and think these Guigang tubes are as good if not better. Really impressed with them, so much that I ordered another pair for $98 ... why in the heck not???
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why in the heck not???
Some years ago I ordered a pair of Guiguang 300Bs for basically the same reason: they were too cheap not to. One died after about six weeks of use, and the factory totally blew me off when I asked for support. This experience will keep Guiguang tubes out of our inventories unless they are the last possible option.