Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Deke609 on July 17, 2019, 05:49:43 AM
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I’ve been playing around with different parafeed and interstage coupling caps this year and have settled on a combination that works for my tastes: V-Cap ODAM and V-Cap CuTF (no affiliation). The CuTF (copper foil and Teflon dialectric) are well known and well regarded, so I won’t say anything about them other than that they are, to my ears, excellent, and they are pricey.
The ODAM caps are new to the market (released end of May this year). ODAM stands for “oil damped advanced metallizedâ€. What follows details my experiences with and impressions of them.
TL;DR version: great sound in a small, easy to install package.
The ODAM caps may be of particular interest to Bottleheads because, besides sounding great (to my ears), they are (1) small, and (2) less expensive than copper or silver foil caps. Their small size is a standout feature. Copper and silver foil caps are huge and heavy, and can be challenging to install in amps with limited free space. Case in point: I installed 3.3 uF Audyn True Copper Max caps in my SII-2A3. They measure 63mm x 60mm (approx. 2.5 in X 2.5 in). I didn’t want to rebuild or modify the wood base that I’d already finished with copper sheet cladding. To make the caps fit, I ended up removing the MourQuiet attenuators and input selector switch, and moving the power on/off switch to the rear of the amp (in retrospect, I probably could have left the power switch where it was). Even with all that front space of the amp cleared out, the Audyn caps barely fit. Had I used ODAM caps, which are lighter and smaller, I could have installed them with no modification to the amp layout: a 3.3 uF 630 VDC ODAM measures 1 in X 1.9 in.
Were it not for the small size of the ODAM caps, I likely wouldn’t have tried them, on the assumption (which I now think is very wrong) that a “metalized†plastic cap couldn’t compete with copper or silver foils. In my SII-45 amp, I previously had Clarity Cap CMR (metalized polypropylene) as parafeed and interstage coupling caps (4.7 uF and 0.1uF). The CMRs lived up to their name and gave me more “clarity†(detail), but to my ears sounded sterile and lifeless. I eventually added 4 X 0.1 V-Cap CuTFs, 2 as bypass caps for the 4.7 uF CMRs and 2 as replacements for the CMR interstage coupling caps. I’ve mentioned the sonic results in other threads. Suffice it to say that I was very happy with the CuTFs (and still am).
After adding the CuTF caps, I greatly preferred my SII-45 over my SII-2A3 for all music except strings. The 2A3 amp did a much better job on violin and cello. In comparison, the 45 amp was great for string resonance and emotion, but something about the leading sound of bow on string was off: too much resonance without any sharpness. The relative superiority of the 2A3 for strings only increased when I added Duelund 0.01 uF bypass caps to the Audyn parafeeds and CuTF 0.1 UF caps as couplers, and later swapped in EML 2A3 mesh tubes in place of JJ-2A3-40s. With those changes, the SII-2A3 rivalled the 45 for all music. The EML mesh tubes brought about half the “magic†I heard in the 45 but, together with the Audyn/Duelund/CuTF combo, with greater detail and “realismâ€.
I figured the bottleneck in the SII-45 amp was the 4.7 CMRs. Problem: the only way to make 4.7 uF Audyn copper foil caps fit (or any other foil cap) would be to add 2 or more inches to the base. So I decided to try ODAM caps instead: 2 X 2.2 uF ODAMS with 1 X 0.22 uF and 1 X 0.1 uF CuTFs, for a total of 4.7 uF. It was tight, but I managed to fit them all in the stock position without any mods to the layout (Yes, I know I have too many “bypass†caps – I will try removing the 0.1 CuTFs sometime in the near future).
V-Caps take a long time to break in and stabilize. On my first listen after installing, everything sounded washed out and flat. There was no bass and no dynamics. This was expected as I previously installed CuTF caps in both the SII-2A3 and the SII-45 and knew I was in for a wild ride while the caps were breaking in. But after 100+ hrs of burn-in, the 45 amp started to sound stellar. It equalled the 2A3 amp for detail and dynamics, but with much more “emotion†and “depthâ€. I don’t know how to describe the sound: it just sounded really good and immersive to me.
After another 50+ hours of burn-in, I find the 45 amp superior (for my tastes) to the 2A3 in every respect. Now when I compare the 45 amp to the 2A3 amp (for strings and everything else), the 45 is the more detailed and dynamic and “realisticâ€. In comparison, the 2A3 amp sounds a bit congested, with an exaggerated or forced sounding leading edge.
So, if you’re thinking about trying different caps and don’t want to modify the amp layout or base (or even if you do), you might want to consider ODAM caps. I’ve only listened to them bypassed by CuTF caps, so I have not experienced how they sound by themselves, but my guess is that they sound very good and will make a great match for your favorite flavor of bypass cap. Of course, as always, the usual caveats apply: YMMV, system/component synergies matter, etc.
Of potential interest to Beepre owners: Chris VenHaus, owner of V-Cap and VH Audio, plans to release a 10 uF 250 VDC ODAM cap later this year. I plan to replace my 10 uF Clarity Cap CMRs with them.
I am so pleased with the ODAM/CuTF combo in my 45 amp that I have rejigged my plans for my upcoming Kaiju build. Prior to learning about the ODAM caps, I picked up a pair of enormous Miflex 10uF 600 VDC copper foil and oil caps b/c come hell or high water I wanted the sonic benefit of copper foils in my Kaiju. To make them fit, I had planned to make a new and larger chassis. But after hearing how the ODAMS/CuTFS compare to my Audyn/Duelund copper and silver foil combo (even with CuTF coupling cap), I’ve made the hard (on my wallet) decision to go with 3 X 3.3 uF 630 VDC ODAMs bypassed by 0.1 CuTFs as parafeed caps instead (When I asked him, Chris V said he had no plans to make a 10 uF 600+ VDC ODAM cap). As a result, I no longer need a bigger Kaiju chassis.
Now the question is what to do with these preposterously large 10uF Miflex caps? Can anyone tell me if the Jagers use 10uF caps in the x-overs? If not, I need to find these things a new home.
Cheers, Derek
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I agree that the ODAM capacitors are surprisingly good. I had built my Paramount 2A3's with Obbligato parafeed capacitors. I had found the Obbligato's to be a good, warm, relatively inexpensive capacitor in other amps. I've recently been switching back and forth between the 2A3 Paramounts and several different 300B amps I've built, and while I had a clear preference for the Paramounts, I felt they were missing some of the detail and "shimmer" of the 300B amps. I therefore decided to replace the Obbligato's with 3.3 uF ODAM's.
The ODAM's are superior (to my ears) in virtually every way. I still have the warmth, timbre, instrumental body, and yes BASS that I loved about the 2A3 Paramounts. But now I have sort of the best of 2A3s and 300Bs: more detail and "shimmer" too. In addition, backgrounds are blacker and instruments better separated. To be honest, I'm not sure I would change anything about the sonics. Just outstanding!
I just wish the 630V ODAMs came in a size larger than 3.3 uF!
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I just wish the 630V ODAMs came in a size larger than 3.3 uF!
Yeah, I hear ya. Paralleling them is the only option. Fortunately, Chris V. will tightly match the caps if one selects that as a value-added option. The 6 3.3uFs I recently ordered are very tightly matched - well under 0.5% variance.
I share your take that they offer both great detail and "shimmer" - clarity and liveliness and coherence all at once. A very pleasant surprise. I hope the ODAM pricing remains "reasonable" (by boutique cap standards). I suspect they will become very popular.
cheers, Derek
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I am a happy owner of a Mainline headphone amp.
I want to report another success story with ODAM capacitors.
I built a PH16 tube phono preamp with parts upgrades throughout. I ran into a space problem in the first coupling position of the RIAA circuit and settled for a 0.22uf Solen SM film & SN foil which was small enough. The 0.1uf V-cap TFTF I tried first sounded great but was the wrong value for the RIAA curve. After I learned about the ODAM and discovered that it was the same size of the Solen SM I bought a pair and broke them in first using my Mainline. Yesterday I installed them in my PH16. The improvement was immediate and huge! Harshness and congestion gone! More resolution. More musical sounding. I Highly recommend ODAM capacitors as an upgrade to all Bottlehead owners.
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Of potential interest to BeePre owners: Chris Venhaus now has 250V ODAM caps in 10uF, 12uF and 15uf.
I just received mine - 2 x 10uF, matched at 10.02. They'll be going in my slightly modded BeePre, where I presently have absurdly HUGE 10uf 600V Miflex KPCU copper foil caps. I have no listening impressions to report b/c I won't be installing them until later this summer when I find the time and gumption to do the metal work for the final rebuild.
The availability of larger capacitances (12uF and 15uF) is interesting. I didn't even think to ask PB and PJ about the advisability/effects of going up a bit in capacitance -- and instead just ordered the stock value. So if anyone else is thinking of picking up a pair, it might be worth checking with the experts here before committing to a value.
cheers, Derek
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Hi,
I have a Mainline. Will the 250V ODAM caps in 10uF be compatible? The Dayton caps have the same specifications, which I thought will be a suitable change. But I thought I should check first. Thank you for any advise.
With regards,
JH
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If they fit, they would certainly work.
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Would these be an option for the Moreplay?
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Who are you kidding, you will have them installed by the weekend ;D
By the way check out my Don Garber 2a3 amp in general discussion if you haven't already done so.
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Knowing what I know about the Moreplay and planned upgrades, a 10uF upgrade cap would be a decent plan.
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If they fit, they would certainly work.
Thanks, Paul!
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Ordered a pair of V-Cap ODAM 10uF 250v. They fitted nicely.
Sounds amazing! Retains the sound signature of Mainline, as detailed, resolving, transparent. It's so hard to describe the differences, but I will humbly give it a go with my limited exposure to the sonic world.
The soundstage is wider and deeper, with more layers and positions to the front and back. I could also hear the differences in the materials used for the instruments, especially for the drums. The speed is very fast. So fast that in one of the songs, the drumming created a sound pressure effect. It wasn't bad. It still sounded natural, and with a dose of realism.
I listened with a HD800s headphones. With the V-Cap ODAM, the overall frequency range seems to be balanced out. HD800's pitch seems to be tamed. This allowed the mids and bass to come through stronger. But the highs' details and clarity are still there.
I just have to mention that the voltage for the -reg on the Regulator Board come up to 3mV. It couldn't come to 0V. I checked the connections, the resistance, all were ok. I figured it's probably negligible, hooked it up and started listening to it. So far so good. But anyone knowing otherwise, please let me know. :) I will hate losing my Mainline because of the 3mV.
Overall, I am so happy that I took the plunge with the V-Cap ODAM capacitors. Thank you for introducing them!
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Well those don't put too much stress on the available space there!
Yes, 0.003V is plenty close to 0V.
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Overall, I am so happy that I took the plunge with the V-Cap ODAM capacitors. Thank you for introducing them!
How long have you listened to them? Like a lot of other capacitors, I found that the ODAMs went through an initial rough period and then progressively got better, starting with the highs, with the bass being the last to show up. I'd be interested in knowing whether you experience(d) the same thing.
cheers, Derek
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I have playing through them for about 10 hours. A mix of burn-in, instrumentals, vocals, pop. My experience is similar. The bass has started to shine. It's not overwhelming. More of the textures and speed. When the wings of a bird fluttered across, the effect was like I could feel the air beating, moving. What an astonishing experience.
It's not very different from the stock Mainline. The V-cap ODAMs sound like they dig deeper, wider, trailing longer when vocals trail off.
I can't wait for them to reach their full potential, if there's more. I have been trying to hit the emotional spot, and they are feeling close.
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Well those don't put too much stress on the available space there!
Yes, 0.003V is plenty close to 0V.
Thanks for the assurance! Yeah, they fit so nicely in that space. The weight is manageable with it hanging in the air by its soldered legs.
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Cool. If you're willing, please share your impressions after about 100 hrs or so -- both of how they sound after 100 hrs and how they sounded during the burn-in process.
cheers, Derek
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Hello,
Have built Bottlehead designed kits for over 15+ years and haven’t posted for awhile, but now I felt I should chime in on the V-cap “ODAM†caps. I installed the ODAM 18uF about about a month and a half ago in my Mainline I have a little over 200 hours on them.
It’s reassuring that as Derek and the rest of you describe your experience with the ODAM caps, it was not my imagination.
The caps are showing it’s real colors now, everything is detailed, fast, open and above all smooth. For along time in the cap burn in my “reference†speed ball Crack was sounding pretty nice. After about 150 hours on the ODAMs in the Mainline started pulling away in every aspect and never looked back.
Paired with my fully modified HD800 I can’t ask for anything more, for the first time the highs are very refined fast very open and clean. Credits should go to the Mainline design here. Well recorded bells,shakers even tambourines are for the first time very realistic.
The low end now are all there it goes deep with weight and detail. The low end was the last thing to show itself in the ODAM run in.
Best, island kid
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Hey everyone, just found this thread after Derek was kind enough to post on my thread about the ODAM in the mainline. I had originally ordered the 10uf but Chris V asked me to find out the impedance of the OT. Paul told me it was 4K. Chris said at 4K a 10uf cap will start rolling off at 40HZ and if it was his amp he wouldn’t put in anything smaller then 18uf as that would begin rolling off at 22hz. 18uf is a lot of material in the signal path and I’m concerned about the affect on the high frequencies but with my Vérité I certainly don’t want them rolling off at 40hz. As a good paranoid audiophile I now have both coming and must decide which one to keep without trying them because once they’re Soldered in I can’t return them. I am currently using the 15uf Audyn reference caps and they are a huge upgrade over the Dayton’s but the soundstage is not great and they are not as transparent as I would like.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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I went out into the workshop today and hooked my Mainline up to the audio analyzer, got it set with a 300 ohm load on the high impedance taps. Going from the 10uF coupling cap to a 40uF coupling capincreased the LF rolloff ever so slightly compared to the 10uF. I would not at all be surprised if these results changed with a different loading impedance.
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Thank you Paul, looks like those calculations of a 40 Hz rolloff may have been incorrect. I think I’m gonna go with the 10 UF ODAM because I see no reason to add more material in the single path if there’s no upgrade in sound quality.
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I have read comments on this and other forums about the great results using the .1 CUTF as a Bypass. I have been reading a lot about bypassing coupling capacitors and the science seems to be that it causes smearing and ringing. The people actually listening seem to be very impressed when the right combination of caps are used. I am currently using the Duelund silver foil .01 bypass caps in combination with the 15uf Audyn reference caps in my Mainline. When I initially installed them I thought I heard some smearing on certain recordings. After 30 or 40 hours of burn in I can’t seem to hear that anymore. Maybe my mind has become accustomed to it but the signal now seems very clean. Part of my confusion is, based on these Values the bypass cap should only have about 1/1500 affect on the sound. Since the change seems to be fairly substantial there must be something else going on or my math is wildly incorrect 😜
I guess I’m trying to establish if there’s any benefit in going to a .1 CUTF over a .01 Duelund as a bypass or use no bypass at all. Both PB and Doc have told me directly that they have found no benefit in bypassing coupling caps.
When the ODAM is burned in I will swap in and out the Duelund and report back what I hear. I Just hope my crazy audiophile mind can keep from ordering the CUTF until I find out if there’s any benefit whatsoever.
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Chris is giving you an educated guess based upon standard formulae. Arbitrarily saying the transformer impedance is 4K is not going to be that useful. As PB notes the impedance will vary with the load. 32 ohm cans present a different load than 300 ohms cans, etc. And so you really need to take response measurements with the different caps installed and a specific headphone to determine whether a change in value is of any benefit. If the cap value is just right you can end up with a flat response curve with a relatively sharp knee at the bottom created by a resonance influenced by the cap value. If the cap value gets too big that resonance can shift down in frequency and becomes a hump that is way below the rolloff frequency. So the rolloff becomes higher and less sharp, with a valley below it and a hump below that. There are many factors involved and a practical approach is the only way to really see what is going on.
Regarding the benefit of any of these cap changes - it's all in the mind of the beholder. If it sounds better to you, it is better. If it doesn't, well, best you can say is you probably paid too much for what you got.
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Thank you for the info, I’m learning a lot. I understand the concept of how it sounds to me is what’s important but the problem I have is that I don’t own any analyzers and I can’t afford to try every different cap value to find the one that works best into a 300ohm load. I’m at the mercy of people with more knowledge and experience than I have to give me advice on the best direction to go.
I have lost my career to the Covid lockdowns and I am under Covid house arrest here in the bay area so all I really have to do is to sit around and think about cap values for my mainline amplifier... sad I know Lol
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You could buy another couple of pairs of the Dayton 10uF caps to try experimenting with different values without spending a ton of money.
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That’s a good idea, I’m also considering soldering in wires with alligator clips to test both the 10uf ODAM and the 18uf ODAM to see if I can identify a difference
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Regarding the benefit of any of these cap changes - it's all in the mind of the beholder. If it sounds better to you, it is better. If it doesn't, well, best you can say is you probably paid too much for what you got.
DocB, I'm glad you sell amazing sounding amps and not fancy magic caps ;)
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fancy magic caps
Well, that's the other side of the coin. I like to consider myself an empiricist: if it can be experienced via the senses then it should in principle be measurable by something other than the ear-brain. And to the best of my knowledge no one's been able to show measurable differences between, for example, one type of metalized polypro cap versus another. And yet some (like me) believe they hear differences. Is that the work of self-persuasion or want: I want it to sound better so it does? My honest answer: maybe. And it truly bugs me that I can't rule that out or in. At the same time I'm not convinced that "We've not measured a difference" means "There is no measurable difference". It's conceivable, and to my mind plausible, that the ear-brain can pick out subtleties and make more of them than their minuscule amplitude/duration/etc. might lead one to predict. Harmonic distortion strikes me as a potential example of this -- some claim to hear certain magnitudes of 2nd harmonic distortion as euphonic and third or higher order harmonics as harsh -- despite the fact that the harmonic distortion in each case is, say, -30dB, which if my math is correct (doubtful) means that the fundamental is 1000 times larger than the harmonic distortion in question.
I'm reminded of a couple of quotes, one from John Camille and another from PJ, where they report hearing differences between components and setups in circumstances that make no objectivist sense: http://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=11704.msg106298#msg106298 (http://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=11704.msg106298#msg106298)
And yet at the same time, and arguably hypocritically, I find laughable that some people spend $100s or even $1000s on blocks of wood, quartz pebbles, plastic disks and even more fantastic things that are claimed to affect sound at the "quantum level", or make electron flows "more linear", etc. and report hearing sonic improvements. But in moments of self-honesty, I have to admit to my chagrin that I can't find a principled distinction between my belief that different caps sound different and their beliefs.
It's a pickle. ;D
cheers, Derek
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I’ve done my fair share of cap rolling as you can read in my past threads and I'm a fan of Chris's V-Caps. There are eight of them in my primary system gear. :o Like Doc wrote, if it sounds better to the owner, that’s all that matters.
You have to admit that when you read the webpage for that cap, it a masterpiece of advertising to an audience.
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I don’t think there is any real debate that caps have substantial differences in sound. Although, what sounds best certainly differs from person to person.
An update on the coupling caps in my Mainline. All testing is done with ZMF Vérité closed and Focal Utopia. These headphones are not only detailed and revealing but they have a completely different tone giving me good insight in to what is going on with these caps.
In one of my previous posts I said I didn’t think I had heard much difference in bass when moving from the Dayton 10uf to the Audyn Tri-Reference 15uf. Last night I swapped the Daytons and the Audyns in and out multiple times. Not so easy since the Audyn is huge and weighs 1lb each. The results just goes to show the fallibility of my audio memory. The difference was dramatic, especially below 30hz. The Audyn caps are probably 2-4db louder and far more detailed in the sub bass. After going back and forth in this and other threads regarding cap size, I am not attributing this to the move from 10UF to 15UF but more to the quality of the cap. These Audyn caps are just as described in the Humble HiFi review. They are very balanced with great bass extension and an incredibly realistic mid range. So much so there are times that male vocals can be shockingly realistic. That said, overall I find them to be a little too dull for my tastes.
The next thing I did was swap in and out the Duelund .01 silver foil with the Audyns installed. Although I initially liked these in the circuit as bypass caps, after swapping them in and out it was very clear that they were softening or blurring the top end. For me that answers the question as to whether to bypass my new ODAM capacitors with the CUTF .1.
I installed the V-cap ODAM 10uf this morning. I feel it’s rather pointless to give initial impressions as they will substantially change over the next 200 hours but I will say that I have burned in hundreds of caps over the last 35 years and these are very different than most. They are reminding me of the first time my jaw dropped hearing the V-cap tftf in 2004. That day in 2004 fundamentally changed what I thought a capacitor could do in an audio circuit.
I have also installed the V-cap .1uf tftf on the center board replacing the small Dayton’s. I don’t know if this will have much influence on the sound but I do know they will have more influence than sitting in my junk drawer 😁
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You have to admit that when you read the webpage for that cap, it a masterpiece of advertising to an audience.
Yeah, the ad-copy for all his caps makes me cringe. It almost scared me off from my first purchase of CuTF caps. It still almost does.
I don’t think there is any real debate that caps have substantial differences in sound.
Oh, there very much is. I could point you to one other forum in particular where the question "What is the best sounding cap" is sure to set off a repeat performance of a well-rehearsed name-calling match between certain "objectivists" and certain other "subjectivists".
The difference was dramatic, especially below 30hz. The Audyn caps are probably 2-4db louder and far more detailed in the sub bass. After going back and forth in this and other threads regarding cap size, I am not attributing this to the move from 10UF to 15UF but more to the quality of the cap.
I have to wonder whether some part of that is in fact a result of the change in capacitance. The 10 uF @ 30 Hz has a reactance of about 530 ohms. Going to 15 uF drops the reactance to about 350 ohms. But it would be tricky to estimate the magnitude of the effect (at least for me), without knowing a whole bunch of stuff about the OPT and how it behaves with the particular load you have on it. PJ could probably estimate the effect with a few scribbles on the back of napkin.
cheers, Derek
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Oh, there very much is. I could point you to one other forum in particular where the question "What is the best sounding cap" is sure to set off a repeat performance of a well-rehearsed named-calling match between certain "objectivists" and certain other "subjectivists".
I don’t take those people seriously. They are the same as burn in flat earthers. It is probably true that they may not hear differences but that does not give them the right to tell other people that those differences don’t exist. I’m 53 years old and just because I can’t hear 18khz doesn’t mean 18khz doesn’t exist, it simply means my hearing is not good enough to hear it.
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I have to wonder whether some part of that is in fact a result of the change in capacitance. The 10 uF @ 30 Hz has a reactance of about 530 ohms. Going to 15 uF drops the reactance to about 350 ohms. But it would be tricky to estimate the magnitude of the effect (at least for me), without knowing a whole bunch of stuff about the OPT and how it behaves with the particular load you have on it. PJ could probably estimate the effect with a few scribbles on the back of napkin.
cheers, Derek
This is what I was trying to figure out with my posts about the 10uf versus the 18uf . I appreciate your responses as not many people seem to want to engage about this.
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I have some time on these ODAM caps and wow... just wow. The people that know me on the other forums, especially the vérité and Utopia threads on Headfi know that I am about as far from a fanboy as you can get but these caps are something special. Derek, thank you for starting this thread. If not for that I don’t know if I would have found these capacitors.
Instead of reviewing them I figured I would post a copy of the email I sent Chris at V-cap this morning:
Hi Chris,
I am at 75 hours burn in on these 10uf ODAM. I wanted to tell you that you you have built something really special here. I was using the very well regarded Audyn tri-reference cap in my Mainline and your caps are destroying them in every sonic category. In 40 years in high end audio I can count on one hand the amount of times that I have been truly blown away by an electronic component upgrade. The ODAM has taken the Bottlehead Mainline from a great amplifier to a world class amplifier. This capacitor’s ability to pass a detailed and transparent signal while maintaining warmth and liquidity is not something I have experienced before. I know a lot of people read the accolades on your website and roll their eyes but I have found every one of those comments about the ODAM to be remarkably accurate.
Thank you for your great work.
From the desk of Captain Arlan R. Stagg
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Cool. If you're willing, please share your impressions after about 100 hrs or so -- both of how they sound after 100 hrs and how they sounded during the burn-in process.
cheers, Derek
Hi Derek,
I think I should have hit the 100 hour mark. Unfortunately, it's hard for me to say if there are any further improvements as I am unable to do a A/B comparision. My impression is that it is still very good. The resolution is so fine that the instruments sound very real and natural. I am still enjoying them very much. :)
One thing to note... For a good recording, it really shines. For a bad recording, it stands out clearly as bad.
I think these V-Caps will stay with me for a long time. So far, I don't have the feeling that something is amiss, and I am worried that trying new caps won't be improving, but a step back.
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[quote author]
[Q. How do you solder in the ODAM plus a bypass cap? I'm planning that on output of Lyngdorf1120.. .47 ODAM, .01 Cu bypass. Piggy back with lower value below? Side by side with same length leads or with a shorter lead on the smaller cap? Leads of both caps through same holes or lead soldered to lead then to hole? Or diff? OR.. it doesn't make any diff? Thanks.