Bottlehead Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Clover on August 04, 2021, 01:02:17 PM
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My wife and I helped my parents downsize recently and I picked up their old record collection in the process. I also picked up and old Technic's turntable with an automatic linear tonearm. I put a new belt on the turntable and tried to get it going again, but it still seems to skip a ton. I hardly know anything about turntables, so I don't even really know what is wrong or where to start. My dad figured it has not run in at least two decades. I love to build things to understand them, so I thought I might try to build a turntable to figure it all out.
I came across a small startup that just designed a DIY kit that you 3D print and assemble yourself. The kit has some brass bearings, and aluminum frame, an Auto Technica AT3600L cartage, and the wiring and what not. You 3D print the rest. I recently built myself a 3D printer and have been looking for more projects for it, so it seems like a good match for me. However, I don't know what I don't know. Kind of an ignorant fool over here and maybe 3D printing stuff for a turntable is just not the way to go about it. Figured this community would know a thing or two about building turntables. The startup is named Frame Theory 3D and they are just doing pre-orders now, so maybe I should just cool my jets for a bit.
Is a 3D printed DIY turntable something that I should just skip in favor of buying something new?
Are there other relatively cheap DIY kits out there that you would recommend?
Should I learn how to work/restore my current turntable before I even consider building one or would building one be a great way to learn?
Thanks for the advice.
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I am sure there are others who know far more than I do about turn tables, but my understanding is that you want high mass and low self-resonance for both the table and the platter. I don’t know where 3D printed materials fall in terms of mass and tendency to resonate. Sounds like it could be a fun project, but I don’t know about the suitability of the construction material.
Edit: do you have any links? I’m curious to learn more!
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I don't seem to be able to post external links, but their website does not have a ton of info to be honest with you. The Kickstarter page had more details, but I saw a piece on youtube with the two founders who are recent graduates in the UK where they explained the concept and showed off various iterations as they improved different elements. 3D printing sure seems to make prototyping much quicker and easier which is really cool to see in practice.
The plastics that most home 3D printers uses probably is not great for mass or resonance. There are a handfull of different materials you can use with different characteristics, but still plastics. However, I guess you could fill pieces with sand or something else while you printed them or change the density of the part.
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I'm no expert either but there does seem to be the other design philosophy which goes for low mass for the plinth.
I believe it has something to do with energy dissipation.
Rega are a manufacturer (though there are others) that goes with the low mass philosophy and produces some very highly regarded turntables.
In terms of the 3d printing it did occur to me that any inconsistency in the layering of material (assuming they are less than perfect resulting in variable density) may actually help dissopate resonance.
That's just a thought and I could be talking rubbish so stand to be corrected by others with a clearer understanding of physics.
Tonearm is usually low mass, high rigidity.
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There is a 3d printed turntable on Kickstarter called Songbird
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/frametheory/songbird-the-3d-printable-turntable-kit (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/frametheory/songbird-the-3d-printable-turntable-kit)
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Yeah, that is the one I originally came across. I think they are now providing a carbon tonearm in the kit. It is around a couple hundred bucks for the preorder.
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I say go for it and experiment since you already have the printer. You might as well have some fun with it and it really does not matter if you end up with a world class turntable or eventually buy a mass produced table. As long as you have fun along the way it will be worth it. There are all kinds of philosophies for TT construction. Some go for mass, some suspend components with springs or rubber, and others (like Rega) believe that light weight and stiffness are the best solution. And I believe VPI has a 3D printed tonearm which they say allowed them to control resonances better. It all boils down to the goal of controlling and eliminating vibrational energy. Just remember if there was a perfect solution there would only be one TT made. Everything is a compromise. To gain in one area you almost always have to give up a little in another area.
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Interesting.
Looks a cool project if you already have a 3d printer at £150 ($200) for the kit.
I enjoy making stuff and I've seen (not purchased) more expensive lego sets so I would be tempted just for the build process if I had a 3d printer.
Pre-built is £250 but there is stiff competition at that price so if buying for sound quality it's a bit of an unknown.
To the OP's original question, and echoing other comments, it seems they have considered the main design concepts of the turntable and it would certainly be a good learning experience.
You already have a 3D printer so may be worth considering just for the build. If it results in a good sounding turntable that will be a bonus
This is in contrast to Bottlehead which (for me) was found online through the rave reviews about the sound quality of the Crack when looking for a headphone amp. The fact that it was DIY was the bonus.
If you are more interested in having a good sounding turntable then buying one might be the prudent route, but where's the fun in that?
As for the technics TT you have, sounds like it is a linear tonearm. This is a more complex arrangement which works differently from most turntables where the arm pivots so it moves in an arc across the record.
The self-build in which you are interested is this latter type so may provide a more useful learning experience.
If I had a 3d printer I would likely have an order in already!
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Any updates on a 3D printed turntable?
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My wife bought me a kit from Frame Theory for Christmas so I'll report back once complete. I am going to order some special filament for aesthetics but am looking forward to the build in a week or two. Always a little warry of Kickstarter type deals but my wife said they shipped out our quickly and looks like a well packaged kit on first glace. My wife said they had a black Friday sale for around $150, so it should at least be a pretty affordable lesson for me. I still know next to nothing about turntables but figure the best way for me to learn is to build it one.
For anyone interested, I think I am going to print it out in PETG. I watched an interview with the designers again and it looks like that is what they have used. PETG seems to be a go to for production type projects and has been working well for me lately. I'm not sure it will impact the sound, but I may just end up printing a copy from PLA as well. Probably only cost me a few bucks in materials so I may as well play around a bit. I think I am going to try to go with contrasting colors. Some of their pictures look awesome but I don't really want to copy. I may go with a bronze and dark blue or purple, not sure yet.
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I am interested in how this turns out. May buy the kit when they are back in stock.
I looked at the STL files and there is nothing that is particularly difficult to print.
Have fun with it
Debra
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I was hoping we’d hear more from you about this. I’m curious to learn how things turn out!
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I purchased some Carbon fiber impregnated PETG. I will try to print out some of the parts when I get the filament
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That is cool, I just watched a video with some of that and it seems great. Please let us know how you like it.
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Even though the kit is out of stock, I decided to try and print the parts.
The picture is of the first part I printed, made with Atomic Carbon Fiber Extreme Black PETG PRO
20% infill. 0.2 layer height and supports to build plate. It turned out well and am printing more parts. Hopefully the kit will come back in stock soon. Don't expect much from this but it will be fun to see how it turns out
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That Atomic CF filament sounds like great stuff. Please keep us informed!
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Way to make me jealous, now I want to order some of that filament and try it for the build. The Prusament PETG filament that I did order got held up on getting shipped due to the holiday and people being out, so I won't get it until Wednesday. Where did you order your filament from? I may just print off two copies with different filaments and try them out to see if I can hear a difference.
I think that filament could be cool for my car build as well. I can think of three ugly aluminum brackets I poorly made for my build that could be improved on if I ever get a hang of Fusion 360. They don't really need to be that strong but heat may be an issue for two. I am probably just trying to cheat my way into saying I made a couple custom carbon fiber parts for my build.
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I'm the one who is jealous, you have the kit! I hope they get it back in stock soon.
The filament is from Atomic Filament
https://atomicfilament.com/collections/petg-3d-printer-filament-us-made-with-free-shipping/products/carbon-fiber-black-petg-pro
It is fairly easy to print with. I print it at 260 and bed at 85
Have fun with the Turntable kit
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Got everything printed off last week and put it together this weekend. Pretty easy build outside of one step that takes magical powers. Not sure how they expect anyone to accomplish the step which requires putting two tiny brass cups on the ends of a little spiked rod that pivots the arm. You in theory put them on without them falling off while you piece two other 3D printed parts together around it. No brass in mine and it still seems to move freely. My clumbsy hands dropped one on the carpet, never to be seen again. Still tried to put one side in but seems impossible for two human hands to me. Everything else was simple and it probably took me 3 hours total to piece together after the 3D printing.
I still need to do the calibration and dial it in, but that will come next weekend.
As far as the 3D printing goes, everything seemed to print well on my Prusa MK3s+ that I built last year. I used Prusament PETG in Ocean Blue and Gold. They recommend printing at .3mm layer height. I never normally print that big and just did .15mm layer height for everything. I also did not find that I needed to use a brim for everything like the recommend in the instruction. I'm not really sure how long it took for print time but I spread it out over about four days. I would guess around 15 hours of print time.
I'll report back next weekend after I calibrate it and add it into my living room system. It will just be going to a Denon AV receiver for now, however, I might have some more projects coming there soon
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Nice. I hope it comes back in stock soon. I have printed the parts, and as you said nothing very difficult to print
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That’s pretty cool looking, quite the minimalist design!
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The kit is back in stock, so I ordered one. I have all the parts printed already. Not expecting much, but it should be fun
Deb
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Finished the 3d-Printed turntable. I used red and black carbon fiber PETG.
Works well and doesn't sound bad. Better than I expected!
Don't know if a higher quality cartridge would improve it much.
All in all, it was a fun project
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That is pretty darned cool.
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Pretty cool design. Thanks for sharing your work, Deb!
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It's a cute design exercise but I can't see it meeting the basic criteria of rigidity and very low resonance. A better platter might help, as long as you can get it centred properly. 3 bubble levels? which one do you use?
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I would think you use all three. I wouldn't worry about the usefulness of the turntable and let the builder worry about that.
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You use all three by adjusting the three feet. There is an aluminum part of the frame that gives some rigidity. I didn't expect much from it and it was mostly a fun exercise. It does work and sound better than I thought it would. However, I have no intention of using it as my main turntable. It was more a curiosity and a fun project.