Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Crack => Topic started by: jrihs on April 06, 2011, 12:49:44 PM
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OK, I know nothing about Caps and am not getting what I need from other threads so far. Just more confused....But I am learning bunches! OK Sooo....From reading another post I get the impression that, for the output caps, 100uf/250VDC is fine, but what are you giving up, if thats the right word, with something less than a 650 VDC rating? In other words, would I pick a 100uf/350VDC over a 100uf/250VDC? or try and save a buck (well 5x2 bucks actually)?
My goal is to find something a little nicer than the Solens...without paying hundreds.
There are the obligato 100uf/400VDC which I have heard great reviews on and Mundorfs as well in this range. Has anyone tryed the Obligatos in the Crack (sounds painful). Mundorfs?
Then I saw these on a famous canadian parts purvayor...MUNDORF-72480, 100uf / 550VDC, M-TubeCap, 50*80 9 ESR (mOhm). Funky connections but when I saw them I thought they might look really cool sticking up through the top of the plate on either side of the cooling slots. Would this cap work?
So far I have:
1) 18 gauge teflon continuous cast copper for the power path.
2) 22.5 gauge silver gold/teflon for the signal path.
3) teflon sockets
4) Silver RCA/s
5) various resistor upgrades-Mills, etc.
and,
A speedball and Goldpoint attenuator on the way.
This is probably going to sound a litte forward and edgy, is my guess...I'll find out this week after I replace the LED I shorted during my Voltage check. Obviously, the caps need to be synergistic/complimentary with these upgrades and should be the finishing touch...did someone say three more film caps in the power path? Five pin XLR plug?
PS...For me its allot about holographic imagery/soundstage/air around the instruments as well as detail and clarity. bass is fine if its accurate. Tubes available now are WE 5998 equivelants and a 50's bugle boy or seimens chrome plate (fav.) 12au7, or a bunch of others including e80cc's...what fun!
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Let's see...
The value, in microfarads, is going to determine the lowest frequency the amp will produce without attenuating (rolling off) some bass notes. The stock cap values are always good. I have tried one half the capacitance and it didn't have a noticeable affect on the bass.
The voltage rating allows it to work without exploding. I can't tell you what voltage rating is OK. Doc or PJ can. Going over the rating wastes money and makes the cap much bigger.
Obbligato are great "Bang For The Buck" caps. I have used them often. I did replace the Obbligatos I was using for the output cap in my FP 2 with a Mundorf Supreme (high bucks for me but the low end of Mundorf) and it was an improvement. The Mundorf had greater clarity, nicer high frequencies but not as intimate in the midrange. Head spinning yet?
Let's jump back. Here is a problem. Each cap sounds a bit different. One might bring the voices forward and portray them in a very lifelike manner. One might give sheen to the high frequencies, another might have tight and extended bass response. Each shines a light on some aspect of musical reproduction. No one can tell you what you will like. Sadly it would take unlimited cash to try them all for yourself.
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As a rule, you are not gaining anything by arbitrarily using a higher voltage cap then you need. to get it to stand up to a higher voltage some compromise may need to be made. High voltage caps tend to be larger with thicker film so they don't arc and die. the larger size leads to more inductance and other stuff your not looking for.
I don't have a Crack, other than original equipment but I have used the Obbligatos and like them...John
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Does more capacitance mean lower bass notes? I've always wondered how exactly those values are chosen, as it seems there'd be a point where the higher value would be bad for the sound.
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Yes, but doubling the value will not mean a large audible difference. The low frequency point is pretty low as it is. Not that many headphones will respond down to the amp's stock roll off as it is, some yes, many, no.
The real improvement will be in the quality of the sound, after the Speedball, is when replacing the electrolytic output capacitor.
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GREAT input guys!! Thanks mucho.
Say, can you replace a 100uf with 2-50uf's?...not that I would...?
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Yes, in parallel capacitors add.
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If two caps of the same value are setup in series, I know it halves the capacitance, but does it double the max voltage eg.: 100uF 500V + 100uF 500V in series = 50uF 1000V? ...I think that was the case although I have never used it in application.
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Yes, like in some Bottlehead power supplies, two caps of the same value in series cuts the value in half and doubles the voltage rating. Bottlehead does it right by putting high (resistance) value resistors in parallel to equalize the voltage across the two capacitors and act as a bleeder so you can work on them faster.
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So would a nicer 100uF cap bypassed with a smaller cap, like about 8-10uF, make any difference? Or would the bypass value be insignificant compared to the larger cap?
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First, Yes!
"Conventional Wisdom" says that you shouldn't bypass an audio path cap.
I do it quite often and like the results, YMMV. The whole idea behind audio signal cap bypassing is to impart a percentage of the higher dollar cap to a larger, not as sophisticated cap. Such as, I have used 2.2uF 630V Obbligato (cheap black PP Film in Oil) caps for output in my Seduction. Those were bypassed with 0.1uF 200V KK Teflon caps (Teflon broken in as is my custom). Who could afford a 2.2uF Teflon cap?
There was a distinct improvement in the high frequencies, smoothness and extension, with the Teflon bypass. The midrange seems a little more natural as well. I heard no effect on the bass.
I'm not the first to think of this. Ack! dAck! offers (offered) a "Teflon option" which is a 0.1uF 200V Teflon bypassing the stock 2.2uF 200V Auricap on the output.
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Hmm, interesting. Is there a magic ratio between the body value and the bypass value? I was looking at a 100uF Solen and maybe some value of a Mundorf Supreme or ESA Clarity Cap between .47-2 uF.
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Two short notes:
1) putting caps in series requires the dividing resistors; otherwise one cap will inevitably hog the voltage until it blows out. However, that means the combination will have leakage current. You can't do this with an output cap such as the 100uF in Crack - you'll get DC current through your headphones.
2) The technical problem with bypassing caps is the possible resonance between the small cap and the parasitic inductance of the large one. If that resonance is damped by the parasitic resistance, you are OK - unfortunately those values are hardly ever specified. If the resonance is well above audible frequencies, you may also be OK - it's been argued both ways. Usually a small resistance (0.1 ohm to 1.0 ohm) in series with the larger cap, with the small cap bypassing the combination, will damp the resonance pretty thoroughly. At least in theory it will... :^)
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Hmmm, interesting. I may have to run some tests. I've got a couple ClarityCaps in my SEX right now, I could play around with those and come to my own conclusions.
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1) putting caps in series requires the dividing resistors; otherwise one cap will inevitably hog the voltage until it blows out. However, that means the combination will have leakage current. You can't do this with an output cap such as the 100uF in Crack - you'll get DC current through your headphones.
Very informative post Paul. Is there a place online that describes how to calculate the dividing resistors? I assume that even with them in place, it effectively changes the circuit so it really shouldn't be used for modifying an existing circuit unless you really know what you're doing.
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... Is there a place online that describes how to calculate the dividing resistors?...
The trick is to have the resistors enough smaller than the leakage resistance, so that variations in the leakage don't affect the voltage division very much.
You can look up the maximum leakage current in the capacitor specifications, which depends on the voltage applied, and calculate the leakage resistance.
The amount by which the equalizing resistor should swamp out the leakage depends on the excess voltage rating available. Not that the capacitors won't have exactly the same capacitance, which will dominate the voltage split when the voltage is first applied, the resistances only come into play after that initial transient.
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Here is an interesting cap review article: http://www.ecp.cc/cap-notes.html. Unfortunately ERSE caps are not compared which is unfortunate, they actually make values of interest and at least one person says they are the best they have heard...compared to what I don't know. I post this for the benefit of other beginners, but it would be interesting to hear what the more old hands think of these observations/opinions.
Cheers
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Here is a review that includes the Erse PulseX http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html He calls it a good budget cap. If I recall it holds up against others in it's class.
Here is some more reading too http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54218.0
Enjoy!
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Perfect! I was wondering where I had seen that review before! Thanks.
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Reviving this one for some input on maybe bypassing the last PS cap. Seems like a 2.2uf bypass cap is very common. Im assuming because it's 1/100th? I have a bunch of film caps from old projects but no 2.2uf. I have some 4.7uf and 1.5uf and 1uf as well as a bunch of low value caps (.1, .47, .022, .01 etc). Any reason why I couldnt use a 1.5uf or a 4.7 for example rather than a 2.2uf? I ask because I know there is alot of debate about this and possible resonance issues etc. etc. But in terms of the value itself, is there any more potential issues by not sticking with the 1/100th or 1/10th that seems to be so popular?
Thanks
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Well, I have a slightly different version of this question. I'm having a fair bit of trouble finding a place that has 100uF caps in stock. Heck, not that many different kinds of "audio" 100uF caps seem to exist at all. Here's what I've been able to find so far:
Mundorf M-Cap MKP 100uF-250V
Mundorf M-TubeCap 100uF-550V
Obligatto Film Axial 100uF-400V
Axon True Cap 91uF-250V
Solen PB-MKP-FC Metalized Polypro 100uF-400V
Solen Fastcap PPE 100uF-630V
Given that the rating is supposed to be around 200V and I've seen a couple of comments on this board about higher voltage ratings potentially sounding worse, that really leaves me with the Mundorf MCap MKP and the Axon True Cap. Are either of these any good? Given that the Axon (which at least one member has used) is only a 91uF, should I use a 10uF cap (which are MUCH more available) in parallel to it?
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Hmm, interesting. Is there a magic ratio between the body value and the bypass value? I was looking at a 100uF Solen and maybe some value of a Mundorf Supreme or ESA Clarity Cap between .47-2 uF.
I have heard the general rule is 1/10th for the bypass cap. My understanding is that this can be reduced if the cap has a lower tolerance: if it is a 10% tolerance, then the 1/10th rule would apply but if it is a 2% tolerance then a much smaller bypass cap could be used, say 1/50th or some such figure. Morgan Jones in "Valve Amplifiers" uses the figure 1/100th for modern, high quality caps. I have also heard the ESR can be lowered by using parallel caps (two 50 uF caps in parallel would have a lower ESR than an equivalent 100 uF cap). Morgan Jones also recommends "starring" the bypass points.
Just a thought or two about bypassing.
John
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Has anyone experience of bypassing the 100uf output capacitors with a much smaller .1uf or .01uf capacitor?
I was considering going with a 1/100 1uf bypass but I don't think I have the room in the case for the type I want, a high quality AmpOhm Polyester Film. I could fit a lower quality 1uf bypass and bypass that with an even small high quality .01uf or I could just use a single high quality .1uf bypass.
Any opinions on which would be the better option? My output caps are already polyprops.
Cheers
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Axon True Cap 91uF-250V
This is what I used in my build. I can't compare to any of the more exotic/expensive options, but *definitely* better than the stock electrolytic caps - and they are dirt cheap to boot.
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Any of these will be an improvement over an electrolytic IMO, with a couple of exotic exceptions. The actual voltage is much closer to 100v than 250, but the difference in dissipation factor between a low voltage electrolytic and a higher rated film cap is pretty much always goinng to go to the film cap. That said, I don't know that I'd use the m-tube caps as these are really meant to be power supply caps and they may or may not sound as good as the others.
You should also be able to get the axon in 100 uF 250v from Michael percy audio, and at least one other person here used the erse caps.
That said, even the 91 uf should be just fine -- the value herre is not super critical so a bit more or a bit less won't make muc of a difference.
As for bypasses, you'd really just have to expreriment and any of the values mentioned should work fine.
Even a good film or teflon film cap may also be used in combination with the stock electrolytic and should also show some benefit.
If I were doing this, I'd try an axon, erse pulsecap, th mundoorf MKP, solen or obligato -- in no particular order and thenbypass wiith a .1 uF sonicap platinum teflon, or even maybe a .01.
I plan to use a pair of now unobtanium blackgate 150 uF 350v and may bypass them with either a sonicap platinum or a vishay ERO -- if I can hear a difference.
Again, in this application, these values (except for the minium voltage rating) are all that critical -- so 901 uF, 150 uF, no biggie.
Of course there are other cap and bypass choices, but these are what I have experience with and or prefer over some of the others.
Good luuck,
Jim
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What about bypassing the stock electrolytic output caps with a largish film cap? Maybe 10 or 20uf or even a bit higher value. I would think that would have a larger influence on sonics than a small bypass and wouldnt cost as much, if staying within the same cap brand/range as a full out film replacement. Im kinda skeptical that a high quality, small value (.1uf or lower) bypass cap is going to have much influence bypassing a 100uf electrolytic. I do have some Audiocap Thetas I could try but I believe that they are .01uf . And some larger value Dayton Film and Foils (all under 1uf, .33 may be the highest value I have).
I dont quite understand the potential resonance issues, would larger film bypass caps exacerbate them more than small value bypass caps? What does is "sound" like?
Also, Jim ... I see that you're considering the Black Gate electrolytics, what about the Jensen Electrolytics? In 100uf or even 220uf, they are a more compact alternative to the large value film caps and less expensive than all but the cheapest film caps. I have used Jensen oilers (1uf) as output caps in a CDP and also to cap a "helper" tweeter in loudspeaker but that is my only Jensen cap experience, no experience with their electrolytics. Im not that big on Solens and not so sure that the Axons are all that much different. I have used both in speaker crossovers in the past, as well as Dayton PP's so i should say that I never really liked them much for tweeter applications but I think some are still in service on drivers other than tweeters. Also used them non-critically in car speaker crossovers.
A Dayton film and foil bypassed with an Audiocap Theta did work out well in a phono stage I built a decade or so ago but that was all small value, under 1uf total and again, not a standard Dayton PP.
This is more food for thought for me for a later date but I know this much, I cant put a load of money into trying different large value film caps. If a cap "upgrade" is going to be subtle, especially with the music I listen to, it just becomes a diminishing return thing for me right off the bat. I would probably do Speedball first regardless, since most say this is the biggest improvement.
A lot of questions, I know. Thoughts?
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From Parts Express:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=027-616
Solen 100uF/400V $34.55, now $41 each. Higher values are rated at 250V.
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Laudenum,
A small, high-quality film cap bypassing a large electrolytic is fairly common practice and is not so much meant for "flavoring" the electrolytic to the sound of the film cap, but more along the lines of lowering the dissipation factor and/or shunting the self-noise of the electrolytic. Go ahead and try the .01 -- certainly can't hurt, but if somehow it does, just take it out. There is another cap rolling thread on the Crack, and somewhere in there I was discussiing the possiblity of bypassing the stock electrolytics with a .1 or .01 vishay mkp-1837, but as PB pointed out, the working voltage of the vishay is too low for this application.
Elsewhere in this forum others have spoken of bypassing psu electrolytics with smaller, as well as larger film caps -- the smaller, again are more for shunting out self-noise and the larger ones are more for adding capacitance and or flavoring.
I don't know anything about using the jensen electrolytics as coupling caps, and as good as they are, they are not the same kind of chemistry as a black gate, and besides, I've had a pair of closely matched 150 uF 350v BG NH caps for a while and will put them to use in this amp.
There is a "rule" that says you should not bypass a black gate, but with certain types (NH, NX, and others), and in certain situations, this can be done to god effect.
I built a millet minimax headphone mp last year for my dad and used a couple of black gate N types as output coupling caps in much the same way as they are used in the Crack, and indeed, bypassing them with a .1 uF vishay mkp-1837 was a very nice improvement -- and the caps were either 470 uF or 1000 uF if I recall correctly.
With all that said, the stock electrolytics are supposedly quite good as they are, and bypassing them with a small, quality film cap may be all one needs to do.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to the kind of instrumentation (scope) that would let me see what happens exactly when bypasses are used and/or when a resonant situation happens, so I just have to trust my ears, and I've never had a situation where bypassing a big ps electrolytic with a small film cap did not make a positive difference. Sometimes the differences were fairly small, and in other situations, very, very good.
If you don't want to go for the sonicap platinums, then also look at the Gen IIs, as well as others with sufficient voltage ratings. Sonicaps, IMO, just happen to be quite nice, especially for the money. Unfortunately, most of the larger value caps, and all of the platinums are generally not suitable for BH gear as their voltage ratings are somewhat lower, but they do have the basic sonicaps up to at least 3.3 uF in 600v.
Hope this helps somewhat, but as I said, without any way of measuring or looking at what is going on, I'm basically just following the crowd and hearing what I hear.
HTH,
Jim
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It does help, thanks Jim. It cant hurt to try what I have on hand. I can just clip them in temporarily and see how it goes.
I dont understand all the tech that made the Black Gates different but I do know that they are different internally than Jensens and other electrolytics. I have some in use in one of the kits or rebuild I did years ago which means I have spares somewhere. But they werent the N series and Im sure they arent the right values/voltages. Probably the standards because I was always a budget type.
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Jumper leads and a pair of KK Teflons are what got me started on the capacitor bypassing trek.
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Yeah, I should probably pick up some of the affordable, smaller value russian teflons that show up on ebay all the time. That way I'll have them. Ive never used a teflon cap before. Forget the big brand name teflons, too expensive for me. But I suppose it would be worth trying some of those russian cheapies. What about polystyrene for bypass? I assume they arent a great choice since I havent read much about them. But I think I may have some from a couple lots I picked up really cheap on ebay years ago that I figured would work as guitar tone caps. I think that they were advertised as polystyrene anyway, if memory serves. They may just be mylars but they indeed make for pretty nice tone caps in guitars. I have 2 or 3 different lower values but not sure of voltage rating or particulars. I'll dig them out and see what they are exactly if the experts here think a polystyrene bypass is worth a listen.
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I may have a line on a couple of 150uf solens (used/upgraded). Would there be any reason to change the stock resistors at the headphone jack with lower value resistors? I know it was suggested by Paul B to do so if going to a 330uf cap. Just wondering if it would be considered necessary or a good idea if jumping to a 150uf and if so, what value would be suggested?
Thanks
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I finally dropped my Axon 91uF caps in last week - after spending quite a bit of time with the stock crack (except for a tkd pot), and then the speedball upgrade. I would say the Axon's improve on the stock output caps, but the improvement is pretty subtle. I would characterize the sound as being the tiniest bit more lush, and overall, a little smoother than before - but without any perceptible loss in detail. This makes me really curious what, if any, difference I would perceive if I had a chance to try out some obbligatos or mundorf mkp's.
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I have two of the Mundorf MKP 100uF 250V on the way. I havent been all that impessed by the usual suspects ... the lower cost MKP's in other applications in the past, both electronic and speaker crossover. I seriously considered the 91uF Axon regardless however as PC has them cheap. Also considered the 100uF Erse as they are also inexpensive relative to most other MKP types in large values. But I just didnt want to go down and already traveled road with the Axon or take a chance on the Erse. Just seemed like the Mundorf was generally viewed as just a small step above the usual suspects and aside from the Axon through PC or the Erse, they arent all that much more money than the others. I was hesistant to spend the money here because the amp sounds fantastic stock. Speedball was probably the best bet, money wise. But speedball is on the to do soon list.
Im not expecting a big difference with the Mundorf. Im hoping that they are a neutral sounding cap, with maybe a bit smoother upper mids and treble and a hair more detailed than the stock cap. I suspect that it will be fairly subtle. I have some Blackgate 150uF vk's in the parts bin, leftovers from old project. I was going to try those at the output and still may if the Mundorf is a loser. But jrebman gave me the idea of using these in parallel replacing the last PS cap. I probably will do so of it's not too much trouble.
I'll report on the Mundorf's in the not too distant future.
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I am a confessed capacitor junkie, not in a 12 step program yet. But the Speedball will bring you more in changes than tubes and capacitors. So it might be the first upgrade. Then...
After tubes and capacitor changes there are cables and speaker wires, tube sockets, resistors... the list goes on. It can become a neurosis or a joy.
But you will get an improvement over the stock caps. As you say expect better, clearer, cleaner highs and improved presence and detail in the midrange. It has been my experience that the better the cap the longer the break in period. So there will be some time you will want to go back to the stock caps, persevere!
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Laudanum - with respect to the order of your upgrades and ease of installation, you may want to consider putting your speedball in first. It is going to be harder to angle your iron and gain access the various necessary terminals for the speedball once your large film output caps are in place (unless you plan to simply remove and then reinstall them at the time). Per the advice I got from Beefy a while back (which worked well for me), it is probably easiest to put in fly leads and mounts for the output caps before installing the speedball, then do the speedball, then solder in and zip-tie down your new caps at the end.
Setting the above aside, I'll be eager to see your comments on your mundorfs whenever you get them isntalled! Are these the ones you ordered in 100uf/250 http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_mundorf_mkp.html ?
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Per the advice I got from Beefy a while back (which worked well for me), it is probably easiest to put in fly leads and mounts for the output caps before installing the speedball, then do the speedball, then solder in and zip-tie down your new caps at the end.
Yep, and I absolutely stand by that advice. My original build post on Head-Fi for reference: https://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/476650/crack-bottlehead-otl/435#post_7149721
I am a confessed capacitor junkie, not in a 12 step program yet. But the Speedball will bring you more in changes than tubes and capacitors. So it might be the first upgrade. Then...
After tubes and capacitor changes there are cables and speaker wires, tube sockets, resistors... the list goes on. It can become a neurosis or a joy.
Yep, I would agree that Speedball certainly made a bigger change than the output caps, but even the 'lowly' Axons were still a good improvement over the stock electrolytics.
Aside from those two upgrades, I would put a better pot on top of the list - well above the other upgrade options you mention. The TKD I used in my Crack is gorgeous compared to the Alps blue in another one of my amps. IMHO, YMMV, $0.02 and all that......
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Yep, I know that Speedball should be first but I never do things the easy or logical way anyway. I plan on purchasing Speedball soon. But I will probably install the Mundorfs first. I'll secure them with self adhesive tie wrap hold downs, atleast temporarily. And solder them in so they are easy to remove for Speedball. Im not very good at understanding circuits or schematics but Im pretty decent with a soldering iron so I have no worries regarding removing the film caps and desoldering and resoldering anything else that may make Speedball installation easier.
Ive been down the upgrade path several times before but Im not an extremist. I know that the caps can take a while to break in. Teflon sockets and expensive cables wont be in the future. Although I do probably need to make some different cables eventually. I used Star Quad as I had some already and it was the easiest to use for the source (mini plug to RCA's) but the capacitance is pretty high with the Quad. Although with the short runs, it probably isnt going to matter. But Mogami or Canare is good enough for me. I'll get around to the cables sometime down the road. Also, headphone cable upgrades wont happen either and neither will internal wiring upgrades, atleast not with boutique wire or cable anyway.
Speedball, the Alps Blue pot and the Caps and I'll have about the price of the stock Amp, or maybe a few bucks more, in upgrades when it's all said and done. Still a steal of a headphone amp at 400 bucks all told.
hopeful ... yep those are the caps. I wonder how much it costs Mundorf to have them things made? 5 bucks a pop maybe ??? ... You can get a glimpse of the retail mark-up just by seeing how much less PC charges for the Axons compared to some other sellers. I bet the Mundorfs dont cost any more than the Erse, Solen, Axon, Dayton etc. to make and if they do it's not much. But in the audio world, 45 bucks isnt all that much for a 100uf 250V film cap.
Good input, thanks guys.
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Arent the TKD pots conductive plastic? I may be a skeptic, but I just cant bring myself to spend gobs of money on a pot. In fact, I would loved to just use the included alpha pot but the tracking at low volumes is generally poor. I have several of those alpha pots and they are all over the place from sample to sample. The Alps blue velvet tracks very well throughout it's range and is smooth. I know that there are several popular pots that are supposed to be better and sound better, the TKD's being one of them often mentioned, but I just cant bring myself to spend much more than what the Alps cost. And again, I am skeptical that two different conductive plastic pots is going to sound much different. But then again, I havent spent the money to find out what I may be missing.
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PECs are nice pots for the money.
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The last blue Alps pot I saw was stepped. Upon opening it, it was a stepped resistor ladder. My Alps Black Beauty isn't. I don't know that a conductive film is a bad thing.
Edit: I think the blue Alps I looked at were Paully's pots, Alps volume and balance, that we put in a Foreplay.
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I may be a skeptic, but I just cant bring myself to spend gobs of money on a pot.
The entire input signal passes through the pot before it even touches any other active component in the amp. I cannot think of a more important place to spend money. And I can assure you that they track better and sound better than an Alps Blue.
Arent the TKD pots conductive plastic?
Yes. Is that a problem?
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Grainger, the Alps blue pots I have are conductive plastic.
Beefy, why would the conductive plastic pot be a problem for me, Im using one with the Alps blue?
I know the signal passes through the pot. It also passes through the wire from the RCA's to the pot and the wires after the pot, and passive components in the signal path and ... etc. etc. It can be an endless purging of the wallet. Some of us have to stop somewhere. As far as the pot goes, I DO NOT doubt that YOU can hear a difference in favor of the TKD. I remain skeptical that I would be able to hear a difference whether it's the fault of my non-golden ears or the source or the headphones/speakers or a combination of all of them. But whether I would be able to or not, it would to have to remain a case of ignorance is bliss for me, once again, because of that wallet thing even if I did have the burning desire to find out for myself. Im sorry, it's not a religion for me but I understand that it is for some others and I understand that it is defended with a passion for those in which it is akin to a religion. I dont begrudge anyone for that.
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Go easy guys, we're just talking about a volume knob here. To each his own.
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PECs are nice pots for the money.
I agree, they are at a good price point, value ratio for me. I think it was a nice upgrade over stock.
I still have to get my act together and install the Erse caps... Just to busy enjoying!
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Well, I went ahead and bit the bullet and ordered Speedball. I dont know how long the wait is but Im done with the hardest part ... spending the money :-)
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Hi
I have orderet some solen caps. But i was wondering how to mount them. I have seen some plastic mounts, with dubble sided tape and cable ties. But does the tape hold up, when the topplate gets hot?
I havent been able to find them any where for sale. So if you know where to buy, please link. Ebay is prefered.
Thanks :)
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Those mounts are called "sticky backs" in construction, not the generic name or the trade name. They were part of our installation specs but we required them to be screwed to the metal backplane. The glue lets go after a while. I have done a few scratch builds and I screw them down.
I still have some left over from construction so I don't know where to find them. I'll take a look.
Found one: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=080-515
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Thanks for the links
I didnt think of seaching for cable tie mounts :)
I found these on ebay http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300640982275
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Those are very handy. They can go under an existing screw and give a good place to thread a wire tie...John
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You can find zip tie mounts at your local hardware store. I bought mine at Lowes.
Zip tie Mount 10 pack $1.76 (http://www.lowes.com/pd_292684-1781-45-1MBNL_0__?productId=3128403&Ntt=zip+tie+mount&pl=1¤tURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dzip%2Btie%2Bmount&facetInfo=)
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Perfect timing guys, I think I'll go to Lowes for mine.
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Hi all. I just read the capacitor reviews here for the third time...http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html. A question comes to mind. Since the best we can get is probably the 100, 400v Mundorf that's rated only a 7.5... is ANY film cap an improvement over any electrolytic? I know this rating stuff is subjective, but can a great electrolytic actually be better than a mediocre film cap? I ask in part, because there are some sonic characteristics I like about my stock caps and don't want to lose, and because the film caps in the above link that are rated 10+ or 14 is what I want....not a mediocre cap, if I got to give up anything good for other...gains. I want it all....Discussion please!
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Hi all. I just read the capacitor reviews here for the third time...http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html. A question comes to mind. Since the best we can get is probably the 100, 400v Mundorf that's rated only a 7.5... is ANY film cap an improvement over any electrolytic? I know this rating stuff is subjective, but can a great electrolytic actually be better than a mediocre film cap? I ask in part, because there are some sonic characteristics I like about my stock caps and don't want to lose, and because the film caps in the above link that are rated 10+ or 14 is what I want....not a mediocre cap, if I got to give up anything good for other...gains. I want it all....Discussion please!
Hi
You have to take to consideration, that the the purpose for the caps in that test, is for speaker crossovers. Im not shure, but i dont think that they respond the same way when used as they are in the crack.
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Depends on how much money to want to spend. Reading some of the Crackheads impressions of the affordable film caps ... Solen, Axon, Mundorf etc. Most, if not all, felt they were a worthwhile improvement. Most seem to agree on a smoother treble, less "grain" in the upper mids and treble. Perhaps a tighter bass. You read about midrange "glare" from a lot of reviews for some of the affordable film caps in those crossover reviews. Nobody seems to report that in this application. I dont hear any at all with the Mundorf MKP's. By all means, spend as much money as you wish on film caps. Im sure there are sonic benefits based on indiviudal preference. But from what I have read, I would not completely rely on the reviews of the caps in speaker crossovers as an indicator of the same performance as an ouput cap in an amplifier.
I think that the Mundorf caps were well worth it and would do it again in a second. I got them during a 20% off sale too. But the stock electrolytics arent bad at all. Outside of the now gone Blackgates (NP's), I dont know of any electrolytics that any type of concensus would consider an upgrade over a film cap. There is Jensen and, I think Mundorf, that have some, supposedly, higher end electrolytics that could be worth trying. Dont know of anyone who has tried them in Crack. Since you are leary about improvements over the stock lytics, you could consider trying the Axon 91uf (Percy has them I think). Very reasonable in price and if you like them, then maybe consider trying "boutique" films. Seems like Axon, Solen and Mundorf MKP are all "safe" bets for improvement based on cost and feedback here on the forum.
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I talked with Jim about this a while back. He's a Black Gate fan. I think it was the non-polarized Black Gates that were most popular in this type of application. Tough to find any remaining and expensive. I have a couple 150uf BG's that I considered trying. But they are the polarized types that were used more in power supplies. So, I saved them for something else.
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Thanks again guys. I would love to here a review of the BG's in the crack!
till then I'll save up for the mundorfs 400v....or 250v....hmmm
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If you are talking about the Mundorf MKP's I went with 250V. A little smaller and little less money. If there are any sonic differences between the 2 voltages, I doubt my ears would hear them.
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Hi all. I just read the capacitor reviews here for the third time...http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html. A question comes to mind. Since the best we can get is probably the 100, 400v Mundorf that's rated only a 7.5... is ANY film cap an improvement over any electrolytic? I know this rating stuff is subjective, but can a great electrolytic actually be better than a mediocre film cap? I ask in part, because there are some sonic characteristics I like about my stock caps and don't want to lose, and because the film caps in the above link that are rated 10+ or 14 is what I want....not a mediocre cap, if I got to give up anything good for other...gains. I want it all....Discussion please!
Hi
You have to take to consideration, that the the purpose for the caps in that test, is for speaker crossovers. Im not shure, but i dont think that they respond the same way when used as they are in the crack.
Hi all - as far as electrolytics I have been happy with the Elna Silmic ll. Cheap and smooth. If you are going to spend some big bucks go for good film caps such as high grade Mundorf's (silver/oil, silver-gold/oil) but these will be limited to about 10uf and how much money you have in your bank account. I am using silver/oils in both speaker and electronics. Power supply caps you have to be careful about picking a cap that can handle the voltage. I have experimented with other "highly rated" caps from the above review (amp Ohm aluminum paper/oil, Jantzen Superior Z, Obbligatto Gold). All good in there own way. If I could do it over I would bite the bullet and buy the Mundorf silver/oils and not look back. I now have my speakers crossed over with 10uf Amp Ohm paper/oils and bypassed with the Mundorf 2.2uf silver/oils. Bypassing with the Mundorfs I did on a whim, and it made a LARGE difference (smooth, coherent, increased definition, decreased fatigue). I wonder what a 10uf would sound like.
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Let's get this out in the open. A review is one man's opinion. If there were perfect caps there wouldn't be any others on the market.
I have often said, written, that caps are like spicing. Some guys like jalapeno peppers some like ada vada.
So you end up taking some one else's taste with a grain of salt.
I have heard some high dollar caps in my amps that I didn't like and other Bottleheads did like them in the same circuit. It depends on what you listen to the most. Not every cap will give you extension on both ends of the music scale, increased presence in the midrange, improved images and soundstage. Matter of fact no cap has done that for me. You find what you like and go from there.
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Yes, I do take reviews with a grain of salt....er bourbon actually. but... 1) I do see some consistency in reviews (of the whole 2 i've seen), 2) they are interesting, 3) gotta start somewhere, and 4) I think they do a fair service at pinning down the really good from the really bad (or rather so so caps). What do you think about this guys observations (see proceeding link)? Do they at all jive with yours? Anyone else find significant deviations from his observations?
Thanks in advance...
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I understand what you are saying when you say "I have to start somewhere" because I was there not too long ago. I was reading reviews and speck sheets and just about everything else hoping to make a truly informed decision about the very best caps for "me", of course.
There is a lot of personal taste and a good bit of psychology that goes into what any person thinks is an awesome capacitor for their system. Myself included.
Find some reasonable priced (in your opinion) caps that you think you might like and go with them until you really know their sound (months and months). If you like them, do nothing. If you think a different cap will cure whatever you are hearing then try something else.
Premium caps are all pretty good, some will add a different color than others. All of them have their fans. Keep in mind that most of the great sound of these kits come from other aspects of the circuit. The well-designed power supply, the single-ended parafeed, etc.
Enjoy your time doing the research and when you are ready just pull the trigger on the ones you think you will like the best.
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Yes, I do take reviews with a grain of salt....er bourbon actually. but... 1) I do see some consistency in reviews (of the whole 2 i've seen), 2) they are interesting, 3) gotta start somewhere, and 4) I think they do a fair service at pinning down the really good from the really bad (or rather so so caps). What do you think about this guys observations (see proceeding link)? Do they at all jive with yours? Anyone else find significant deviations from his observations?
Thanks in advance...
Perfectly put jrihs! - These are ALL subjective opinions, and YMMV. I submit to the adage "everything makes a difference", whether that difference is positive or negative will vary. I definitely do not discount other reviewers opinions if I buy a product and do not agree with the reviewers assessment. If I didnt cross reference other reviews and experiences then its my bad. I just bought a Emotiva power amp and the reviewers opinions I have found are spot on. One happy camper. I actually optimistically expected more of an approximation.
Now, pure silver interconnects have been another animal. I have a stereo Crown amp that I use for my sub-woofer (class D pro amp not meant for audiophile grade home audio). When I swapped it into my main system to see how 500wpc would drive my maggies, the silver interconnects sounded "harsh" compared to silver coated copper - very noticable, and the first time I have experienced silver as being "harsh". When swapped back in with my much cleaner class T the preferred sound quality switched back to the pure silver. I would not be at all surprised if caps can have the same positive or negative effect.
Peace
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I applaud his efforts. He must have spent a thousand dollars, probably more buying all these caps. Looking at the review he uses two capacitors, one in the tweeter and one in the midrange crossovers. He doesn't draw any conclusions on bass response, they were not used there.
Using two caps, drawing a conclusion must be limited to the frequency ranges each is used in. He does mention that he used different tweeters on caps to see which matched best. That is a lot of work!
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I applaud his efforts. That is a lot of work!
Indeed he did put allot of work in it...
I have noticed similar comments and enthusiasm on this forum for relevant caps as he has. I find that encouraging...but like we all say, "...grain of salt, YMMV, whatever floats your boat, its subjective...etc."
Thanks for your assessment...spot on!
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In general a film cap will have a dissipation factor at least an order of magnitude, and often, many, lower than the best electrolytics, so at least in theory, they should be cleaner, clearer, or whatever you find happens with lower ESR caps.
As Desmond said, I have a couplepairs of blackgate NH seies non-polar caps that are 150 uF 350v, which I could, and probably will at least try as coupling caps in the crack. Not there yet though.
IMO you'll probably get more mileage of wrapping a piece of dynamat xtreme around the cap to help damp it.
Also what Desmond said about me and blackgates is not perfectly accurate -- in fact I fid most black gates to be over hyped, edgy, brittle and not worth the money -- with very few exceptions and in very few applications -- and the point is mostly moot as they are basically unobtainum these days. The big WKZ series power supply caps were superb, but even if you can find them these days, the prices will amaze you. FK and NH and N are really the only other BGs I've used but if a film cap that would have fit where I used them, I probably would have opted for that.
An all film cap power supply and film cathode bypasses on a SET amp is a thing of beauty, but the amp would have to be huge in order to accomodate the typical values/voltages we deal with.
I'm planning film PS bypasses in my stereomour, and cathode bypasses as well -- plus vcap copper teflon coupling caps (bought a used pair for super cheap) and a pair of 3.9 uF ampohm poly film/oil pf caps -- in case anybody wanted to know. If the copper vcaps turn out to be too much then Reality MRs will be subbed.
Anyway, go with the film caps, and where the silmics are nice as electrolytics go, they are not available in non-polar versions, so they can't be used as coupling caps in the Crack.
HTH,
Jim
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...
Anyway, go with the film caps, and where the silmics are nice as electrolytics go, they are not available in non-polar versions, so they can't be used as coupling caps in the Crack.
The output cap in Crack has about 100vDC across it, and there is no technical reason to avoid polarized caps.
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Paul,
Sorry, my bad -- for some reason I thought these had to be non-polar and that the caps supplied with the kit were NP.
Thanks for the correction.
-- Jim
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Sorry Jim. I should have said you were knowledgeable and/or had experience regarding the BG's, not necessarily a fan of them in general. I assumed that based on our discussion a while back and I shouldnt have generalized, as you were specific about the non-polarized BG's.
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Desmond,
No problemo. As I said, for the most part I think they are just overhyped and some of them actually seem to do more harm than good, depending of course on a zillion factors, so always best for people to try for themselves -- and if they like what they hear, so be it.
I used several in my Dad's Millet MiniMax and it sounds fine. Of course there is absolutely no room in there for anything but electrolytics -- that amp is a true 10 pounds of potatos in a 5 pound bag :-).
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Here is an electrolytic cap review to add to your collection if you dont have it.
http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html
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Thanks earwaxer. That was new to me.
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I was reading through the thread and saw some talk about bypassing the electrolitic caps with Russian Teflon caps, but no comments on what the results were. I'm hoping someone could provide feedback on their reasults.
I'm burning in some .22uF Russian Teflons, hoping to hear if there was an improvement. I also have the caps in .1uF as well and may the them a try as well.
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I saw these caps on ebay. Has anyone tried them. They are big, but think I can shoehorn them in.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-100UF-100-UF-RUN-OIL-CAPACITORS-CAPACITOR-370V-/380406832234?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D380394813619%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D6098618917369985004#ht_500wt_1156 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-100UF-100-UF-RUN-OIL-CAPACITORS-CAPACITOR-370V-/380406832234?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D380394813619%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D6098618917369985004#ht_500wt_1156)
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I have a pair of similar caps in the PDMPS of my FP 2. Smooth sound to them. Additional bass too. As mine isn't a Crack YMMV.
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I think that I will have to give them a try. I'm still burning in the Russian 0.22uF Teflon caps and want to try them first, before I replace the output caps.
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I saw these caps on ebay. Has anyone tried them. They are big, but think I can shoehorn them in.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-100UF-100-UF-RUN-OIL-CAPACITORS-CAPACITOR-370V-/380406832234?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D380394813619%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D6098618917369985004#ht_500wt_1156 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-100UF-100-UF-RUN-OIL-CAPACITORS-CAPACITOR-370V-/380406832234?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUA%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D380394813619%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D6098618917369985004#ht_500wt_1156)
I have a pair. Yes, you would have to do some shoehorning.
I decided not to use them, I didnt want to shoehorn :-)
I never even clipped them in temporarily so I cant comment on how they sound.
Maybe Ill give them a try at some point. At the price, I figured I'd hang on to them.
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When a shoe horn won't work:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,193.0.html
Put the capacitors outside the chassis. I used heat shrink tubing to insulate the high voltage.
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I have just recived my speedball upgrade, and have a pair of solen 100uf 400v that i will install after the speedball. And was wondering what orientation they have to be mounted? There arent any markings on them
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The "proper orientation" will only give a slightly lower noise level, it doesn't really have a polarity. You might contact the maker or importer for which lead is the outer wrap.
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This question made me think, and I came to an interesting conclusion.
Technically, it is preferable to connect the outer foil to the lowest impedance point, usually the output of the previous item. That would be the 6080 cathode in the case of Crack.This allows any capacitively coupled noise (usually hum) to drain to ground most easily.
But Crack is an OTL, with an output impedance that is about the same as the headphones - in the range of 100-150 ohms. So again, at least technically and in theory, it won't make any significant difference - the impedance is quite low in either direction, and you don't know which is higher anyhow, unless you plan to use only one headphone and that headphone is either unusually high impedance or unusually low impedance.
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This question made me think, and I came to an interesting conclusion.
Technically, it is preferable to connect the outer foil to the lowest impedance point, usually the output of the previous item. That would be the 6080 cathode in the case of Crack.This allows any capacitively coupled noise (usually hum) to drain to ground most easily.
But Crack is an OTL, with an output impedance that is about the same as the headphones - in the range of 100-150 ohms. So again, at least technically and in theory, it won't make any significant difference - the impedance is quite low in either direction, and you don't know which is higher anyhow, unless you plan to use only one headphone and that headphone is either unusually high impedance or unusually low impedance.
Thanks for the reply. I just wasnt shure. But is there not a whay to mesure the lowest impedance?
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Sorry, guess I wasn't clear. Here's another shot:
The Crack output impedance, as I said, is 100-150 ohms. Headphones are rated for impedance, usually, between 30 and 600 ohms. If you are using 500 ohm headphones, then they are higher than 100-150 ohms and the outer foil should go to the amp side. If you have 30 ohms phones, then it would go to the headphone side. If the phones are 120 ohms, it shouldn't make any difference. In practice, I doubt it would make a noticeable difference no matter what phones you have, since all these impedance are quite low relative to the reactance of capacitive coupling between the cap and anything else in the circuit.
Of course, lots of unexpected things turn out to be audible. There is only one way to tell, and that's to try it yourself. Because of the DC voltage being blocked by the capacitor, it would be wise to give the cap a hundred hours or so of music after reversing it, to see if there is a break-in effect which needs to be reversed along with the capacitor.
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If I remember, the longer leads on the Solens are attached to the outer foil. You can email them to verify. Naturally, I forgot to mark my caps before I snipped mine to the desired length. My amp is absolutely dead quiet so I'm not going to make a point to change anything. However mine is wired, it is sounding just fine.
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Oh yeah - forgot to mention - you can always wrap the cap in copper tape and ground it, thus shielding the outer foil so the whole thing is irrelevant. :^) Like the Gordian Knot, sometimes brute force works best.
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If I remember, the longer leads on the Solens are attached to the outer foil. You can email them to verify. Naturally, I forgot to mark my caps before I snipped mine to the desired length. My amp is absolutely dead quiet so I'm not going to make a point to change anything. However mine is wired, it is sounding just fine.
I wasnt concerned about it at all so just got the Mundorfs I used where I wanted them and installed them. EXCEPT, I intended to orient the second one the other way around so atleast in and out was on the same sides for both caps. I forgot. I chalk it up to just another of many "duh" moments for me :-)
So anyway, assuming that the Mundorfs are consistently labeled, one of them is connected outer foil to input and the other, outer foil to output. I realized it right after I soldered them in and strapped them down. Oh well. Maybe one day I'll flip one of them around. It's not like I can hear one channel is audibly noiser than the other so it hasnt been a priority.
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I used a pair of Hovland musicaps in a build recently, and like the Auricaps the manufacturer gives instructions on orientation of the caps. Not much explanation of the consequences of not following the instructions.
Cheers,
Shawn
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Oh yeah - forgot to mention - you can always wrap the cap in copper tape and ground it, thus shielding the outer foil so the whole thing is irrelevant. :^) Like the Gordian Knot, sometimes brute force works best.
I just might try grounding the outer shell of a KK Teflon. They all come with a metal shell. I will try to solder very quickly.
I used a pair of Hovland musicaps in a build recently, and like the Auricaps the manufacturer gives instructions on orientation of the caps. Not much explanation of the consequences of not following the instructions.
Cheers,
Shawn
Shawn,
Good point! That is so often not stated. The caps are not polarized so they won't blow up if put in "backward." The result is it might pick up noise or hum without the "proper" orientation.
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Good point! That is so often not stated. The caps are not polarized so they won't blow up if put in "backward." The result is it might pick up noise or hum without the "proper" orientation.
Right, the caps will sometimes mark off inner-foil and outer-foil sides. When the outer foil lead is connected to the point of lowest impedance, it can potentially make the sound ever-so-slightly cleaner and more detailed. Read here for more details: http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm
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I doubt with the ringing in my ears I would hear it. Then again I am very sensitive to proper absolute phase. I guess I will give it a read.
Thanks for the link.
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A little heads up about the Bypassing...
I had zero luck trying to bypass the electrolytic coupling caps in the crack. The least detrimental sounding that I tried was with .01uf Audiocap thetas, but I am certain the amp sounds better without them. All of the different caps I tried, (burned in using Grainger's method for about 5 days), seemed to add some zingy, etching crap in the higher frequencies.
I did however, have very good luck using one of the same thetas to bypass the last electrolytic in the power supply. There is a noticeable reduction is my noise-floor with this cap in place, and since it's addition, I no longer have any desire to replace the electrolytic coupling caps with larger film ones.
I also tried a 2.2uf, 1.0uf, and .1uf Solen (individually) in the same location and found these caps to be detrimental to the sound... in ways that are hard to describe. I found the music less involving with any of the solens in this position, and after 15-20min of listening, would have to turn the music off because it was giving me a headache. There is a very strong difference between the solen and the thetas in this position.
Encouraged by the success in the crack, I decided to try all of these variants in the seduction power supply as well... with very similar results. The solens sounded much worse in place than without, and the .01uf audiocap thetas made a noticeable improvement. I have had several friends over to confirm these observations with the seduction, and it was a unanimous vote of improvement when I had the theta bypassing the final cap in the power supply. (several A or B sessions on a selection of tracks, not indicating what I was doing when connecting or disconnecting the alligator clip)
My thoughts now...
1) Solen caps are not suitable in these bypass applications ( I will probably avoid the brand in the future )
2) Bypassing the electrolytic coupling caps in the crack does not yield positive results.
3) .01uf Audiocap thetas made a noticeable improvement in my crack and seduction power supply (not so much in the coupling bypass)
I have already ordered more thetas for additional experimenting with the quickie.
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I did however, have very good luck using one of the same thetas to bypass the last electrolytic in the power supply.
Hi Matthew,
What values did you use here ?
Is your Crack speedballed ?
Cheers,
John T.
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I have not had good results with Solen caps either. I did not try it in the Crack, but in other projects and never liked the results. I have a 2.0uF Clarity bypassing the last electrolytic on the power supply and like the results. Currently I'm burning in 0.22uF Russian Teflon caps to bypass the electrolytic output caps. I hope that I get better results. I will make sure that I give them enough time to get good and burn in. I'm currently two weeks in and plan on giving them another week.
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.01uf /600v was the value for the thetas, I have the speedball installed, alps blue pot, and CMC swiss red copper RCAs, ... other than this and the bypass cap, the amp is stock.
here is a link.. they are $4.91
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=027-700
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A little heads up about the Bypassing...
I had zero luck trying to bypass the electrolytic coupling caps in the crack. The least detrimental sounding that I tried was with .01uf Audiocap thetas, but I am certain the amp sounds better without them. All of the different caps I tried, (burned in using Grainger's method for about 5 days), seemed to add some zingy, etching crap in the higher frequencies.
I did however, have very good luck using one of the same thetas to bypass the last electrolytic in the power supply. There is a noticeable reduction is my noise-floor with this cap in place, and since it's addition, I no longer have any desire to replace the electrolytic coupling caps with larger film ones.
I also tried a 2.2uf, 1.0uf, and .1uf Solen (individually) in the same location and found these caps to be detrimental to the sound... in ways that are hard to describe. I found the music less involving with any of the solens in this position, and after 15-20min of listening, would have to turn the music off because it was giving me a headache. There is a very strong difference between the solen and the thetas in this position.
Encouraged by the success in the crack, I decided to try all of these variants in the seduction power supply as well... with very similar results. The solens sounded much worse in place than without, and the .01uf audiocap thetas made a noticeable improvement. I have had several friends over to confirm these observations with the seduction, and it was a unanimous vote of improvement when I had the theta bypassing the final cap in the power supply. (several A or B sessions on a selection of tracks, not indicating what I was doing when connecting or disconnecting the alligator clip)
My thoughts now...
1) Solen caps are not suitable in these bypass applications ( I will probably avoid the brand in the future )
2) Bypassing the electrolytic coupling caps in the crack does not yield positive results.
3) .01uf Audiocap thetas made a noticeable improvement in my crack and seduction power supply (not so much in the coupling bypass)
I have already ordered more thetas for additional experimenting with the quickie.
Interesting experience with bypassing.... From what I have read there have been more reports of negative effects from bypassing attempts than positive. I was very skeptical going into the whole concept.
I did have a very positive effect from bypassing my ampholms paper/oils with mundorf siliver/oils in my speaker crossover. I was surprised. I really didnt expect it to work. I just happened to have the mundorfs around and I thought I would give it a try. I was planning to use the mundorfs as a coupling cap but I didnt end up building that amp. Anyway - not sure how a pure mundorf silver/oil crossover would compare - cant affort it! Quite happy for now.
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.01uf /600v was the value for the thetas, I have the speedball installed, alps blue pot, and CMC swiss red copper RCAs, ... other than this and the bypass cap, the amp is stock.
here is a link.. they are $4.91
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=027-700
Thanks Matthew. (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FSmilies%2Fthumbzup.gif&hash=1da0f9a591a720f4cb896f78b18d225e8cb6b4c8)
John
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Hello again,
I just found some Mundorf Supreme silver/gold/oil 0.1 uf 2% 1200 vdc caps lying around.
No idea what I got them for. (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FSmilies%2Fpuzzled.gif&hash=5d20d8d3017679a801d32e547069cacfaed4beac)
Probably for bypassing something in a valve amp.
Might try one bypassing final PS electro. Is this cap OK for this purpose in Crack ?
Can someone please confirm which is the FINAL PS cap - 1, 2 or 3 ? I didn't build my Crack, BH did.
I'm guessing 3.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FaaaaPro%2FPhotos%2FHi%2520Fi%2FBH%2520CRACK%2FBH-Crack-PS-caps-001-.jpg&hash=806e4dad1261421f20a4c9bdc33848e3b908798c)
Cheers,
John
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John,
It is number 1.
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John,
It is number 1.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FSmilies%2Fredface.gif&hash=1122a9a28e2d1698a691faece008d93cda37c602)
Shows how much I know. (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FSmilies%2Feyeroll.gif&hash=adbf1d904090a493ffbf3181ba7df90325936626)
Thanks Brad (https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb272%2Fraksasajohn%2FSmilies%2Fthumbzup.gif&hash=1da0f9a591a720f4cb896f78b18d225e8cb6b4c8)
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A little more about bypassing... There are a few different opinions on the pros and cons of bypassing. If you go to the Audience (Auricap) site they state that one should never bypass output capacitors. Their reasoning is that this can cause smearing of the sound. When you bypass you are splitting your signal in two, (each channel), from what I understand differences in charge and discharge rate, however small, can cause an audible difference in the signal when recombined(smearing). There is also the possibility of parasitic capacitence, there are others here with much greater knowledge on these subjects than I, maybe they will chime in.
Cheers,
Shawn
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There's another theory, which suggests using a small resistor in series with the electrolytic - something around an ohm - and bypassing the combination. The ESL of the electrolytic can resonate with the bypass, and the resistor damps that resonance. Problem is that you need to know the ESL and the bypass capacitance to determine the best resistor value. I don't know anyone who has tried this, but it makes sense to me that a small resonance in the top octave could have bad audible effects. When I get some time I'll see what specs I can find on the Crack output cap.
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This is interesting. I didnt purchase any caps specifically for bypassing the last PS electrolytic in Crack. I have a bunch of film caps around but most are very low value or too high of a value that I didnt consider them for bypassing. So, I experimented with what I had on hand. One of these was indeed a .01uf audiocap theta (I have a few of these left over, used some as crossover bypass caps). I also tried the same value Dayton film and foil as well as a 1.0uf Solen or Axon. I even tried a low value tubular mylar cap. To be honest, I really didnt notice any real improvement with any of these caps. Certianly though, I didnt hear any negatives, just simply perceived no real difference at all. I wrote this off as maybe the value being too low. I increased the cap size by going away from the audio caps I had and I finally heard what I perceived as a subtle improvement in when I bypassed with a Panasonic 2.2 or 2.0uF (cant remember which) polyprop film cap. I attributed this subtle improvement to the caps maybe filtering some high frequency noise. But again, I attributed it to the larger cap value moreso than the "status" of the cap itself. I later picked up some larger value Solen and Mundorf caps, around 2 or 2.2 uF with the intent on replacing the panasonic in Crack and using these in other bottlehead kits. I never got around to replacing the Panny though as it did provide the subtle improvement I mentioned. I can revist the small value Theta I guess and give it another listen. However, I have a feeling I may be comparing the Theta to, what effectively amounts to, listening with no bypass cap seeing how my non golden ears heard no difference with the Theta, and those other caps I initially tried. But prompted by this topic, I may consider experimenting with the PS bypass caps I installed in FPIII and Seduction. I installed a Mundorf MKP in one and a Solen in the other as bypass caps as part of the original build, again, thinking it was probably more of the caps uF value than the cap itself. Understand ... Im not saying that improvements cant be had with different and/or more expensive caps. Just saying that I didnt hear that difference with the smaller value caps I tried in Crack. But again, I think it may be worth some experimenting with FPIII and Seduction since I didnt do any comparative listening in those amps. Of course, everyones ears and systems are different. I know that there are a few here that have used basic MKP caps, Solen, Mundorf etc. as bypass caps for the PS electrolytic. They may very well be hearing positives using these caps instead of the negatives impressions expressed here by Matthew just as he is hearing improvement with .01uf Thetas where I heard no real difference. Just based on the experimenting I did with Crack, I have to say that the small improvement I noted with the PS bypass cap doesnt compare to the improvement when replacing the lytic output caps with large MKP film caps. The stock lytics sound good, but replacing with Film caps made for a very nice improvement. Not earth shattering but a good bit beyond what I would consider "subtle". To me, it was a much larger difference/imporvement compared to bypassing the PS lytic. Again, we all have different ears and different systems but I wouldnt write off considering replacing the output lytics with film caps because of positive results achieved with bypassing the PS cap. I tend to reach the diminishing returns justification "defense" sooner than most others in this hobby but I wouldnt consider being there before upgrading the output caps to films after doing so myself. It was on my short list based on others results and for me, well worth it.
Of course, just my non tech savvy opinions and YMMV widely.
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Right now my intention is to try the 0.22 Russian Teflon caps. I doubt that I would have gone out and bought them, but since I had them lying around I figured I'd give them a try. I want to put Mundorf 100uF MPS caps in to replace the electrolytics.
The only changes I have made at this point is to the power supply. These include a bypass cap and choke. So far these changes seem to have made an improvement to my ears and I think the amp sounds great. I can't imagine that the Speedball can make it that much better.
I will also have to look at doing similar PS upgrades to my Foreplay III, but I have been doing most of my listening with the Crack lately.
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Here's a question for the technically minded:
Is it possible to use Metallised Film caps (polyester or polypropylene) to completely replace polarised electroes in PS caps of an amp like the Crack ?
What would be the PROs & CONs of doing this ? Any actual advantage to the film caps ?
Here's a CON: Size.
Didn't old low power tube amps use PIO in PS ? They aren't polarised are they ?
Not very practical, but I'm just interested to know.
Cheers,
John
EDIT: This continues in a new thread in Technical Topics, here: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,2614.msg21206.html#msg21206
Pls respond to this query there. Thanks.
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We are talking about wiring caps in parallel to achieve the bypass right!?
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Here's a question for the technically minded:
Is it possible to use Metallised Film caps (polyester or polypropylene) to completely replace polarised electroes in PS caps of an amp like the Crack ?
What would be the PROs & CONs of doing this ? Any actual advantage to the film caps ?
Here's a CON: Size.
Didn't old low power tube amps use PIO in PS ? They aren't polarised are they ?
Not very practical, but I'm just interested to know.
Cheers,
John
That is a good question for a thread in Technical Topics. You just edit your post with a link here.
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Here's a question for the technically minded:
Is it possible to use Metallised Film caps (polyester or polypropylene) to completely replace polarised electroes in PS caps of an amp like the Crack ?
What would be the PROs & CONs of doing this ? Any actual advantage to the film caps ?
Here's a CON: Size.
Didn't old low power tube amps use PIO in PS ? They aren't polarised are they ?
Not very practical, but I'm just interested to know.
Cheers,
John
Yes it is technically possible, and preferable. Film caps are more reliable and have much longer lives, as well as sounding better. Most popular on the forums are so-called "motor run" caps, but other types are available and as long as the ratings are suitable would work well. Because they are large and expensive, it is most economical to replace the resistors in the power supply filter with chokes. But the last cap in the power supply is effectively in series with the output cap, so it should be at least as big and preferably bigger, as well as being of similar quality.
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Thanks for the response, Paul.
I started a thread re this, as per Grainger's request, here in technical topics: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,2614.msg21206.html#msg21206
John
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After reading this thread, I decided to try something along the lines of bypassing the output caps with some smaller .047uf caps I had lying around. I had the Sprague Orange Drop polypropylene film and foil caps sitting around from when I was working on guitar amps.
With aligator clip leads, I clipped them in and out, and in, and out, and in, and out, etc., and THINK I may have been noticing a difference. When I tried to pinpoint that difference, it went away. When I let my imagination go, I'd imagine I was hearing more space and clarity in the higher registers.
I know this is relatively ghetto compared to all the fancy caps y'all are talking about, and what I'm doing may or may not improve or even change the sound, but my question is this: how etheric and/or poetic are these differences y'all are hearing? If you're not A/B'ing the caps with the same audio (even same passage), same source, same volume, same phones, same ambient room, etc., how on earth do you know what you're hearing?
I want to get on this bandwagon, but I want to do so with a minimum of pretending to hear stuff.
I'm sure this post merits at least 10 flames, but I am being honest. It's not the Emperor's New Cloths situation I'm wary of, but rather I'm expressing a genuine interest in learning what to listen for and how.
My background: I've been a working musician, spent lots of time in recording studios on both sides of the glass, had too much musical education, and am generally good at hearing stuff.
This is all very fun. I'm going to solder in those Orange Drops and keep pretending--and enjoy my first "mod".
-Patrick
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After reading this thread, I decided to try something along the lines of bypassing the output caps with some smaller .047uf caps I had lying around. I had the Sprague Orange Drop polypropylene film and foil caps sitting around from when I was working on guitar amps.
With aligator clip leads, I clipped them in and out, and in, and out, and in, and out, etc., and THINK I may have been noticing a difference. When I tried to pinpoint that difference, it went away. When I let my imagination go, I'd imagine I was hearing more space and clarity in the higher registers.
I know this is relatively ghetto compared to all the fancy caps y'all are talking about, and what I'm doing may or may not improve or even change the sound, but my question is this: how etheric and/or poetic are these differences y'all are hearing? If you're not A/B'ing the caps with the same audio (even same passage), same source, same volume, same phones, same ambient room, etc., how on earth do you know what you're hearing?
I want to get on this bandwagon, but I want to do so with a minimum of pretending to hear stuff.
I'm sure this post merits at least 10 flames, but I am being honest. It's not the Emperor's New Cloths situation I'm wary of, but rather I'm expressing a genuine interest in learning what to listen for and how.
My background: I've been a working musician, spent lots of time in recording studios on both sides of the glass, had too much musical education, and am generally good at hearing stuff.
This is all very fun. I'm going to solder in those Orange Drops and keep pretending--and enjoy my first "mod".
-Patrick
Hi Patrick - I cant agree with you more! A healthy dose of skepticism is the best way to approach this hobby. I have not spent a ton of money on equipment. Not that I dont have it, its the principle behind it. I want to have a personal relationship with my gear as do most if not all Bottlehead fans.
With that said, I do subscribe to the audiophile axiom (not mine by the way) - "everything makes a difference". Tweaks and kit that are priced in the stratosphere deserve much more skepticism than those of moderate, affordable price. I have read numerous "reviews" of ridiculously high priced v-caps for example. Many of them gushingly positive. I still will never buy one because I dont believe they could possibly be a smart "value" compared to alternatives. That doesnt mean that it is "unwise" to spend significant coin on caps.
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I have found that often, when a difference is subtle, I have to distract my attention so the old subconscious reptile brain can have a listen. I've even left the room and started a conversation in an adjacent room, only to realize five minutes later that - you know, that last change is really working for me.
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Patrick, you are right on with everything except for expecting flames. The experience of listening to music is a different experience for everyone. It's a brain/ear thing and everyone has a different combination of those things. What one person perceives as "bright and/or tinny" may be what another hears as "nicely extended high end". You can only hear for yourself.
If anything, what seems to be valued most around here is an individual's right to experiment and decide for themselves what sounds good. Those ideas are shared and we can take them or leave them depending on our own tastes and budget.
I'm an extreme skeptic myself, but lately, I'm learning that a few things may need a second look.
Just keep listening and let your ears be your guide.
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After reading this thread, I decided to try something along the lines of bypassing the output caps with some smaller .047uf caps I had lying around. I had the Sprague Orange Drop polypropylene film and foil caps sitting around from when I was working on guitar amps.
With aligator clip leads, I clipped them in and out, and in, and out, and in, and out, etc., and THINK I may have been noticing a difference. When I tried to pinpoint that difference, it went away. When I let my imagination go, I'd imagine I was hearing more space and clarity in the higher registers.
Patrick, well spoken. I have personally found that most mods, tweaks and uprades to be highly subjective. Tubes and caps are at the top of the list IMHO. You will find that many of the folks here use A/B methods when performing mods. I had 3 types of 100uf film caps on hand when I built the crack, Solen fast caps, mundorf mkps and mundorf mtube caps. I A/B tested these using vinyl, cds, and digital files, I ended up using the mundorf mtube caps, which are suppose to be ps caps not output couplers, but they sounded best to me. If someone is happy with a stock amp, more power to them, I am envious. Honestly, if I could afford a Clear audio Statement turntable, (150,000 dollars, amazing engineering), I would probably have it for about a month before I would start thinking about how I could make it sound better. I may not be OCD, but I do have the O part.
Cheers,
Shawn
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My favorite simile is that it is like spices. Some people like jalapeno peppers others like Ancho peppers. What is fit for one person isn't right for another. If we were all the same there would be one car in the world.
I'll add wiring to Shawn's list. Everybody hears things differently. Not to mention a ______ (fill in an audio component or tweak or electronic component here) that sounds good in one system might sound horrible or make no change at all in another.
But do read my signature.
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I'm looking to.replace the electrolytic output caps with film and wa.Ted to k.ow what users of the Obbligato 100uF PS have thought about the sound when used in the crack. I have used the film in oils and have been happy with the results.
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I'm looking to.replace the electrolytic output caps with film and wa.Ted to k.ow what users of the Obbligato 100uF PS have thought about the sound when used in the crack. I have used the film in oils and have been happy with the results.
IMO Obbligatos film caps would be a great option to replace electrolytics. I tried them as crossover caps and really couldnt like them, but I was comparing them with top end film caps. I dont see how you could loose replacing electrolyics with them. You got me thinking!
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I used 3 47uf obbligato PS caps in my Bijou, they sounded great. Can't tell you how they would perform as output caps in the Crack, but I am using Mundorf MTube PS caps as the output in my Crack and I am very happy with them. Might as well give the Obbligatos a try. I think the Premium golds are easily one of the best bang for buck caps around. The only problem I have with Obbligatos is for some strange reason,(probably my strange mind), whenever I type, read or speak the name I get that damned song by Styx stuck in my head. (Mr. Roboto). Maybe Dr. Toobz could give me some insight into that one.
Cheers,
Shawn
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I have a pair of 100uf Obbiigato caps sitting next to my Crack kit on my work bench waiting for me to start the build. Would also like to here if anyone else has used them.
Pat McSween
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Aside from the all the great points mentioned so far, I'd like to add that for me, even after the immediate A/B go/no-go testing, there is the much longer term test of just listening to a wide variety of cuts from your collection and just taking notice if you feel there is something you miss or really like about the change you made. It's not even an analytical thing, just take notice of how much music you're playing and if you look forward to it, don't feel fatigued afterwards, are listtening longer or shorter, etc. Of course this can only be done when all is well burned in, and really has to be a long term thing so as to account for normal variations in season, mood, and other things going on in life. It's why I generally tell people up front that this is not a hobby/pursuit for the impatient :-).
Of course a lot of people will just want to go with whichever they find to be the better choice at the time of the modification, which is also very valid, especially after a certain amoutt of experience to guide that initial decision.
-- Jim
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Jim - point well taken - What you expressed so well is probably one of the most frustrating aspects of this pursuit, and clearly the most humbling. I think that experience is why those with means drop such huge coin on kit (I'm talking about the $10k+ per component crowd). For them, time is precious and they just want to listen (taking bragging rights out of the equation). As a budget limited audiophile enthusiast, its good to know I'm in good company though!
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Since they are on sale, I thought I would order these...100uf / 400V, M-CAP
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John,
Generally caps are chosen relatively close to their working voltage (safety margin added of course) as in the same circuit the higher voltage cap will generally have higher ESR and inductance. In this situation, how much that will effect the sound, I can't even begin to guess but I'd say it might be pretty minimal. Electrolytics are another story though...
HTH,
Jim
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Thanks! so to figure the working voltage in this case, I would pick the voltage based on the electrolytic I'm replacing? I think its around 600V if memory is right. Guess I,m wondering what the working V is? Thats what I measure on the upstream side of the electrolytic thats installed?
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The Crack power supply caps are rated at 250V. So you can be assured that includes the turn on surge and some safety margin. Anything downstream will see lower voltages.
I don't know if 200V is safe, maybe someone using 200V caps will chime in. A 250V rating has to be safe.
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Hey John - From what I have read about subjective cap reviews, it appears that the higher voltage versions tend to sound better. Not sure if there is any reason to believe that! If all else being equal and they didnt cost much more I would go with the higher voltage rating.
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In the Crack, anything above about 160 v is fine for the coupling caps. Definitely no need for 600v caps in the Carack.
To test the sonic impact of various voltage caps, one would have to have a selection of the same brand and make cap at the same size and different ratings and then break them all in in and then go back and listen to them one at a time. Which is to say that I'm guessing the higher voltage caps sounding better is more an issue of the construction of those particular caps, and maybe, just maybe a bit better mechanical damping due to a thicker dielectric. Lots of possibilities to investigate if one is so motivated.
-- Jim
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I'm using 200v Auricaps in mine without any problems other than being very large 2.52 x 2.80.
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I went with the 250V versions of the Mundorf M-Caps. They are smaller and 5 or 6 bucks less a piece. I would bet my tin ears that I personally wouldnt be able to hear a difference between the 250 and 400V versions so saving 10 or 12 bucks and a little bit of space was fine with me. YMMV and all that stuff.
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Anyone know if it would it be possible to implement output capacitor switching on the fly? I can't think of a better way to do A-B tests on caps. Would a switch cause problems for the headphones? Maybe both sets of caps would need to be charged while switching... Any ideas? I'm sure I'm not the first one considering this.
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Sounds completely doable -- but using a shorting type switch. Tube cad journal (John Broskie) sells such a switch and small pcb for just this purpose -- go to tubecad.com and check out the glassware store hardware link. I haven't been there in a while, but I know he used to sell this switch in the past.
HTH,
Jim
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Anyone know if it would it be possible to implement output capacitor switching on the fly? I can't think of a better way to do A-B tests on caps. Would a switch cause problems for the headphones? Maybe both sets of caps would need to be charged while switching... Any ideas? I'm sure I'm not the first one considering this.
Switching on the output side would keep all the caps charged. tpatton did this with one of his Seductions. He had 6 or more capacitors to compare.
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Not sure I would trust my ears to A/B cap switching. I would be more trusting a prolonged audition over some weeks, especially with high grade caps. The changes are so subtle, it takes some time. Much like tube rolling.
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Be sure each cap has its own resistor to ground, so they are all charged up and you don't get huge "pops".
Overall I'm with earwaxxer. You'll hear a difference almost immediately, but judging whether it's a good or bad difference often takes me a long time.
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Thanks for advice guys. For now I'll do a switch to enable/disable a bypass cap I've had installed for awhile, so all components have already had plenty of time to burn in. I really just want to take the guess work and psychological aspects out of the equation. I mean can anyone really say they can accurately remember what their previous setups sound like if newly installed components are first burned in for weeks or more? Especially if you want the upgrades to sound better, chances are to you they will.
Though the sound itself is not everything. With diy it's fun to tinker with stuff even if the improvement in sound quality is marginal. I suppose there is some prestige in having an amp which has silver wire and boutique caps etc... Some people will happily buy a watch for thousands of dollars when a ten dollar watch will tell the time just the same. And it's fine. I certainly don't intend to criticize what others do, there just seems to be quite a bit of snake oil being sold in the world of high end audio.
Sorry for going a bit offtopic : )
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Hey John - From what I have read about subjective cap reviews, it appears that the higher voltage versions tend to sound better. Not sure if there is any reason to believe that! If all else being equal and they didnt cost much more I would go with the higher voltage rating.
Thanks guys...if they are on sale its been extended till the end of April. Auri-caps are 40% off (partsconnextio) which for us is still 100 bucks each...
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hey John - cool thing about the films is that they will outlive your equipment! I have moved my Mundorf silver/oils around for the past 10 yrs or so. No shortage of uses. If I were to buy new speakers today I'm sure I would hack out whatever was in there and stick my own stuff in there.
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Yeah, thats why I'm thinking of upgrading(?) to the auricaps (100 uf / 200v), (2.52"D x 2.80"L).
But really I think I will probably get the Mundorfs (100 uf / 400v) while they are on sale (20% off till the end of the month, which may be enough to cover shipping from Canada. why is it cheaper to ship from everyplace else on the planet than Canada).
ADDED, I wonder what Duelunds would sound like if they were made in the needed values?
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Yeah, thats why I'm thinking of upgrading(?) to the auricaps (100 uf / 200v), (2.52"D x 2.80"L).
But really I think I will probably get the Mundorfs (100 uf / 400v) while they are on sale (20% off till the end of the month, which may be enough to cover shipping from Canada. why is it cheaper to ship from everyplace else on the planet than Canada).
ADDED, I wonder what Duelunds would sound like if they were made in the needed values?
Hey John - Duelunds would be sweet! Too pricy for my blood. I think the VSF's go pretty high, but the price gets nuts! I'm listening to The Mundorf 59uf MKP's that arrived yesterday from Parts Connection. Brand new of course, but they sound very good. I replaced the electrolytic cathode bypass caps (1000uf) in the Quickie with them. I checked some calculations and 59uf is plenty big enough to not roll off the bass. Paul said 40uf would be enough so I bought a bit bigger to error on caution.
I'm a Mundorf fan, so I'm a bit biased. I have about a dozen of them here and there. I think they are a good value.
Cheers - Eric
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Eric,
I am burning in (http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,80.msg286.html#msg286) (link) for 3 weeks a pair of Mundorf 0.47uF Silver Gold for my Eros. I couldn't pass up the Parts ConneXion (http://www.partsconnexion.com/) (link) sale.
The Mundorf Silver caps (2uF) in my FP 2 are the most expensive cap that I have ever bought, but not heard. So with the sale I bumped it up for the Eros. It is designed with a lower value (0.47uF). The Foreplays need something higher. PJ has even challenged me to try a 0.22uF in my Eros.
Sorry for all the Eros mentions in a Crack thread...
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Hey Granger - How goes it? Very cool burn in rig - has to be about as simple as they get. ! Thats putting your engineering skills to good use!
In general, as far as burn in goes, I havent really noticed much of a difference with component burn in, outside of the first few hours. A new solder joint tends to sound better over about an hour or so as well. For me, if the component has some disagreeable qualities, they usually dont go away after the first few hours of use. I good example is the Emotiva amp I bought recently. That thing is PACKED with electronics. Most likely not of the highest grade as well (for $700 they cant be). Its sound has changed some over the hours, but not much. I liked it out of the box. Very agreeable, nice and well behaved. Not what I would have expected from such a complex low cost SS beast.
Dont get me wrong, I do subscribe to the adage 'everything makes a difference', I think its a matter of degree. What mood I'm in certainly is a much bigger factor than any of the others, on any given day.
Currious to hear your take on the Silver/Golds (are they the oilers?)! My prediction would be more detail and resolution, along the lines of Teflon.
Cheers - Eric
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Yup, the Silver/Gold caps are Silver Gold and oil. It will be a couple of weeks before I can give any impressions.
In particular Teflon caps start out Ok, but become hard then smooth out. The increased detail and presence for high and mid frequencies is what I have noticed with burn in.
And, of course, the right quantity of your favorite brown fluid probably makes more difference. Dan likes Gin. So everybody is different.
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Ok I pulled the trigger on a pair of 100uF oil caps from eBay. I figured that for the price it was worth a shot. Not sure how I'm going to fit them in since I already have 2 Triad chokes in the power supply. It will be a couple of weeks before I get a chance to install them. I want to burn them in first.
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100uF oilers must be some big ones! Russian? Do you have a link? I tend to like the oils with my Maggies combined with the SS gear. My paper in oils sound real good bypassed with my pricy silver/oils.
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Ok I pulled the trigger on a pair of 100uF oil caps from eBay. I figured that for the price it was worth a shot. Not sure how I'm going to fit them in since I already have 2 Triad chokes in the power supply. It will be a couple of weeks before I get a chance to install them. I want to burn them in first.
Motor run caps?
Cheers,
Geary
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Here is the link. I figured for the price it was worth giving these a shot.
100uF Oil Cap (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-100UF-100-UF-RUN-OIL-CAPACITORS-CAPACITOR-370V?item=380434363674&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D4%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8107958092104590306#ht_1035wt_254)
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Here is the link. I figured for the price it was worth giving these a shot.
100uF Oil Cap (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-100UF-100-UF-RUN-OIL-CAPACITORS-CAPACITOR-370V?item=380434363674&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D4%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8107958092104590306#ht_1035wt_254)
I have a couple. Big caps and Im not creative enough, or atleast dont feel like being so at the moment :-) Honestly, I think it would take a taller base or a seperate box for the caps but I didnt measure, just went by a "man these are big, maybe later" assessment. But if you figure out a way to shoehorn them in there, please do post pictures.
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Yup, those are motor start caps. Big a$$ed motors need an angle between the voltage and current wave to get the torque to start from a dead standstill. This supplies it. More sophisticated motors have a speed switch that takes the capacitor out of the circuit after a certain speed.
I have a pair of those in my FP 2 PDMPS. I put heat shrink tube over the lugs after soldering on the wires.
I haven't used these as signal path caps, but I should try the spare pair I have.
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Here is the link. I figured for the price it was worth giving these a shot.
100uF Oil Cap (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-100UF-100-UF-RUN-OIL-CAPACITORS-CAPACITOR-370V?item=380434363674&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D4%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8107958092104590306#ht_1035wt_254)
Looks to be CSC. Pretty good cap, but I haven't used in the signal path, just PS. I have 2 of these that are going into my 300B mono amp build.
Cheers,
Geary
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I have been burning in the big motor run caps for almost a week now. Not sure if it needs more time, but not sure I can wait. Got figureout how to fit them in. I know that I will have to remove the big Russian Teflons. I'm just hoping I can squeeze them in their place. I hope they sound good in the circuit.
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I think my 56uF M-Cap MKP's cathode bypass caps are finally settled into my Quickie. They sounded good from the get go. Everything is good and agreeable at this stage. I dont feel I need volume to enjoy my music. Great punch, response and transients. I'm overall happy to get rid of the electrolytics even though I believe the Elna's were a good match.
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Hey Brad,
Just a tip on those motor run caps used as coupling caps -- bee sure to ground the outer casing to safety ground -- they can be a bit "leaky" and it is possible to get a zap from the case. This is why you most often see these mounted with clamps to metal surfaces.
-- Jim
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Jim,
Thanks for the advance. I'm working on a lift kit so i can fit them under the plate.
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Who needs those little girly electrolytic caps, when you can have a real mans cap like these.
Well I was able to fit the 100uF motor run caps in and I still have the Russian Teflon caps as well. The Teflon caps help to keep those big caps from toughing anything. It is making music, but have not had a chance to do any real listening. I had to increase the depth of the base to fit them in as you can see in the picture.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi597.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt55%2Fpnalitt%2FIMAG0189.jpg&hash=c21c55f9b5eb8cd26003aa9f1ce0664a36be109e)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi597.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt55%2Fpnalitt%2FIMAG0192.jpg&hash=305772294a5ed89be4ed35bd11f3c7b64d029652)
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Brad,
An extended base Crack! Of course I love the caps. Big caps are manly!
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Holy c(r)ap! Thems some cajones! Nice enclosure.
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I swear I'm not compensating.
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In this case, I think you should say I added the Crack to a couple of Caps, versus I added a couple of caps to the Crack ;D
Cheers,
Shawn
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Hi, been lurking around here for the past week or so. Just wanted to ask, will there be any improvement if I bypass the other 2 stock electrolytic caps in the PS (of course together with a bigger last cap and a bypass on that one too)?
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Hi, been lurking around here for the past week or so. Just wanted to ask, will there be any improvement if I bypass the other 2 stock electrolytic caps in the PS (of course together with a bigger last cap and a bypass on that one too)?
The stakes are pretty low, give it a shot!
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Hmmm...I'm at work, so I can't see any of the pictures in this thread, but after reading the past 11 pages of posts, it still isn't clear to me what is meant by "bypassing" the caps in the power supply. I gather that I should use a film cap with lower values than the cap I am bypassing, but my questions are:
1. Is there any consensus on (roughly) what the values (uf and voltage) of the bypass cap should be?
2. What should I solder each of the leads on the bypass cap to? (I assume the stock electrolytic cap stays where it is, with no changes.)
3. Paul has mentioned several times that - at least in theory - one should solder in a resistor as well, but the problem is that you don't know what value that resistor should have. Have people generally just been soldering in the bypass cap without a resistor?
Best regards,
Adam
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Adam,
The voltage must be the same or larger if you can't find the same voltage rating as the power supply cap.
1/100 is good for a bypass. Bypassing is putting a smaller better capacitor in parallel with the existing cap.
I don't use resistors when bypassing and have had no problems. The ideal way is to try a number of resistors with alligator clip jumpers then solder the final value you decide on.
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Thanks, Grainger.
Best regards,
Adam
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Hey guys, I'm looking to get some obbligato caps to change my current solen 100uf caps I have in my crack. Only thing is that I'm deciding between the 100uf PSU version or the 70uf film oil version. Any thoughts?
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I like the Film/Oil in the black cans. It has a smooth sound. The highs are crisp, mids brought forward some. I have 10uF Parafeed Obbligato Film/Oil (630V) in my Paramours. They are pretty big.
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Hey guys, I'm looking to get some obbligato caps to change my current solen 100uf caps I have in my crack. Only thing is that I'm deciding between the 100uf PSU version or the 70uf film oil version. Any thoughts?
Leave the Solens in.
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I would have to say that you should try the 'oils' if you are looking for some 'oily' smoothness. I personally like the oils. Some better than others. The pricey ones I like more! I really like the Ampohm paper/oils. Good bang for the buck. YMMV. - Cheers - Eric
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Hey guys, I'm looking to get some obbligato caps to change my current solen 100uf caps I have in my crack. Only thing is that I'm deciding between the 100uf PSU version or the 70uf film oil version. Any thoughts?
Leave the Solens in.
I think i'll do just that, the obbligatos are a little too big IMO. Thanks for the advice!
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FWIW - I swapped my prior 91uf axons out for the 100uf obbligato psu caps and am very happy with the results.
To my ears, via hd800's, the deep bass improved (presumably due, at least in part, to the change in capacitance) and trebles (e.g. violins and other instruments that play in that part of the spectrum) seem cleaner and less grainy. Then again, maybe I'm just hearing what I want to hear as a result of confirmation-bias, having already read the descriptions on humblehomemadehifi.
From a fit standpoint - they are longer but no fatter than the old axons were, so there were no issues.
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Post #1 - Yay for me! 8)
I am due to take arrival of my Crack in a few days (with Speedball) and this is my first crack at DIY (other than a Cmoy) and circuit modification.
I am thinking of going with a ClarityCap 100uf SA bypassed with a Mundorf 2.2uf M-CAP Supreme for the output (in parallel). Anyone tried this combo, can predict results? Would I be better off using a 1 uf Mundorf silver/gold/oil EVO for the bypass? Any words of affirmation or impassioned pleas for an immediate change of mind would be most welcome.
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Sorry about this.
Have just read the following ( http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html )
Sound: The Clarity Cap range has an overall similarity in tonal balance, going up the range you gain a bit in clarity and spatiality. I find the SA to be neutral with a slightly warmish presentation but also a bit closed-in. Compared to the Clarity Cap PX definition and separation are better, the stereo-image is also little larger. I did find the top end to be slightly rolled-off, not that they lacked detailed but on some recordings I wanted a fraction more transparency - but all in all still very nice. On the downside the "S" and "T" in vocals can be a bit plasticy, this is probably due to the lack in transparany in the top octave, making the octaves below sound a little masked. Making a capacitor using about 90% Clarity Cap SA and about 10% Mundorf Supreme works very well, this tends to open up the top end just nicely without altering anything else.
I am probably better off getting this: 10uf / 600V, M-CAP Supreme and using as a bypass. Agreed?
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What the heck do "plasticy" S and T's sound like? Im picturing listening to someone singing words with S and T sounds through a cheap Kazoo ;D
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I'm with Desmond. But I do know they mean it as being a negative. There are a number of Bottleheads who are using Clarity caps. I'll be using some in my Paramours soon. I don't remember any serious drawbacks. Of course, higher dollar caps, of any make, often sound better.
Edit: The above was set to Beige color and didn't show up.
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These sound 'differences' are so subtle its hard to describe. I usually describe the sound of higher end caps, resistors, pots etc, as being more refined, mature, open, defined, cleaner etc. To try to get more specific than that is hard, and mostly relative to the current comparison, not necessarily generalizable to all situations.
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Thanks Grainger and Eric. Might hold off on the bypass for the moment and put the money to a pot upgrade.
Cheers
Nathan
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Hey guys,
just bought some ClarityCap PX caps (2X100uf and 1X2.2uf) during the Partsconnexion sale. I am excited to upgrade the output caps and I have chosen to bypass the last power cap.
I will build a new bigger box to house the Crack but I will start off with the last power cap bypass. I remember asking about discharging the Output Caps and PB stated that they have made the kit so that the Output caps discharge and it is safe just to pull them out and upgrade...but I don't know about the caps attached to the power supply.
I just want to be sure that if I touch the power cap I will not fry. Ofcourse I will unplug the power before working on the kit!!
As Ozzy said "I told them to enjoy life not end your life"
Thanks!...Dave
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You can measure the unstriped end of any of the black power supply caps. Anything below 10V is low enough to work on, and the power supply is self draining, but it takes a little time.
-PB
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Cap discharge is a particular pet peeve of mine, not on Bottlehead gear but at work. We have something called a Fresnel Lens Optical Landing System (FLOLS) which guides tailhook aircraft to a precise touchdown point. It was designed in the 60's and has 60's and 70's era components still.
We have two big caps on a relay board which tend to hold a charge for a bit. Somewhere along the line, long before my time somebody decided that direct shorting the cap across the leads with a screwdriver prior to maintenance was the proper thing to do. It accomplishes two things. Killing the built up charge and making a very cool POP which pleases young United States Marines to no end.
9 times out of 10 my troubleshooting detective work was preceded with a "I had just discharged the cap and then I turned it back on and the ________now isn't working."
It has literally taken me 10 years to break that mentality.
PB is correct that anything under 10 volts is safe and basically that's because your meter has a 9 volt battery in it which is capable of charging the cap.
I know nobody said they were direct shorting caps but I couldn't help telling my Marines with a Screwdriver story.
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Thanks guys,
Appreciate it. I think next weekend I will do the bypass.
Take care....Dave
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Cool story John!
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When I was in high school(yah EARIC I went there) working for a radio repair shop, I discharge a huge cap in CB linear amp. I was never the same.
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There, there Greg... Your story is good too! :)
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Eric dyes his hair
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John,
I know the old screwdriver across the cap trick, but I thought that military electronic schools taught you to use a wirewound resistor.
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John,
I know the old screwdriver across the cap trick, but I thought that military electronic schools taught you to use a wirewound resistor.
There's the rub. My guys support this electric/electronic piece of gear with zero electrical training. Just an A school taught by guys who also have no electrical training.
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Actually minimal training for trainers doesn't just happen in the military. Look around you, it's the accepted level everywhere.
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I can't give an opinion for today's military, but... the training my contemporaries got was exemplary! Set this in the 1960s and 1970s. It would be a travesty if this did not endure.
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Capacitor DOWNGRADE question:
I'm putting together my first Crack and I've found the output caps are missing from my kit. My local electronics shop has 100uf / 160V electrolytic caps for $1.20 each. No brand name listed on the site. If I stick those in while I wait for the stock ones to arrive will my life be ruined? Any suggestions for alternatives?
Thanks
Rob
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100uf/160V generic caps will function in the interim.
-PB
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Capacitor DOWNGRADE question:
I'm putting together my first Crack and I've found the output caps are missing from my kit. My local electronics shop has 100uf / 160V electrolytic caps for $1.20 each. No brand name listed on the site. If I stick those in while I wait for the stock ones to arrive will my life be ruined? Any suggestions for alternatives?
Thanks
Rob
A life without music is already ruined! $2.40 to hear the first notes? What's to lose? Just tack 'em in and listen until the caps arrived.
Cheers,
Geary
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I thought so. Thanks guys.
This is what happens when you are too lazy/excited to verify the BOM.
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You can measure the unstriped end of any of the black power supply caps. Anything below 10V is low enough to work on, and the power supply is self draining, but it takes a little time.
-PB
Sorry Paul but I have another question. How long should it normally take for the power cap to go down to 0. I wanted to test it today so I powered up my Crack and measured the voltage at terminal 13. It was 172V. I next turned off the power and remeasured. It now measures 0V. Would this cap discharge so quickly? I thought it would take some time (more than 1 minute) for the cap to discharge. Does this sound right?
Thanks...Dave
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Don't disconnect the meter. Leave it connected and watch the rate of drop after you turn off the switch. It might take anywhere from a few seconds to a minute to drop.
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Perfect!!!
Thanks Doc! Appreciate it!!
Take care...Dave
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The rate of discharge depends on many things.
If you have tubes that are warm and conducting, they can help draw down the voltage in the power supply.
If you have the Speedball installed, it will drain the power supply pretty quickly to around 3V.
If you have no warm tubes, no Speedball, and a loose 270K resistor, the power supply may never drain down ;)
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I can't give an opinion for today's military, but... the training my contemporaries got was exemplary! Set this in the 1960s and 1970s. It would be a travesty if this did not endure.
I still remember the my USAF basic electronics instructor at Keesler airplane camp explaining the difference between two components or circuit topologies (this was 1973, can't remember details). "This is the same [as the last one we discussed], only different."
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Hi guys I have been having fun researching output capacitors for upgrading my Crack in the new year, being in the UK prices here seem to be higher than those over in the US and there is not so much choice readily available :-[ So narrowing it down the has been difficult but these two sound attractive and are within my budget.
The Obbligato 100uf 400v +-10% 45mmx90mm at
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Ok I do have some more info on the JB JFX which I decided in the end to purchase. Fingers crossed they will be a worthwhile upgrade we shall see.
Following on from my earlier post, the JFX-Premium metallized polypropylene film capacitor intrigued me and there is something about taking the path less travelled that I find attractive compared to running with the more obvious tried and tested choices for upgrading the caps in the Crack.
After some considerable time spent online getting nowhere I ended up contacting JB Capacitors direct in China.
It turns out that they have a 30 year history of capacitor manufacturing with modern machinery and production methods achieving high consistent quality to meet many international accreditations.
On to the JFX-Premium metallized polypropylene film capacitor.
These are built to high specification and JB state they regard their JFX product as being of equivalent quality as the more well know brands such as Jensen, Auricap, Erse, Mundorf, Auricap, Erse, Mallory, Jantzen Audio. Which is not a claim to make lightly I would think.
A premium grade of
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Its been both fun and confidence building adding a couple of mods to my BHC over the last week. Earlier today it was the turn of the JB Capacitors, JFX 100uf 250v premium film caps. ;D
I still need to add some insulating tape to the cap leads and connecting wires, I will pick some up on Monday I'm a bit to worried about getting my hot air gun to close to use heat shrink sleeving.
Also on the first pic you can see how the Valab attenuator only just fits inside the case. I had glued some corner braces to the case and needed to remove one of these for the Valab to fit.
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/5542979/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
(https://www.head-fi.org/image/id/5542980/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
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Is this just in my head? I need some input.
Love my crack w. speedball.
I put in 2 replacement output caps: Mundorf MKV film caps (250V 100uF) and one bypass cap: Mundorf Supreme 2.2uF during my initial crack / speedball build.
My impression when new was that with the crack+speedball+caps+ HD650s I was hearing unnoticed detail and with clearer placement of the instruments, almost like focusing an image after it's initially hazy, to compare it by visual analogy. Additionally, I could hear various aspects of the music much better, percussion in particular, subtle breaths of singers, low level distortion, reverb and other more subtle voicing effects on instruments, and woodwind instruments had an airy quality that was missing before.
All in all, pretty awesome.
I am now about 70 hours into breaking in my kit. 75% of those are running it at reasonable volume for 8 hrs or so, the rest from actual listening. I am doing this because it is my understanding that caps take about 200hrs to break in. I know this is debatable, but I figured it couldn't hurt on the off chance.
What I think I am experiencing now is that the sound seems less detailed than it initially did. Like there's a thin film over the music. It's less crisp, like the edges are rounded off the sound or something. (Sorry really failing with descriptors here)
Is this in my head because I am now used to the detail inherent in my setup, or is it possible that my caps are evolving into a less detailed sound?
Thanks in advance,
Ryan
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In my limited experience, caps do often go through a phase where they sound worse than they did at first, before they fully are broken in. I've never seen it take that long; usually it's more like at the 20-hour point. But since the mechanism is mysterious, I can't discount this possibility.
As the alternate theory, the initial unpleasantness often includes an "edge" to the sound which can be mistaken for greater detail. When they break in fully, the edge goes away leaving behind greater resolution and subtlety - a smoother sound. It's been most audible with tape sources, I believe because they deliver the highest potential resolution.
Just two theories as alternates to the (this cap just sucks" theory.
You might try taking the bypass off - sometimes they do more harm than good, and predicting when seems impossible.
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I noticed improvements along the same lines with mine and a slight looseness in bass with a kind of funny buzz to occasional bass notes on some jazz recordings I thought my headphones might even be damaged this all tightened up after about 60hrs and the buzz became more defined and developed into a resonance sound from a plucked double bass string wow!
I have been very pleased with the JFX film caps and the improvements they given.
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So if you upgrade to bigger caps than the default ones, what advantage does it make?
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When i first installed the .1uf Russian teflons into my S.E.X. amp i noticed a distinctly unpleasant resonance in the range of cymbols and other percussion instruments making them sound harsh and distorted. It did go went away with some use.
Interestingly with the 1.5uf Mundorfs i never noticed any
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Free,
The reason to upgrade is getting a better sounding cap in there. The stock electrolytic has a lot of capacitance for its size. The film replacements are a whole 'nother animal. They are larger for the capacitance value but much better sounding.
Try breaking them in before you install them. Put them across an amplifier's speaker leads at a normal volume level for a week. This will put a greater current through them than when used as a coupling cap.
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When i first installed the .1uf Russian teflons into my S.E.X. amp i noticed a distinctly unpleasant resonance in the range of cymbals and other percussion instruments making them sound harsh and distorted. It took about a week of daily use for that to go away, and they were pre burnt for a week as per Graingers advice.
Interestingly with the 1.5uf Mundorf output caps i never noticed any change from them, they were instantly clearer and more transparent and haven't seem to have change over time.
I do find it odd this whole burn in phenomenon, i've even seen similar changes from amps after replacing all the resistors, or anything freshly built never sounds right until you leave it running for some hours. I'm not quite ready to believe cables need burnt in, but there is something mysterious going on i dont understand.
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Grainger49,
so because of the smaller energy density they are bigger, ah ok. You say "The film replacements are a whole 'nother animal." do you mean in terms of sound? There must be reviews using these caps, can you point me to these reviews?
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Free,
[...]
Try breaking them in before you install them. Put them across an amplifier's speaker leads at a normal volume level for a week. This will put a greater current through them than when used as a coupling cap.
+4/8ohms resistance in series or just the cap you think?
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If the amp has feedback, the series resistor is probably prudent.
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Ok this has been a lot harder to put down than I first thought but here some impressions on the JFX film capacitors I fitted to my BHCrack.
BHCrack+Speedball+Valab+JFX film capacitors
Tubes Tung-Sol 5998 & Mullard 12au7
Headphones Beyerdynamic Tesla T1
The instantly most noticeable change to the sound has been clarity and it is really hard to put this into words just how much this has improved it is also a bit mind bending to think it wasn’t so clear before.
A visualization might be looking out over a scene on a grey day and seeing an area that is bathed in a shaft of sunlight which makes everything sharper, colours pop out and shapes are more clearly defined and focused. Everything within the area of sunlight is just more vivid.
The perception of sound stage with the T1’s is not much wider than before but it now has greater depth and a smoother and more seamless feel to it. With the improved clarity I can look deeper into the soundstage and recording to focus on individual instruments within, this placement depth and resolution is very noticeable on live recordings.
For lack of better words music just flows better, it rises and falls as needed and washes over you with an effortlessness to the dynamics.
This is really hard to describe but its changed how the T1’s connect me with the music there is no more sense of viewing from say three rows back.
It feels much more like 'being there' I can be further back viewing a musical in a theatre listening to say Les Miserables taking in the whole scene or next find myself sitting across the table from Melody Gardot or Diana Krall, who are now singing just for me. On another track I am right on stage right in the middle of the mix with musicians to the left and right and behind enveloped in sound (this really was a first for me and an amazing “Holy Cow I am on the stage” moment, thank you Florence).
This all makes for an increased feel to the atmosphere and venue on live recordings as the music flows out and fills the venues and gives a sense of air as a beautiful solo vocal floats up high into the vaults of a cathedrals ceiling, it’s just beautiful to hear.
Pretty much all instruments sound better, the distortion of an electric guitar, brushes on drums, the little metal cymbals of a tambourine as they vibrate on both sides when shaken these little details keep coming through, plucks on strings the woodiness of instruments the bounce back on kick-drum or a sense of hollowness to an acoustic guitar or the density of the wood castanets are made of. The transparency of those subtle nuances of tones and textures draw you into the music. To many times just one more track turns into one more album way into the small hours of the morning.
The capacitors sonics have definitely improved as they burned in. I had a strange intermittent buzz noise in the lower frequencies on some jazz tracks I couldn’t quiet put my finger on what it was. It was just not right I wondered if my headphones had started to develop a problem with reproduction of the frequency. After about 60hrs this buzz has become more defined and developed into a thrum resonance sound from a plucked double bass string.
The T1’s are a fantastic headphones in many respects but I was very pleased to hear after about 100hrs a welcome hint of soulfulness develop in the midrange and just a little more warmth, body and loveliness to vocals which I think they are the better for.
The T1’s have scaled well with the addition of the film caps and I continue to be amazed by the reproduction of music I listen to and those out of headphone experiences that catch you by surprise have become much more frequent. I have been very pleased with the results of fitting the film caps.
I hope some of this makes a little sense.
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Grainger49,
. . . You say "The film replacements are a whole 'nother animal." do you mean in terms of sound?
Good film caps are much different than electrolytics. To start with, most electrolytics have a polarity. Film caps don't.
They are made with very different technologies. For instance you can get a good 3300uF 180V for ~$8, you can get a nice film 1.0uF 200V (film are usually higher voltages) for $14.50. That is 1/3300 smaller capacitance.
See, a whole 'nother animal.
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For the objectivist re-cap burn-in a quick google search brought up this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/81355-capacitor-burn-break.html
You'l have to sign in to get the images.
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Grainger49,
. . . You say "The film replacements are a whole 'nother animal." do you mean in terms of sound?
Good film caps are much different than electrolytics. To start with, most electrolytics have a polarity. Film caps don't.
They are made with very different technologies. For instance you can get a good 3300uF 180V for ~$8, you can get a nice film 1.0uF 200V (film are usually higher voltages) for $14.50. That is 1/3300 smaller capacitance.
See, a whole 'nother animal.
2673 to be precise, but yeah, didn't thought it would be such a diff. Usually caps have the problem of having a very low energy density. Even the best ones have like 10x less than a battery but they can be recharged very quickly over 500k times.
Just read what JamieMcC posted, interesting. Also read some specs (http://www.jbcapacitors.com/pdf/JFX-Premium-Metallized-Polypropylene-Film-Capacitors-Axial.pdf). From what I understand film caps are sensitive and may improve sound. Have yet to hear it myself.
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Just stumbled across these wet tantalums on Mouser :o
http://ie.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay/XTV157T270P0L/?Vishay/XTV157T270P0L/&qs=sGAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22fK3z/K%252bskJOcMtwYwZ%252bODI= (http://ie.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay/XTV157T270P0L/?Vishay/XTV157T270P0L/&qs=sGAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22fK3z/K%252bskJOcMtwYwZ%252bODI=)
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Tantalum capacitors generally have more measurable distortion than electrolytics, so they are generally avoided in the signal path.
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Well I suppose it was inevitable I have had a JFX 2.2uF 250V Polypropylene Film cap that has been sitting in my parts box for a while now (I brought it at the same time as the 100uf films as it only cost £1.72) and ended up soldering it in as film bypass cap across the last electrolytic filter cap in the Crack earlier today.
I feel there has been a slight improvement in fluidity and presence a touch more body to vocals and also the top end has slightly more crispness to the shimmers and tinkles without importantly for me adding any brightness.
It now opens up a can of worms with respect to trying something like a PIO or SIO or further bypassing of the current bypassing cap with a smaller Teflon.
I will let the cap burn in for a week or two in situ while I mull over which options to have fun experimenting with next.
(https://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/1031351/width/900/height/675/flags/LL)
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Not sure if this has been posted before but its an interesting read. For anybody just interested in power supply or coupling caps you can probably just skip to part 5 or 6.
Capacitor Sound Series: http://www.scribd.com/doc/2610442/capacitor-sound (http://www.scribd.com/doc/2610442/capacitor-sound)
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Hi guys!
I am new to this whole cap thing
Would these be an upgrade tomthe stock caps?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4pcs-NEW-BC-PHILIPS-043-100UF-250V-21x38mm-L-Life-HI-END-AXIAL-CAP-FOR-AUDIO-/171303408745?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27e27a9469
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No not really, they are still electrolytic capacitors. Those bi-polar styles are basically two capacitors end to end inside a single package so they probably sound worse.
I wouldn't bother replacing the stock caps with anything unless they were Polypropylene film, easy to spot as they will be huge!
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Thanks.
I try finding an "ideal" upgrade cap to the stock. Not easy.
Basically I dont want anything to get worse than stock, then just add more clarity from mids and up.
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Hi guys!
I am new to this whole cap thing
Would these be an upgrade tomthe stock caps?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4pcs-NEW-BC-PHILIPS-043-100UF-250V-21x38mm-L-Life-HI-END-AXIAL-CAP-FOR-AUDIO-/171303408745?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27e27a9469
Which cap are you going to replace? Recommendations vary depending on which.
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@Grainger
It seems that the most audible difference would be upgrade the output caps,
so Ill start there.
Happy to hear Your thoughts
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A rough guide for a pair of capacitors
$10 or less you could try adding 1uf film bypass to the electrolytic capacitors
$30 approx and a little time spent ebay hunting you will find standard 100uf film capacitors used/surplus
$60-$100 and ever upwards new branded audio film capacitors
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Thanks Jamie.
It looks like a Mundorf MCap 250v 100uF bypassed by a Mundorf Supreme 1uF
would be sweet.
Any thoughts?
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The output caps are a large value. I agree with Mcandmar, another electrolytic won't get you where you should be.
What you are looking for is a film cap. Daytons are inexpensive for that value and voltage rating. They will make an appreciable difference in the sound.
Do a search and read this thread, you will find a pretty good list of film caps available that will make an appreciable difference. (I don't have a Crack, so haven't done this myself)
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Thanks Jamie.
It looks like a Mundorf MCap 250v 100uF bypassed by a Mundorf Supreme 1uF
would be sweet.
Any thoughts?
Yes, that's a very nice option. I have the Mundorf MCap 100uF, but bypassed with a 1uF Jantzen Superior Z-Cap. A big step up from the stock electrolytics.
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Thanks.
Guess Ill order me some of them Mundorfs:)
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Done. Now the wait ::)
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I have done some research now.
I understand that these Mundorf film capacitors are supposedly
not polarized.
Nevertheless some people seem to agree upon that the outer layer should be connected toward the amplifier end and the inner end towards the output for the least possible noise.
Do any of You know how You can tell which side is which?
I do not possess an oscilloscope.
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If its any help this is a post I had remembered seeing which was said to originate from Mundorf.
"In general the outer foil of Mundorf capacitors is on the left hand side.
So the flow of the signal should be same as the flow of the text."
"Capacitors with SUPREME winding technology are wound fully symmetrically
and hence directivity-free (see: www.mundorf.com/Supreme.pdf)."
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Thanks Jamie!
Yes, that definitely helps.
It also fits with "a german way" to do things. Very systematic.
I know, I lived there for 7 years.
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My RTI caps are the same with the signal in the direction the text is read so in on left side and out to the right.
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Does anyone know which of the affordable film caps are the smallest? I'll be short on space and want the smallest films possible. So far it seems like it's the 100uF Janzen or JFX caps.
Also, how do you order from the JFX cap's website? It's so archaic. I didn't even see any prices.
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Does anyone know which of the affordable film caps are the smallest? I'll be short on space and want the smallest films possible. So far it seems like it's the 100uF Janzen or JFX caps.
Also, how do you order from the JFX cap's website? It's so archaic. I didn't even see any prices.
The Erse Pulse are the exact same size as the JFX and I believe made by the same company. The JFX go in with ease by the way, If space is restricted you could always consider fitting a smaller value capacitor 75, 80, 90uf
I have some jfx fitted in mine.
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,5284.0.html
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Yeah, the Erse caps were going to be the ones I purchased, but they're out of stock and back-ordered according to the website. I sent Erse an email a week ago and still haven't heard back. :(
First the 100uF Axons disappear, now the 100uF Erse. Dumb luck for me I suppose.
According to documents online the Erse caps appear to be 6mm longer than the JFX caps anyway, so JFX it is.
How did you order your JFX caps and how much were they if you don't mind me asking?
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I'm not sure where you are based but this is where I ordered my JFX from in the UK.
http://www.audiocap.co.uk/
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D'oh. I'm in the U.S...
Ahh screw it. I'm just going to run some 51uF Axons in parallel. The price is right and the size will be perfect. ;D
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I did see some 100uf pre owned Solen's on ebay in the US
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D'oh. I'm in the U.S...
Dollars work on those sites, they are just worth less.
Shoot! I order from the USSR, Hong Kong, China & Taiwan. Why not someone who almost speaks the same language?
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Oh, it has nothing to do with patriotism. It has to do with price! I'm a cheapskate. :P
I ended up ordering four 51uF Axon caps for what will probably be about $45 shipped. The size ended up working well too leaving me the necessary room to place a pilot light and relocating the power switch towards the front of the chassis.
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Another quick question, I know these big polypro caps are bipolar/axial so there's no real positive or negative.
However, I read somewhere around this forum that while they are axial there is a sort of traditional "positive" and "negative" end going the direction of the text left to right where the foil starts or something like that.
Is there any merit to this and if so would the left or right be the "positive" end?
Edit: nevermind. The info I was looking for was 8 or so posts above mine. I'm having one of those days today. :P
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I am going to be upgrading my output capacitors and doing a smaller bypass cap. However, I had bought a 0.1uF Mundorf Silver|Gold+Oil for the bypass cap use and I am seeing a lot of people on this site are going with values closer to 1uF. I also happen to have some 2.7uF Mundorf Aluminum+Oil here, would it be better to use the 2.7's or the higher quality 0.1 capacitors for the bypass? Or should I hold off and get some 1uF capacitors to use?
The larger output cap will be staying stock for a little while longer until I do a couple other mods, and once I know how much space I have left I will be replacing them with either some 100uF F&T electrolytic's or some 85uF Clarity film caps if I have enough room.
One more question for output capacitors that will probably be really crazy, but just wanted to ask about before I give it a try. I know that capacitors in series block DC, but can pass AC if the frequency is high enough. Smaller values of a capacitor can "bleed through" more frequencies. So my crazy idea is, what if I used a silver mica capacitors in series on each channel right before the headphone out, in the range of something like 0.0001uF so that pretty much all the frequencies could get through (probably cutoff at 10Hz or lower) but would help to block out any remaining DC voltage that is still around? Would that idea even work at all? Do you think it would sound absolutely horrible? Is every little bit of DC filtered out by that point anyway so it is useless? I am thinking of trying it out just to satisfy my curiosity, and the experiment can always be undone afterwards anyway. I just wanted to ask about my idea first in case it would make the amp explode or something (lol) if I were to ever try it.
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Capacitors in parallel add. You bypass by putting the capacitors in parallel so you are passing lower frequencies, one or two Hz, using a larger capacitance.
As for bleeding, this happens at startup. As the capacitor(s) charge a small amount of the DC voltage bleeds through. That is the function of the resistors on the output jack. There is also a sticky in the Crack folder that describes a way to make that voltage even lower.
You don't want to put anything in series with the output capacitors. It will block a lot more frequencies.
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I think you have the wrong idea about caps in series and blocking DC. The main purpose of the output cap is to block the DC and allow the music (AC) thru. Any decent cap will do an effective job blocking the DC but has to be sized to allow the low notes to pass. your idea of inserting a very small cap in series will block all but the most extreme high frequencies...John
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Has anyone here attempted to replace the two coupling caps with two Solen 100uf 400v mkp? Also any reccomandations on a film cap to replace the last electrolytic in the power supply?
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Forgot to mention I'll be replacing the last resistor in the power supply with a triad c7x choke. If I understand correctly this means I can use a lower uf capacitor, but it shouldn't be any lower than my coupling caps, so I'd be looking for 100uf ideally. I'm still kind of new to this and I've done hours of reading at this point still trying to fine tune my understand.
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Zachary,
A number of Bottleheads have used the C7X in the Crack. Not everybody availed themselves of the opportunity to upgrade the last cap with film. Do a quick search and you will find several different values for that final cap.
IMHO, going to film is a good step up. Going to a designer film, high $, isn't necessary.
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Grainger,
Thanks for the reply. I think I'll stick with my Solens and fit them in as my coupling caps. I agree, it seems that capacitor prices are here to remind us just how diminishing the returns can become :D
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There is no "Like" so:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg7%2FGrainger49%2FSmiles%2Fthumbsup_zps4d4312f2.gif&hash=fcc4a0e009432b061e176ccb2802f87dcbbe185c)
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So as part of my massive no holds barred upgrade to the Crack I am upgrading the output coupling caps and one or two of the filtering caps to film. I am wondering if anyone knows the sound difference or an opinion on which is better between the Mundorf MKP and aluminum EVO capacitors? They are the exact same price for 150uf capacitors. The MKP description talks about things like low loss factor, but then there is a ZN series (that doesnt go high enough uF) that in their description talks about having a loss factor 10x lower than the MKP's! So are they really very good? Maybe the EVO's are better? I dont really know because I cant find much info and descriptions for the EVO series. Another thought would be to use Clarity Cap 175uF TC600 capacitors, that specifically list an ESR of 1mOhm and low ESL. I was planning on using these Clarity caps for the PSU filtering but maybe I should just use them for both tasks? Model numbers are:
MUNDORF-71347 <- MKP series
MUNDORF-76417 <- EVO aluminum series
CLARITY-77666 <- TC600 series
Also when I move from 100 to 150Uf, should I leave the output jack resistors at 2.5k or drop down to a bit lower?
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Also when I move from 100 to 150Uf, should I leave the output jack resistors at 2.5k or drop down to a bit lower?
The -3dB point moves by 3 Hz going from 100uF to 150uF (not worth it), and the size difference between those caps will be huge (really not worth it), and the 2.49K resistors won't be a good value.
-PB
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(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi244.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg7%2FGrainger49%2FSmiles%2FROLF.gif&hash=d8c25de5059c9863b539eef0d5a5f9c5fb975e51)
Funny, and it puts it in perspective. Those 3 Hz might be one note, but I doubt it.
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I recently picked up some 100uf and 150uf JFX poly caps on eBay, curious thing is both are 50mm diameter but the 150uf is exactly twice the length of the 100uf. My brain is having a hard time trying to rationalize that one..
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I think the value of the capacitance is relative to the area. They decided to make the plates taller rather than wider before rolling into a tube.
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Well, received shipping notice for my Speedball this morning ;D
I now have quite a few upgrades coming, but was a little hesitant to order output caps. Firstly, I suspect the difference after the Speedball install will really be minimal, and secondly, I don't really know which caps I would prefer ("different spices" as per Grainger).
Was going to order the Mundorf M-Caps, but reread the capacitor review at http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html and did a quick ebay Germany search for the Jantzen Cross Cap. Found the Cross Cap for a third of the price of the M-Caps. Don't think the M-Caps will sound 3 times better, so I have 2 of the Jantzens incoming.
Once those are mounted, I think the only non-upgraded parts in my Crack will be the tubes, top-plate, transformer, and PSU caps...Literally everything else either has been or is in the process of being upgraded.
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The Speedball should be one of the largest sonic improvements you will make. It has been in everything I have put a C4S into. Next will be improving the capacitor that the signal passes through at the output. IMHO.
So, enjoy!
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I still need to decide on the sequence of implementing the improvements. Currently the Crack is stripped down. I needed some new cloth wire (as it does not take kindly to being twisted with a drill) and USPS still hasn't updated the shipping status a month after the label was created. Once I receive that, the build can progress further.
Updates that will affect the sound that are all incoming are:
Schottky diodes (saw richmi's build and they were cheap)
Output caps (everyone needs big caps 8))
Speedball (since this will make the biggest difference, definitely interested)
Triad C-7X (after all of the above, I figured, why not?)
Buildwise, I am not sure yet which upgrades will go in first, but Speedball will go in before the output caps. Everything else is still up in the air. Any suggestions on a preferred order?
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I have just rebuilt my Crack. Here is a list of the things that I upgraded after the original Crack build.
-New 7 X 10 top plate so that all of these items can fit without being overly crowded", the main reason for the rebuild, and was able to reuse my burl top
-Speedball
-silver/gold input wire (could not believe the difference this made, only need 24")
-Goldpoint attenuator (IMHO the first thing that should be change in any bottlehead kit, usually install dual mono Khozmo attenuators for the 48 steps and balance control)
-output caps 108uf (used paralleled 54uf aerovox caps)
-power supply cap 108uf (used what I had on hand, same paralleled caps as output caps) and CX-7 choke, started out with a 47uF solen, then 4 22uF solens, sound seemed to improve with each increase in uF, but could have been just wish full thinking
-Cree schottky diodes (do not believe that this is necessary, but usually install them in all of my builds anyway, just covering all angles)
Hope this helps, the stock Crack is a very good amp, but with these mods it is just amazing.
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Awesome!
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Lee,
Are you telling me you rebuilt the "Custom Crack" of yours? That is a phenomenal build...can't wait to see how it looks now.
I am just thinking about an upgrade path that will make me notice differences of each individual upgrade. Generally I am sceptical of hearing differences, but I plan on upgrading a certain part, maybe listening for an hour or two, upgrading another part and so on.
Speedball will most likely make the biggest sonic difference. Installing the Schottky's early on will be much easier than installing them at a later stage. Thus, still need to plan the build out a little so that ease of installation is maintained and sonic upgrades are noticeable.
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I just grabbed these two from Hifi Collective. The price is very good at the moment.
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I just grabbed these two from Hifi Collective. The price is very good at the moment.
nice ;D I nearly bought those once :)
I have the standard 100uf mcaps and like them quite alot but I haven't tried any other nice film caps , I did reinstall the standard caps to see if I could hear a sound difference and I could def hear a difference. the mcaps do make the amp sound better and even better with burn in I think
I bypassed them few months ago with small Mundorf MCap Supremes and that changed the sound again ,
The sound does change and get better with burn in dont it?
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Grabbed these a while back for the power supply. I'm on an extremely super slow build while I work on other things and wait for sales on upgraded components. For some reason the crack is compelling me to buy these components. I probably need help. ;D
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Grabbed these a while back for the power supply. I'm on an extremely super slow build while I work on other things and wait for sales on upgraded components. For some reason the crack is compelling me to buy these components. I probably need help. ;D
That one surely belongs on the Capacitor Porn thread ;D
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=4744.msg61116#msg61116
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I agree, capacitor porn. I posted a pair that were bought for my Paramours. They are the volume of 3/5 of the underside of the amps. Unusable unless outside the amps.
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I actually have three of those. I posted them back in capacitor porn before the forum update but somehow the photos got lost.
Also grabbed two hammond 159 chokes. ;D
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I didn't realize what was below the caps till I clicked on the picture. Those are much bigger than the ones I got for my Paramours.
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Just received the Jantzen Cross Cap 100uf 400V. The diameter of these is too large to mount them to the chassis top-plate so I will need to either make an alternate plan (perhaps using standoffs with a mounting plate) or just buy other caps. Guess the cost will be roughly similar.
Anyway, we don't have soda cans in the house, but have a 500ml Vitamin Water bottle for comparison.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYeLgBWl.jpg&hash=1c7c495c07d21133bbfc700ad6c3279772d03d49)
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A zip tie through a zip tie holder attached to the inside of the wooden base might do the trick!
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I thought the same thing, but am not really that keen on attaching anything to the base itself. I will need to remove zip ties every time I pick up the top plate, and I quite frequently go under the hood of my Crack.
Mike has provided an excellent idea in his thread - http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=1632.15. I could also use terminal strips and then accomplish the same goal. The caps are pretty light so letting them hang on their leads should be ok.
Another option would be to use one zip tie around the cap, with a 2nd zip tie between the prior zip tie and the cap. Then thread the 2nd zip tie through a zip tie mount on the top plate. Difficult to explain, but the 2nd zip tie will just be used to hang the cap on. Thus, the cap will not be firmly affixed until the leads are soldered in place, but the weight of the cap will be borne by the mount and not the leads. However, by hanging the caps this way, the clearance issue with the Speedball may be avoided.
In any case, these were cheap caps and based on some other recommendations, I could install 47uf caps in that position and not lose too much low-end. That will solve a lot of my real-estate problems.
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Just bypassed my 100uf Solen mkp coupling caps with a 1uf 250vdc kommiekap K73-11 PETP, which I then bypassed with vishay-roederstein mkp 1837 .1 uf, 160vdc caps.
First listen I hear better separation of the instruments, better bass extension with more realistic feel, and a touch more smoothness to the mids in the best way. Can't wait to let them fully burn in.
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And today I replaced the last electrolytic with an obbligato PSU film cap, 100uf (I already have a choke installed). Debating whether to now bypass the remaining two electrolytics with 2.2uf chinafilm caps, and bypass the obbligato with a higher quality, small value Teflon.
Upgraditis is a Helluva disease.
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It's an awesome to find this 'capasitor rolling' in here. Iam a newbie, very enjoy my crack(stock) in a year. Looking for take some upgrade with capasitor for its first. Have read many reviews, mundorf cap got many good reviews. Plan to buy mcap 100uf 400v & supreme 1uf(how about supreme silver-gold-oil, very expensive, is that worth?)BEFORE.
After reading on this, i got Mundorf cap are "overprice" in generally line up. Can anyone help to choose for me the caps with same or even better than mundorf with cheaper price? Or Mundorf worth in their price?
Thank You
Colin
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It's an awesome to find this 'capasitor rolling' in here. Iam a newbie, very enjoy my crack(stock) in a year. Looking for take some upgrade with capasitor for its first. Have read many reviews, mundorf cap got many good reviews. Plan to buy mcap 100uf 400v & supreme 1uf(how about supreme silver-gold-oil, very expensive, is that worth?)BEFORE.
After reading on this, i got Mundorf cap are "overprice" in generally line up. Can anyone help to choose for me the caps with same or even better than mundorf with cheaper price? Or Mundorf worth in their price?
Thank You
Colin
I had some Mundorf Mcap 100uf 400v capacitors in my Crack for a while they are very nice sounding capacitors I picked mine up used for half the retail cost at the time off of ebay. The two disadvantages with them are their size they are significantly bigger than the 250V version and space in the Crack is limited in addition cost of buying them new is expensive.
Performance wise I thought both budget Solen and JFX with a inexpensive Russian Teflon bypass sounded very similar and more preferable to my ears at least. I did think the Mundorfs where one of top sounding standalone MKP caps I tried. With my own cap swapping adventures I found I developed a personal preference for the paper in oil type.
For consideration Parts connection are still running a promotion on the Claritycap PX100uf 250v 52% off but they are big beasts so some careful measuring would be required to check they fit http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_claritycap_px.html)
Some posts on my cap rolling adventures below.
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=5284.msg50963#msg50963
Some food for thought while the Mundorf are very good for a similar budget you could seriously hot rod your Crack with a budget 100uf film cap and Teflon bypass + stepped attenuator + choke power supply mod + film cap in powers supply, which ends up looking something like the pic below and sounds amazing.
If you don't mind waiting and doing a little hunting on ebay etc you can pick up some bargains. Like this ASC 200uf film capacitor for 0.99p ;)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Large-200uf-400VDC-300VAC-Foil-Capacitor-EC-Capacitors-New-and-Unused-/231438541917?rmvSB=true&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=oab3YTcegYaD4KrLU5J1AY0q4BA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.ebaystatic.com%2Fd%2Fl140%2Fpict%2F231438541917_0.jpg&hash=483cc6062f2a9c04e70959f6d2374d07ff69db4f)
Have fun :)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2F4%2F4a%2F4a710ac6_003.jpeg&hash=d5a416be9669220a9078837af8558e9cb5816fd5)
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Thank you JamieMcc. Great from seeing your reply. How about clarity cap px 100uf 250v bypass by mundorf supreme 1uf? Bypass cap must 1 : 100 value? Shoulf telflon bypass would an advantage?
1more confuse question, my friend told me to add a pair caps for coupling between pot to rca, is that true way? I see that should give resistors in here not caps. Thank you
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If you felt you needed to or wanted just to try bypassing the clarity cap then I would go straight for a Russian Teflon which seems a well trodden path by Crack users. The 100:1 rule seems more for guidance sometimes bypassing doesn't work its just a case of trial and error to find combinations that do. Also a non Russian Teflon is hideously expensive around $300+ for 1uf! While the Russian ones may not be on par they do work and at a fraction of the cost are fun to try.
I have had some nice results with these ones you can find larger uf values but the size also increase quiet dramatically with the larger values.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-056uF-500V-5-TEFLON-Capacitors-K72P6-Lot-of-4-/201318145383?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2edf7f1d67
I have never seen capacitors between the pot and rca's on any Cracks resistors are sometimes used to attenuate and lower the volume so their is more range of adjustment on the volume pot before comfortable listening levels are exceeded.
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Because bypass caps don't always sound just right I always suggest putting them in with jumpers (alligator clips and a short wire) first. That would allow you to try 3 or 4 different caps before turning on the soldering iron.
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Has anyone experience of bypassing the 100uf output capacitors with a much smaller .1uf or .01uf capacitor?
I was considering going with a 1/100 1uf bypass but I don't think I have the room in the case for the type I want, a high quality AmpOhm Polyester Film. I could fit a lower quality 1uf bypass and bypass that with an even small high quality .01uf or I could just use a single high quality .1uf bypass.
Any opinions on which would be the better option? My output caps are already polyprops.
Cheers
I tried some 100nf poly-p caps across the stock +/-'s. There was a change for sure, and they're still there whilst I sort out getting round to ordering some M-Caps or whatever, so they're not ruined my enjoyment.
I'm sure you'll find somewhere else to use them if you don't like it anyway :)
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I tried some 100nf poly-p caps across the stock +/-'s. There was a change for sure, and they're still there whilst I sort out getting round to ordering some M-Caps or whatever, so they're not ruined my enjoyment.
I'm sure you'll find somewhere else to use them if you don't like it anyway :)
Oops - skipped back in the thread somewhat further than I thought!
4 years later I reply ::)
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I just finished adding some Mundorf film caps (MKP 100uf 250v) to my crack and I thought I'd post some pics in case it helps someone else. I debated how to mount them and then followed someone else's lead and built some stands. I got a small polycarbonate sheet from Lowes and a knife to cut it. I cut it into a single strip and then cut that into 6 squares. I used some Loctite epoxy to glue three squares together to make each stand. After that dried, I scraped the double sided tape off of a pair of zip tie cable mounts and glued them to the stands with the same epoxy. Once dry I mounted the caps and then glued the stands to the Crack making sure they would clear the sides when it went back together.
Pretty simple really...making the stands is by far the most time consuming aspect of the swap.
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I just finished adding some Mundorf film caps (MKP 100uf 250v) to my crack and I thought I'd post some pics in case it helps someone else. I debated how to mount them and then followed someone else's lead and built some stands. I got a small polycarbonate sheet from Lowes and a knife to cut it. I cut it into a single strip and then cut that into 6 squares. I used some Loctite epoxy to glue three squares together to make each stand. After that dried, I scraped the double sided tape off of a pair of zip tie cable mounts and glued them to the stands with the same epoxy. Once dry I mounted the caps and then glued the stands to the Crack making sure they would clear the sides when it went back together.
Pretty simple really...making the stands is by far the most time consuming aspect of the swap.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi71.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi129%2Fmhibbs%2F20151219_150019_zpsgb0n0ftl.jpg&hash=5b695512b754bc1e0b3cca3fae808abf383e173b)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi71.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi129%2Fmhibbs%2F20151219_150029_zpsnxpyeoov.jpg&hash=a8d7da5835b0109e21a66ddeda43ade9fd9f1af6)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi71.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi129%2Fmhibbs%2F20151219_150040_zpsrnd7j7uz.jpg&hash=0ccf802b469065cdc993e42e064742240581da44)
Very helpful, thanks for sharing - this is next on my agenda.
How was your personal experience with the swap?
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Like properlydeafened I have replaced the Crack output caps with Mundorf MKP 100uF caps and this post will be somewhat redundant.
I burned-in these caps using a Gainclone amp for a full 8 days (about 200 hours) before putting them in.
I very much like what these have done to my HD600s. If there is the "Senn Veil" (and there is), then these caps have lifted it and I have discovered a deeper, more prominent bass and cymbals that sound like cymbals. Brushes on the drum head, the wood of the doublebass, and the breath of the trumpet are right.
I'm glad I did this.
Here are a couple of pics (I did this late at night and put a burn mark on the left channel!)
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Bypassing the standard electrolytics costs about 1/10th of the price of film caps.
Would just bypassing do anything positive for the sound? Using Russian K75-10 and/or FT-3 caps.
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Bypassing the standard electrolytics costs about 1/10th of the price of film caps.
Would just bypassing do anything positive for the sound? Using Russian K75-10 and/or FT-3 caps.
The caps you mention only cost about the same as a fancy cup of coffee. I have used them as bypasses for films and found they made a very noticeable difference but have not tried them as bypasses to the stock electrolytic caps. If you a are patient 100uf films often turn up on ebay old stock or used etc for a fraction of their cost new.
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Thanks for the reply.
I see you've done a bit of cap rolling yourself.
What is your preferred cap combination? How do the Russians compare to other bypass caps?
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Thanks for the reply.
I see you've done a bit of cap rolling yourself.
What is your preferred cap combination? How do the Russians compare to other bypass caps?
The Russians worked well but its a subjective subject and not all combinations are going to work so it is very much a case of trial and error.
I have a couple of favourite cap combinations which are not *audio caps*. On of my favourite combos are these mgbo pio with Teflon bypasses (thanks Geary for the inspiration) total cost was about £20 I found them preferable to a pair of Mundorfs which cost £80 a pair!
Something to think about is that the teflons take simply ages to burn in before revelling their true nature 200-500hrs is not uncommon.
With the Russian caps getting them to fit in the Crack is a challenge. If you don't want to experiment have the budget then get the Mundorf MKP these are a cut above the likes of budget Solen, JFX, Dayton, (I have tried them) but if you add a Teflon bypass to the budget caps it can bring them much closer to or even preferable to the Mundorfs.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2F6%2F6e%2F900x900px-LL-6ebf43ea_0023.jpeg&hash=571a1508b9aba5014e58ce30d12e17b4bb5af388)
Most of these have been tried in the Crack at one time or another.
(https://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/1163600/width/350/height/700/flags/LL)
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Thanks for the reply! As a student money is limited (Crack is great for the price!).
For now i left the space for Ansar caps (supposed to be good caps). This includes one 220uf for the PS.
These will fit nicely with the CLCLC setup in there now.
The price of these with Russian PIO/teflon bypass will be +- £150 (output + PS).
Building a new case for the Russian MBGO-2's will be a challenge but at a total of £50 it fits my budget.
Edit: Forgot the PS is 250V. The MBGO's are only 160V. So i'd need another for the PS.
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Best bang for your buck are Solen MKP @ $29 each from partsconnexion. Or if your in Europe the JB JFX series or Mundorf MCap @ £29 each from hificollective. All of which are available with a 250v rating so you will have no issues fitting them into a stock enclosure.
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Ansar 100uf/160v L=57mm*D=49mm. Price is comparable to the Mundorf Mcap Evo 100uf.
220uf/250V PS cap L=87mm*D=60mm for about £50.
That's why those are my first choice. They fit the enclosure easily and leave enough room (but not the budget) for Russian bypass caps.
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In that case might i suggest buying Solen caps directly from http://solen.ca/product-category/capacitors/fast-capacitors-250v-pa-series-metallized-polypropylene/ (http://solen.ca/product-category/capacitors/fast-capacitors-250v-pa-series-metallized-polypropylene/). Two 100uf and one 220uf 250v cap works out at $190 inc shipping, which is £95.
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That's sure cheap but i'm in Europe. So American caps would add +30-50% for tax and customs.
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The operating voltage of the MBGO-2 caps is 160v.
Would it be a problem using these as the last PS cap?
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Thanks for the reply! As a student money is limited (Crack is great for the price!).
For now i left the space for Ansar caps (supposed to be good caps). This includes one 220uf for the PS.
These will fit nicely with the CLCLC setup in there now.
The price of these with Russian PIO/teflon bypass will be +- £150 (output + PS).
Building a new case for the Russian MBGO-2's will be a challenge but at a total of £50 it fits my budget.
Edit: Forgot the PS is 250V. The MBGO's are only 160V. So i'd need another for the PS.
This is how Geary fitted the mbgo capacitors in his Crack in the output position its one of my favourites as well
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FvTQTH1Q.jpg%3F1&hash=fd71624c092c659c987e45be9e15379be52ef8f7)
The operating voltage of the MBGO-2 caps is 160v.
Would it be a problem using these as the last PS cap?
Yes you want to stick with a voltage equal to or greater than the capacitors you are replacing take a look at the choke mod as it will allow you to reduce the uf value of that last power supply cap allowing a smaller and easier to fit capacitor to be used you should then with some planning still be able to get it in a stock Crack enclosure by only perhaps adding some feet to raise it up a little bit. The choke runs to around $15 and then you should be use a much smaller film capacitor in the 50uf-100uf range.
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=6030.0
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Thanks for that! Inspiring.
I'm also planning on making an extra level with an alloy plate in the crack.
Already did that above the PSU for a CLCLC using extended bolts for the transformer (mounting 2 chokes in crack is tight).
I'll now make the crack 15cm vs the normal 8cm tall. And add the caps (180uf for the last PSU cap) and 2x 90uf for the output. A little more actually with the bypass caps.
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A Speedballed Crack plus £200 worth of cap upgrade and extra chokes runs pretty close to the price of a Crackatwoa. I mention this because the Crack with extra caps and chokes will still not perform as well as a Crackatwoa with its shunt regulated power supply. In this particular case you are already deep into the project so I understand your wanting to continue the mod process. But for anyone who is reading this with the idea of buying a Crack and modding it in the future I would suggest considering a Crackatwoa as another possibility.
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I considered crack vs S.E.X (there was no crackatwo back then) and ended up with crack because of the possible mods. It's all about the journey for me.
Edit: Measured again and again. Found out 6 30uf caps won't fit for the PSU. So only 4 will have to do.
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A Speedballed Crack plus £200 worth of cap upgrade and extra chokes runs pretty close to the price of a Crackatwoa. I mention this because the Crack with extra caps and chokes will still not perform as well as a Crackatwoa with its shunt regulated power supply. In this particular case you are already deep into the project so I understand your wanting to continue the mod process. But for anyone who is reading this with the idea of buying a Crack and modding it in the future I would suggest considering a Crackatwoa as another possibility.
And then you can start modding the Crackatwoa! ;D
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The operating voltage of the MBGO-2 caps is 160v.
Would it be a problem using these as the last PS cap?
Bad idea!
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Did some further reading on this matter. Thanks PB.
Will not use these in the PSU. Now i just have to find one that will work.
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So I installed a choke and later replaced the last power supply capacitor with a 250v/100uF film capacitor. I like the results and much prefer it to just using a bypass on the stock electrolytic, which I felt degraded the sound somewhat.
Yesterday, just before finishing up, I experimented with bypassing this last 100uF film cap in the power supply with a smaller, higher quality capacitor. Carefully using clip-leads to try some different options and listening closely. I first tried with a little cheap Russian teflon cap.
I also tried a Jupiter 1uF HT Beeswax Paper 600v. I know this is really getting into crazy boutique diminishing returns territory and, as Doc says, you have to be sensible about the price:performance ratio. But I do quite like the results and would like to stick with it. Am I crazy for feeling I hear an improvement ?
Can I please ask if it is okay to go ahead and permanently install a cap of this variety as a bypass ? As long as the cap's voltage rating is high enough, is this okay?
Also, it is rated at max temp of 70, whereas I think the stock electrolytic was rated at 85 degrees.
If anything, it seems as though post-speedball the Crack might be running even cooler than before. But I wanted to check I am not doing anything unwise.
Thank you
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It's fine to use as long as you make sure it isn't getting hot enough to melt the beeswax. That has been a problem in the distant past when using early Jupiter caps in a S.E.X. amp, but I don't recall anyone describing a similar problem using them in a Crack, as it would not be as likely an application. Crack does get pretty warm, so do keep an eye on it.
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Awesome thanks Doc!
I Will definitely keep an eye on it. I'll have it raised on a standoff so it'll be nearer the opening of the base so it should have slightly better airflow around it there and hopefully will be a bit cooler.
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I'd like to do some cap rolling (ordered 9 types of Russian bypass caps). Is there any recommended switch to be used for this? Or just use clips? Would be nice if i could switch bypass caps while playing music.
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I would suggest clipping or tacking them in one at a time as the most sensible approach.
If you decide to do the switch I'll suggest that you want the switch between the output end of the cap and the headphone jack, and that the out of circuit cap outputs get grounded when switched out of the circuit, ideally thru something like a 2.7K ohm resistor similar to the one on the headphone output. Make sure all of the cap inputs are attached to the plate voltage so they stay charged or you will get some nasty popping as they charge up when you throw the switch with the amp running, and also subject that poor switch to some gnarly inrush current. Also, no promises on what might happen to your headphones if something goes wrong.
In other words you want the caps to think they are in the live circuit even if they are not.
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As always, thanks Doc!
Even with those resistors it's still faster than clip ons.
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Faster, yes. Just want to be sure no headphones get damaged by a transient in the effort to get that quick change from one cap to the next. It's nice to A/B on the fly, but I happen to think it's also a really good exercise to listen with some time gap between the two samples being compared. I think it helps one to hone their listening skills quite a bit.
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Small follow up on the Russian MBGO's. Now about 80 hours in.
For the money (35€ shipped) they are really great! Big improvement over the stock electrolytics. Add a lot of depth to the music.
I went for 3x 30uf on each channel. Could have put an extra for each channel for lower impedance headphones but wanted the extra room for bypass caps and the PS cap upgrades.
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Small follow up on the Russian MBGO's. Now about 80 hours in.
For the money (35€ shipped) they are really great! Big improvement over the stock electrolytics. Add a lot of depth to the music.
I went for 3x 30uf on each channel. Could have put an extra for each channel for lower impedance headphones but wanted the extra room for bypass caps and the PS cap upgrades.
They work really well don't they you might also like to try adding a Russian Teflon bypass, I preferred this set up to the Mundorf mkp which have sat in my parts box ever since.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.head-fi.org%2F6%2F6e%2F900x900px-LL-6ebf43ea_0023.jpeg&hash=571a1508b9aba5014e58ce30d12e17b4bb5af388)
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Ordered a bunch of bypass caps. From the teflons i ordered ft-3 and k72. Also silver mica's and k40 k75pio's and kbg. Won't be at home for a few weeks so can't Connect them.
Edit: Thanks JamieMcC! The FT-3 make a great upgrade in addition to the standard MBGO-2's.
I can't hear a difference with the K75-10's as bypass for the last PSU cap.
I'll remove that one in a few weeks and see if i hear a difference then.
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This is what it looks like right now:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fep1.pinkbike.org%2Fp5pb13286728%2Fp5pb13286728.jpg&hash=8b8de9646fc6af9ddf0536e3ac1e8807e8c1b703)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fep1.pinkbike.org%2Fp5pb13286724%2Fp5pb13286724.jpg&hash=421246973dc11bbd679530f0da354943cbe107ba)
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Nice job I'm pleased the pio caps are working for you ;D They were a combination that I really liked after trying a good few options I think for the money they represent excellent value.
What's going on with your attenuators knob? I suspect you can adjust its height so it will sit flush with the top plate by winding up the nut below the top plate up a few turns.
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OK I am feeling a lot better about my own cap obsession now! 😇
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This is what it looks like right now:
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fep1.pinkbike.org%2Fp5pb13286728%2Fp5pb13286728.jpg&hash=8b8de9646fc6af9ddf0536e3ac1e8807e8c1b703)
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fep1.pinkbike.org%2Fp5pb13286724%2Fp5pb13286724.jpg&hash=421246973dc11bbd679530f0da354943cbe107ba)
Wow the size of that thing! I think you could use the extra space from crack2.
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Crack only grew a little taller. The footprint is the same. Even better, because of the new height i can strap the Schiit modi2u vertically behind the crack to gain some desk space.
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Bumping this old topic for a quick question:
100uF 350VDC Mundorf Evo Oil with a 1uF 1000VDC Mundorf Supreme Oil (can't seem to find lower VDC) as a bypass would work for the output capacitors?
asking before i order the wrong ones 8)
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Double bump ;D
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Yes, the combination will work just fine (if it fits).
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You don't need a bypass if the 100uf is already a film cap.
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Try to find the lowest possible voltage 100uF film cap you can use. You're paying a lot of money for that 350V rating, and they will likely be quite a bit larger than they look.
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350 seemed to be the lowest i could find locally, but will do some more research before i order
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You don't need a bypass if the 100uf is already a film cap.
Could you elaborate?
Say if I wanted to bypass a set of 100uF Evo Oils with a 1uF cap, would the 1uF cap's attributes not show?
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Could you elaborate?
Say if I wanted to bypass a set of 100uF Evo Oils with a 1uF cap, would the 1uF cap's attributes show?
Possibly. Or it could make it sound worse.
In the signal path electrolytics generally don't sound as good as a film cap. I'm not smart enough to explain why, it's just a phenomenon I've encountered as have other folks. That's not saying it won't work or even sound bad. Since the Crack has such a huge output cap it's cheaper to stock it as an electrolytic. Bypassing it may help smooth out the sound of the electrolytic but it's kind of a band-aid for a compromised situation. Swapping the electrolytic with a single film cap is IMO the best "upgrade" solution. No need for a bypass because it's no longer a compromised situation. Of course you're welcome to try adding the bypass and hear it for yourself. It's your money. ;)
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I didn't really notice much of the FT-3 teflon bypass when i put them in.
So after 1000+- hours (a few months later), i removed them. I immediately noticed something was missing.
This is with 90uf paper in oil caps for the output.
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A friend of mine gave me some vintage Russian NOS 1uF paper-in-oil caps for bypasses on my Crack's output caps, and a third for bypassing the last cap in the power supply (which I've replaced with a 100uF film cap). To my ears, there is better impact/slam but otherwise I don't hear much. I'm not complaining since I got them free but it's not something I'd spend my own money on.
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Hello!
Just installed some mundorf Mcap 100uf/250V and now the big board leds are all dim. Anyone else have this happen after output cap swap?
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Hello!
Just installed some mundorf Mcap 100uf/250V and now the big board leds are all dim. Anyone else have this happen after output cap swap?
I would recommend starting a new thread and posting your voltages. Dim LEDs don't really mean anything unless you measure the actual DC voltages. I bet you'll find some that aren't what they are supposed to be!
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Bit of a weird question here but, Ive ordered some film caps for my crack. I use the crack 50/50 as a headphone amp and as a pre-amp to my Sony power amp. My Sony is an old TA-3200f that I recapped. I carefully chose nice electrolytic nichicon caps. They are nice but probably not as nice as the film caps I'll be using in the crack. Question is (and this is probably unanswerable) how much of the capacitor work (or tube rolling for that matter) is being dilluted and or wasted down-path from the crack when I use it as a pre-amp? I looked into replacing the caps in the audio board on my Sony. It was all fine until I got to the largest 470 caps. I'd have to do bypasses on those.
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That would be something you would have to experiment with, since there can be a lot of variables in the amplifier/speaker realm.
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Thanks. Just got done replacing the two output capacitors with 100uf audyn Q4's. I'm measuring resistance on 7 and 9 before going any further and the resistance is maxing out my multimeter. No longer in the 2.9k ohm range. Is this normal or a problem?
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Thanks. Just got done replacing the two output capacitors with 100uf audyn Q4's. I'm measuring resistance on 7 and 9 before going any further and the resistance is maxing out my multimeter. No longer in the 2.9k ohm range. Is this normal or a problem?
Do you have the Speedball installed?
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Yes I do.
I actually went back and redid all the resistance checks listed in the original crack guide and also the speed ball guide. Everything checks fine except 7, and 9 are over limit.
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Well, you take out the 2.9K resistors that attach to 7 and 9 when you install the Speedball.
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Ah, thats right. Thank you.
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Hey everyone, I'm sure this has been covered before somewhere, but I've done a bit of searching and can't find a super definitive answer.
I was wondering if it's okay to upgrade to output caps with a microfarad rating a little below 100 like these:
https://solen.ca/products/capacitors/fast-capacitors-250v-pa-series-metallized-polypropylene/pa9100/
Or if I should really use the other with a 100uf rating minimum.
Honestly I'd like to use the 91uf 250v Axon true caps but partsconnexion's selection stops at 43uf. https://www.partsconnexion.com/axon-true-cap-film-capacitors.html
I'm going to contact them tomorrow to see if they can get higher values ordered and if not then I'll probably just stick with the solens. I've pretty much come to conclusion that everything around this price range is going to offer similar performance (Audyn, Solen, Dayton, Erse PulseX, Jantzen, etc) so I'm more focused on price/value and physical size/ease of install.
Thanks
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Bump.
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Give it a shot and let us know how you like it!
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Whoop! Will do. FYI, according to partsconnexion, Axon is no more. So I'm going with the 91uf Solens straight from CA.
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I noticed this picture in a different thread as a way to mount the capacitors:
https://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6030.0;attach=5468;image
Is this safe to do? It looks like a hole was punched in the plate, and a screw was inserted then locked in place with a nut. It was then used to solder the caps to directly and wired where necessary.
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Is this safe to do? It looks like a hole was punched in the plate, and a screw was inserted then locked in place with a nut. It was then used to solder the caps to directly and wired where necessary.
That's an insulated turret. Here's an example:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Keystone-Electronics/11511?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsg%252Bek5lc7F5m87vzA%252BVXoK (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Keystone-Electronics/11511?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsg%252Bek5lc7F5m87vzA%252BVXoK)
This is a very, very good way to mount big capacitors, but that's $25 worth of parts to serve that purpose.
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Very interesting! Cost is definitely a factor. I still haven't picked up any upgrade caps but someone mentioned automotive Velcro as it has a much higher temperature rating. Can be found on Amazon. I figured I would start there.
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That's an insulated turret. Here's an example:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Keystone-Electronics/11511?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsg%252Bek5lc7F5m87vzA%252BVXoK (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Keystone-Electronics/11511?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsg%252Bek5lc7F5m87vzA%252BVXoK)
This is a very, very good way to mount big capacitors, but that's $25 worth of parts to serve that purpose.
Thank you!
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This was a great thread and I learned a lot about upgrading the crack! I was wondering if I were using Sennheiser hd800 headphones, or similar 300+ resistance headphones, what would be the lowest uf I could get away with replacing the output caps? I would of course like to avoid noticeable roll of in audible sound. I was looking at a chart that made it seem that 33uf would be ok, and that would open up my options in cap choices quite a bit. Stick with higher uf around the 100 mark, or....?
Thank you!
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I would of course like to avoid noticeable roll of in audible sound.
If we assume the HD-800 is a 300 ohm headphone, then I'd stick with 100uF, but the HD-800 is not a resistive device. The HD-800 is ~450 ohms at 20Hz, which would lead me to recommend ~70uF.
If you don't care about 20Hz response but 30Hz is OK, then you could go down around 60uF.
IMO, 33uF is too small. You can certainly buy a selection of Dayton film caps in 33uF, 47uF, 68uF, and 100uF values, then do some listening tests.
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These 82uf popped up on eBay recently, might be of interest. Seller has a whole range of oddball cap sizes which might suit some for speaker crossovers.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333019020505 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333019020505)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332828562969 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332828562969)
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Thanks! I like the look of the clarity caps. I actually am going to try some Russian KZK 100uf white line caps. I might have to get creative to get them to fit, but luckily I live next door to a woodworker so I can recruit him if I need more space. They're not as large as many of the Mundorfs, however.
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Does anyone have a recommendation of some 470uf caps to replace the first couple PS caps? I've been seeing quite a few 'nichicon' but not a lot else, and i'm looking for something not too expensive that would still be an upgrade.
I was thinking of changing out the first two 220uf PS caps with 470 caps, and then using a film cap for the last PS (I have a choke installed so I could get away with lower uf).
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This is a higher capacitance version of what we put in the kits:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UCY2E331MHD9?qs=Ajmft%252BTTukE5XdvmYQQqPw%3D%3D (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UCY2E331MHD9?qs=Ajmft%252BTTukE5XdvmYQQqPw%3D%3D)
We use about the nicest Nichicon caps we can.
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Thanks Paul!
Would there be any benefit/loss of going with these instead? They look to be the same type but at 470uf: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UPW2E471MRD?qs=sGAEpiMZZMukHu%252BjC5l7YVWxZN7wNrp482P3JGA0oTI%3D
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They don't carry a lifetime rating that is as long as what we provide, so technically I would consider them a downgrade. They will still live a long life in a Crack though.
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So a couple months later the kzk 100uf 250v caps have arrived! (Thanks, russia post, for your incredibly slow shipping!)
I was wondering if there was ever a consensus on the orientation of them? For example, the input connected to which terminal, or if it really just doesnt matter which way they're facing?
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I think the general rule of thumb is connect the cap's "outer foil" to the lowest impedance node. So, for example, since these are output caps and the Crack has (IIRC) an output impedance of approx. 120 ohms and is intended for headphones with 200+ ohms impedance, the headphone jack is the highest impedance node and would connect to the "inner foil", and the "outer foil" would connect to the cathode of the 6080.
But all of this assumes that the cap is marked (correctly) -- e.g., with a line indicating outer foil.
Apparently, you can attempt to determine which side is the outer foil using a scope. I've never tried this, but it is described here: http://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/where-to-connect-the-outside-foil-on-capacitors (http://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/where-to-connect-the-outside-foil-on-capacitors)
cheers, Derek
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Good discussion on caps :)