Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Tode => Topic started by: Doc B. on March 27, 2012, 10:31:28 AM
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I've been taking the Tode home every night to play around with and refine. We had a small issue with oscillation, that was easily remedied with a bit of extra shielding on the input wiring. I also removed a bass control we had initially incorporated, that didn't seem to be functional. In its place is a very functional adjustable brake. Last night I was playing with the input volume control maxed out and the brake turned on hard, such that I could play with max distortion into a pair of headphones at quite gentle listening levels. So one can crank up the volume and turn off the brake and rock out, brake the amp for a distorted sound at quiet practice levels, and also vary the brake to allow a wide range of clean to distorted sound over headphones.
Tode now also has a reinforced cabinet and a carry handle.
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What does the term "brake" mean? Is it a master volume, power scaling or something else?
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A brake is simply an L-pad attenuator on the speaker, that allows you to crank the amp to distortion and then cut the signal level going to the speaker, so you can play an overdriven or distorted output stage at low volume levels. This being a very simple two stage direct coupled amp there are only a few ways and places where one can control levels - with a pot at the input, at the cathode of the EL84 (with a variable resistor in series the cathode bypass cap to adjust the gain), or with an adjustable L-pad brake at the output.
I think we're about 90% of the way there. There is a slight issue of what seems to be blocking distortion on the low strings that seems to be related to the very high impedance of the grid leak at the cap input first stage. The issue is a slight case of "farting out", the transition into distortion is not as gradual as it should be it, sort of cuts in and out at times when you are right at the threshold due to the waveform at the grid being pushed down into cutoff and taking some time to recover to the correct bias point. The issue shows itself with higher output humbuckers. Single coils like the sweet Teisco gold foil on my Tele and stock single coils seem to work very well. We're going to analyze this over the next day or two and figure out a way to minimize it - besides "stop using humbuckers" ;^)>.
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Is the Tode something you are planning to release soon? How complete of a kit is planned?
Thanks,
Chris
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Yes, I want to release it as soon as we work out the last details. It will be as complete as the rest of our amp kits - cabinet, circuit components, tubes, etc. and it will include the speaker.
You'll have to supply your own guitar though...I just bought a Squire Mini Strat on ebay to see if the short scale neck works for my teeny hands. I try to stretch my pinky to the 6th fret on the 335 with my index finger on the 2nd fret and I come up about 1/4" short!
Don't know pricing yet, I need some quotes for panels and speakers before I can determine that.
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Doc, any chance of adding in a headphone jack for private practicing? I'd think the arrangement with series resistors, as in the SEX amp, would be fine, and with the brake you speak of, it sounds like distortion could still be attained without having to crank the headphones up very loudly. Am I correct?
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No chance of my adding one - because I already put one in there ;^)> There is also an external speaker jack on the back (drives a 12" Eminence Legend 1218 pretty nicely). Plugging into either jack cuts out the internal 8" Weber driver. With the brake you don't even need the series resistors, it can be set to very safe headphone levels with the existing controls even when distorting. Works very nicely.
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You'll have to supply your own guitar though...I just bought a Squire Mini Strat on ebay to see if the short scale neck works for my teeny hands. I try to stretch my pinky to the 6th fret on the 335 with my index finger on the 2nd fret and I come up about 1/4" short!
Another option may be to try a Godin electric nylon hybrid (they do not sound bad at all on a non-accoustic amp.) They also have wider necks, but they are not as wide as a typical classical nylon. Taylor also makes a nice nylon hybrid, but it does not have MIDI capabilities like the Godin or Carvin models. I used to put my Taylor through some effects pedals and play it through a Suprema 55 with no problems (the more fuzz, the better and less quack.) I think that Carvin may even offer some electrics with hybrid necks, and from I have heard they are pretty decent guitars.
I just traded my Gibson Advanced Jumbo and my Taylor NS-32 nylon. The Gibson body was too wide for my jacked-up shoulder and so I did very little flattop playing. In trade I got a brand new Martin 000-28EC (Eric Clapton model.) I gave the guy the two guitars and $200 and walked out of the store with a great axe. Wow! What a beauty and what a sound, and it so easy to play with the v-neck and short scale. For me the v-neck is the greatest guitar improvement I have come upon in years. It just makes playing so much easier and I also have somewhat short fingers.
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No chance of my adding one - because I already put one in there ;^)> There is also an external speaker jack on the back (drives a 12" Eminence Legend 1218 pretty nicely). Plugging into either jack cuts out the internal 8" Weber driver. With the brake you don't even need the series resistors, it can be set to very safe headphone levels with the existing controls even when distorting. Works very nicely.
Rock on! Woe to my wallet, however - now that I have this AND the Stereomour on my 2012 "to-build" list!
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The Mini Strat has a really short scale - 22.7". It ain't never gonna sound like that sweet 335, but it should be a fun project for $39. The demos of Mini Strats on you tube sound like ass, but it sounds like it's probably because of really cheapo p'ups. I'll put something better in if they turn out to be a problem. Sheeyeah, as if I play good enough that it would matter.
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This is an initial implementation, admittedly a bit crude, of an idea I had for a pilot light. The speaker baffle will be changing to something more interesting in the next iteration.(http://)
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That light is going to look bad-ass behind the new grill, based on the sneak-peek I saw.
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Yeah, I think so too. When the amp is sitting in a dark room it looks like the speaker cone is glowing and just about to burst into flame. That and the new grill should really give the little box some personality. I was bit concerned at first that people won't like the shallow depth of the cabinet because it's non-traditional. After taking it back and forth from home to work every night for the past week or two I have really grown to like fact that it's a lot like carrying a briefcase. We mounted the iron in as low in the box as possible and that makes it pretty resistant to tipping over.
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Very cool Doc. Looks like you could put some fender type legs on either side of the cabinet to tilt it back a bit. As far as guitars go, if you really want to go whole hog, look for an early sixties Fender Duo-Sonic, short scale and killer tone!
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I started by looking at vintage Duo Sonics. But they seem to have achieved collectable status, so I figured first I should just get something inexpensive to see if the short scale even works for me. If it does, there might just be a Duo Sonic in the future. One cool thing about this little amp is that it has got me inspired to go downstairs and practice every night for a bit. I had been struggling for motivation for a few months and this project seems to be the solution.
Clark has mentioned some interest in the guitar amp project and we talked about some sort of legs or bottom panel or maybe even a stand, for the amp cabinet. Once we have the amp itself finished and know that it will sell we can start to address a long list of potential upgrades and accessories.
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What about moving the controls, transformers, etc to the bottom. Then you wouldn't have to worry about it being top heavy. That is the way my Trace Elliot Velocette is configured.
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Actually the stuff at the top behind the controls is very light. The transformers are at the bottom. Those and the speaker magnet are the heavy bits. So I think we have their location pretty well optimized, and the cabinet is really pretty stable as is.
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It definitely has a retro look to it. Looks like something Buck Rogers would play...pretty cool. Personally, I would be afraid of controls on the bottom--tend to get kicked, plus bending over so low is bad on some of our backs.
Yikes, that mini Strat is a short scale. What is the width of the nut? I got my daughter a 3/4 scale guitar and it is great for her, but my short fat fingers can't play it.
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Since I don't own an electric guitar I probably won't be on the list of buyers, but... I love the pilot light. And I worry about getting the tubes out. I suppose it won't be as hard as it seems to me.
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Nut width on the Mini is supposed to be 1.61", about like a Tele. But the fret spacing certainly could end up being too small on the higher frets, we'll see. That's why I was happy to find a used one for a few bucks. If it doesn't work out it just goes back on the bay, or maybe to one of my nieces. After looking at some more you tube demos I'm guessing it might sound kinda lightweight and I'm looking for some better p'ups. Stock ones are something cheapo, like with a single bar magnet. Luckily they are the standard strat size so there are tons of options. If someone has a nice vintage sounding mild wound set of strat pups I'd be willing to do some trading. I think one might even be able to replace the plywood body with a mid-90's MIM Duo Sonic body, or the current CV Duosonic body.
Re the tubes, you have to open up the cab to change them. That's just four screws. The way the tubes are mounted they show a bit and yet they are shielded and well protected. I'm pretty happy with the overall layout and any cabinet changes will probably be focused on the grills and vents.
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I'm curious to see what you come up with for cabinet style. I personally like retro-ish styling like the new Zinky Supro, Epiphone Triggerman or Tone King. I recently built a 2x12 cab that I was thinking of doing something similar but ended up going with a traditional Marshall design. Made it exactly 1/2 of a 4x12 straight cab. Box jointed baltic birch, genuine fir braces, etc.
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The prototype is fairly close to what the kit will be like. It's unconventional with the front and back panels being aluminum, but it follows our ideas of layout, and I think it sounds nice. I like that sort of vintage upholstered Jetsons TV look too. Unfortunately that would cost a lot to make.
It will be fun to see how builders will customize their cabinets. I imagine we'll see everything from bed liner to hand rubbed lacquer.
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I have to admit to a funny (or is it tacky?) vision of the speaker cutout taking on the shape of the Bottlehead man. In all seriousness, though, I actually like the cabinet the way it is presented in the video, and already have some ideas of how I would finish it. The aluminum plate and wooden box setup common to all BH kits might work well here.
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I have to admit to a funny (or is it tacky?) vision of the speaker cutout taking on the shape of the Bottlehead man.
Weeellll, that's actually what I've been working on...not the whole cutout, just a Bottlehead in the middle where the "beam blocker" is. I want to see glowing eyes...
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Ha! That's great. I'm liking this amp already....hope you guys end up releasing it!
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Sent the link to an old guitar player in Portland OR and he likes the looks of it. Maybe a new Bottlehead convert on the horizon.
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For those of you who are coming by Bottleheadquarters for the open house this evening (4-7pm), I'll have the amp set up in my office with a Saga Telecaster kit guitar (seems appropriate). I won't play it - don't want to hurt anyone - but everyone will welcome to give the Tode a test drive, er, hop.
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The Tode was well received by a couple of guitar players at our open house a week ago. In the past week I worked out the blocking distortion issue. It was simply a miswire. Once that was sorted I adjusted the global feedback a little to get the amp to go into overdrive at a bit lower signal level. Works better than ever now. I have an inexpensive single ended 12AX7/6L6 combo amp with an 8" driver I bought on ebay to get a feel for what is out there. In comparison the Tode does a much better job of delivering the player's articulation without getting dull or muddy, and the gain is enough higher that it is easier to go back and forth from clean to overdrive as you play. I really like the Weber ceramic magnet driver I chose too. Thought it would be a good idea to try other speakers that will fit in the shallow cabinet, so I have ordered a Jensen Mod8 to try as well. Since the circuit is reminiscent of some British amps and the Mod8 is supposed to have some British speaker character it might be a nice combination. I hope to see a sample of the production version of the output transformer later this week.
By the way, the Mini Strat I got last week sounds surprisingly good and the short scale is indeed much easier for my short, unskilled fingers. I've been watching videos of great guitar players who are known to have small hands. It's very interesting to watch their playing style.
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Damn it Doc, will you quit teasing us and just release this thing! ;-) I mean, my credit card is vibrating.
Glad to hear the Mini Strat is working out for you. I checked out the Duo Sonics on eBay after I recommended you look at those and was surprised how much their value has risen over the past couple of years. Since no "real" person can afford a vintage Tele or Strat it's no wonder the Duo's are appreciating.
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Believe me I am really trying to fast track this thing! I feel fairly confident that the next proto will be the final and we can go ahead. I know I keep saying this, but it's a rather unconventional design and I need to make sure I don't inadvertently screw the pooch through rushing it too much.
The next version might have a single level control and a bass control as well as treble...
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Just pushing your buttons Doc! I'm amazed at how fast you went from the idea to a working prototype. As you've said, this isn't your average champ clone which is why we guitar slingers are salivating over the Tode. Forward into the past!
Doug
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Doc, this sounds like it's going to be amazing! How different would a design for bass guitar be? Is that a totally different beast?
- Rich
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Actually a bass guitar amp is a lot closer to a hi fi amp. Bass players need to get a lot of clean power. Might be one in the future, if I get inspired?
Meantime lots of fun stuff has been happening. The controls are now the brake, which is more or less the master volume (other volume control is at the guitar); feedback, which inserts a 50K variable resistor into the feedback loop to lessen or remove the feedback for greater distortion and gain; and the third control is now a variable resistor in series with the output tube cathode bypass cap. There is a small cap bypassing this that preserves the high treble. Rolling this pot on gives about a 15dB max scoop that curves from about 200Hz to maybe 4kHz. Then you can roll off the top end with the tone control on your guitar if you wish.
Another way big improvement that happened Sunday was that I changed to the Jensen Mod8 speaker. Very nice speaker, much better bass in this box and a wee bit of mid scoop that helps to give a better balanced sound from a twee little speaker. The Weber I started with is nice too, but this Jensen happens to work better in this app. In fact it now sounds pretty close tonally to the 12" Eminence Legend I have been comparing to. The Weber may end up in an Electar 10 I bought when I started to investigate what's out there in inexpensive tube combo amps. The stock speaker in that Electar is mud!
Along with all this the little Mini Strat I bought is getting turned into a real guitar. I bought some Alnico V, slightly overwound Strat pickups on ebay. The seller sells the set for a ridiculously cheap $32, figured I couldn't lose trying them. Completely transformed the little axe, really Stratty now with a twangy bridge, quacking 2nd position and a nice big toned neck sound. Some Thomastik Blues Sliders in a custom even tension 11-48 set I put together are on there, a nice old .022 oil cap I had went into the tone control, a Yamaha 5 way switch replaced the 3 way it came with. Have a bone nut and some steel saddles coming along with some string thru bushings. I think that for about $150 I'm going to end up with a really neat little guitar that's fairly easy for me little fingers to stretch on. This whole new rig has me inspired and I've been practicing about 1/2 an hour to an hour every night. Maybe I'll be able to make it through a whole song some day after all! Think I'll try the 335 on the amp tonite. With a couple of guitars I really dig playing around with, might be it's time to sell my Teles...
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Wow Doc, I am getting itchy now to see what the kit looks like.
My son has one of the small strats and they are fun.
Like everyone else I am going to throw in my two cents and I fully trust you to do what is best
(although if the ideas are worthwhile, please run with them)
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I would love an amp that has no box and the kit is the amp and sheet metal, possible option?
I can cut the wood box or put it in another amp box and mess with speakers, etc.
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I see some small simple 2-3 tube SE guitar amps out there that allow tube rolling (emorysound?)
that can use multiple power and rectifier combos, and even allow rolling of the 12A*7's.
I would guess many tube geeks would love to roll their own to the maximum allowed.
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thanks for your time. Keep on the studio/home SE simple guitar theme, I can build it and i don't plan on
playing the paramount any time soon, but want something cool.
looks great.
Tim
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More good progress this week. We did do a bit of backpedaling, a pretty standard part of the design process. After using the Jensen speaker for a while I found myself wishing for a little more top end, as it didn't seem to show off how responsive this little amp is. Went back to the Weber speaker and I liked the open treble, but felt once again that the crunch came in a little too abruptly. I have ordered a Weber with a different cone that, based upon the description, should be somewhere in between the other two speakers. Fingers crossed...
We are also trying a bit different approach to the mid scoop control, implementing a notch filter at the input. It will be adjusted with a switch to more or less emulate a Fender style mid scoop, a Marshall style one, and the third setting will be a defeat, no scoop at all.
We have refined the front panel design and it is out for quotes. We have tested the new output transformer and it has hit the spec very well, easily in same ballpark as a Champ output transformer in terms of inductance, and able to take a lot of current.
Today we are working up the layout for the next prototype and sourcing a few parts.
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Actually a bass guitar amp is a lot closer to a hi fi amp. Bass players need to get a lot of clean power. Might be one in the future, if I get inspired?
That would be very nice. There's not that many dedicated bass guitar amplifier kits out there.
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Thanks for the update Doc. I can't wait to see the next prototype and I like the sound of the mid scoop control. Is the brake still in the plan?
Pfenning
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I think you guys will enjoy the new speaker grill. The 2" round part in the center, that the face is cut into, helps to reduce beaming. If we hit our numbers the kit should come out at around $599. That compares pretty favorably to what I perceive to be competitive amp kits.
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I like the tube, but I might have to cover up the face. Its sort of creeping me out.
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I like the tube, but I might have to cover up the face. Its sort of creeping me out.
I guess you probably won't like the evil clown version either.
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I like it, he's like the genie in the bottle. It's kind of hypnotic if you stare into his eyes!
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Kind of looks like the man in the moon...
"There is an inn, a merry old inn
beneath an old grey hill,
And there they brew a beer so brown
That the Man in the Moon himself came down
one night to drink his fill...."
(J.R.R. Tolkein)
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I can't tell from the picture, but can the tubes be wiggled out without taking the front plate off?
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You have to open the cabinet to change tubes. The rear panel has also been designed to be open enough for the speaker to breath, but with small enough openings to keep small and large fingers away from the live terminals. The panels sandwich the wood frame between them. There are standoffs on the back of the front panel that have threaded ends that protrude through the back panel. They are clamped together with four wing nuts, so it will be easy to get inside to do mods, but it will also be rugged enough to pick up by the handle and haul around in your car trunk. The frame is reinforced with internal corner brackets. I think this is the most unique cabinet design I've come up with.
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Kind of looks like the man in the moon...
Reminds me of the Honeymooners moon.
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I like the tube, but I might have to cover up the face. Its sort of creeping me out.
I guess you probably won't like the evil clown version either.
The moon face (BTW: super moon was last night) reminds me of the old silent film where the spaceship embeds itself in the face of the moon. Evil clowns + spaceship moons produces only one result: Killer Clowns from Outer space! (A very creepy flick.)
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I got the exact same image, the space ship in the moon's eye.
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Things are moving along nicely. PB is now working with us four days a week, and he has been doing a great job of expediting this project. We should have some prototype panels with the new grill tomorrow and we have worked out what we hope to be a cost effective graphic overlay for the controls. Today a new midscoop circuit that PJ came up with is being installed in the POC protoype. I've had a couple more players by to try out the prototype - among them David Robinson of Positive Feedback Online (quite a good player) - and the response continues to be "put me on the list for one". Color me stoked!
We're shooting for being ready to take pre-orders in the next week or two and we're trying to plan our first order of components, including the cool new air gapped version of the S.E.X. output transformer that PJ cooked up for this kit. It would be great if we could get a head count to see how many we might want to make on the first run.
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Sign me up for the first run!!!! This should be a great project box.
Alonzo
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Mid scoop works as planned! You can switch from flat response to a more or less Marshall-ish mid scoop of about 15dB at about 1kHz, or a more or less Fender-ish mid scoop of about 15dB at about 500Hz. They both sound nice and quite different. We're feeling pretty good about the circuit and controls now and we're seeing just how low we can get the noise floor on this POC prototype.
The third of the three speakers I am considering arrived today, so I will be evaluating that tonight.
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Here's a quick rendering of the front of the Tode with the new grill and the graphic overlay for the controls:
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We did a minor bit of rework of the input circuit this afternoon and the amp is super quiet.
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Woo Hoo! The first raw panel arrived this morning. We will be investigating a couple of different finishes.
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Getting very close! Tried a slightly different Weber speaker with a bit more controlled break up, that really seems to hit the sweet spot with this amp. We are waiting for the graphic overlay for the controls in order to be able to shoot a photo of the functional prototype in the next day or two. Once we have that we will be ready for pre-orders. We are hoping to move quickly on delivering the first run like we did when we released Crack.
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Time for an update:
Getting close!
About 3/4 of the first run is promised. We have most of the parts in stock and the manual is being written. Probably the longest wait will be for the speakers, which we hope to see in a week or so.
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OK, we are very, very close. A few final hardware bits are arriving next week. A minor panic occurred when we couldn't easily locate our tube of choice. Best delivery time I could get was mid-August - !!!!!!! However I think found enough tubes, arriving next Friday, to let us get started shipping.
Thanks to everyone who has ordered for your patience. I'm really excited to get this kit into the hands of some players.
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I am getting very excited about getting a Tode kit! And I will be bugging my UPS guy like crazy until it comes. :)
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Oh man, we are so close to shipping the first kits that I'm starting to grind my teeth! As bad as I sound when I struggle to play,
the amp still sounds good to me. Some boring little details have held things up - as usual. The graphic overlays didn't have the same easy to install setup as the sample we were sent, so we are asking for a corrected redo. One batch of polystyrene caps for the mid scoop control was sent to the wrong address. So we are working on getting that fixed. And there has been a famine on the brand of tube we chose for the front end. But we found a few and the rest will be here in a few weeks.
We are working through all of these niggling details and, if I have my way, the first kits will be shipping by early next week with more to follow when the Russian and Ukrainian postal services decide to pull their ebay lovin' (hating?) thumbs out of their, um, outputs.
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Dan,
It sounds like you are as excited about getting the Tode out into the builders hands as they are about getting it. I would guess it is like wanting to show off your offspring.
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If it's not one thing it's another, but we now have one thing and another covered to ship the first Todes. The first kits should be shipping out Thursday. I think we have about 5 or 6 kits still available from the first production run.
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Woo Hoo! First kits are shipping out today, with more to follow next week. I am as excited about this kit as any we have ever done. We broke a lot of rules and ended up with something that everyone seems to really dig. Thanks to all the crew - PJ, Shawn, PB, Josh and my Queen Bee for pulling so hard on the oars on this one.
Now that we have kits to go around Shawn will be building up a few. I will be sending some samples out to some artists I know. If they give me permission I'll let you know who they are and what their impressions are.
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Since people are going to start getting kits soon, I figure it's time to brush up on guitar playing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZDjWLwqAPY
Adult language is used in this video.
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The teacher is related to ET.
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Well, my son Dylan, 9, has been playing guitar for a little less than a year. His amp is a
Fender blues Jr, about $500. He plays pretty much daily, and I'm looking for any way to
encourage him. I figure building one of these might be a good way. The sound on the
youtube videos is great! I'll let you know which amp he likes better - as I just ordered one.
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Thank you so much for ordering, and for the kind words about the sound of the amp! I think we have about four or five kits left from this first run. After those are gone the price will have to go up to $599.
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Yep the Todes are shipping!
They're just a hop, skip and a jump away from their proud new builder/owners!!!!
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Woo Hoo!!!! I suppose I'll have to clean all the "wreckage" off the workbench, and warm up the soldering iron :) ;D
Has anybody played a 60's vintage Gibson SG through a Tode yet?
Sold my Les Paul and 1965 Jazzmaster a few years ago, got some very good $$$ but, darn! I wish I'd have kept them... :'(
/ed B in NC (Order placed June 13th)
I have previously refered to the Tode over at DIYtube.com
http://www.diytube.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=43955#43955
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Along with the guitars used in the demos others that I've heard include another Strat, a Gretsch White Falcon, a Danelectro (can't remember model), a LP, a couple of Teles, what I think was a Schecter, and that gorgeous guitar by David Myka that he played at the guitar show
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mykaguitars.com%2Finstruments%2F120%2F11.jpg&hash=dbb6d77a382b16cb255d3f466fd180ebeeee7146)
We've really been slamming to get the kits out and there are only three complete amps out there so far. Two of them belong to guys who will use them primarily with acoustic electrics - Mino Christante, who ordered one the day he did the demo for us,
http://www.minochristante.com/index.php/en/ (http://www.minochristante.com/index.php/en/)
and Saith
http://www.saithmusic.com/index.php (http://www.saithmusic.com/index.php)
I can't mention the artist who got the third one until I hear back from them. Shawn should be finishing up #4 today, which I will be try to keep around here for a little while! Anyway, I'm hoping we will see some commentary over the next few weeks as the kits get out there (more shipping this week once we get a couple of back ordered resistors in). I will be putting up more videos done here at BHQ. I think the next one is tentatively scheduled for weekend after next, a player who can really shred on a 7 string and 8 string Ibanez. When I can get one to him Art Khu will do a jazz demo for us (he's been studying with Tuck Andress lately). Hopefully some kit builders will do audio and/or video demos of their own as well.
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God! That is beautiful wood!
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Got my box today!!! I'll be firing up the soldering iron today. I'm thinking about something custom for the cabinet. I'll post pictures.
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Glad to hear the first kits we shipped are showing up. We ran short of one resistor that held up shipping the more recent first run orders but that has arrived and we should be shipping more early next week.