Bottlehead Forum
Bottlehead Kits => Legacy Kit Products => Foreplay III => Topic started by: Doc B. on July 17, 2012, 12:14:59 PM
-
We have been experiencing a new challenge in recent months, that being keeping all of our kits fully stocked to reduce lead times. Yeah, it's always been a challenge, but the expanded number of kits we have come out with is making it even more challenging. The other issue we have come up against is the difficulty of retiring some kits so that we can introduce a replacement. The joke around here is that the plan was to discontinue Seduction so we could introduce a revision about 6 years ago.
What happens is that we get to a point where we have inventory depleted so that we can stop production, but then one or two more people want to order. So then we have to order enough parts to justify the price, and we end up with 25 or 50 or 100 more kits worth of parts.
We have a new 300B based preamp under development that I feel is a very good match to Paramount. And Paramount is now the only kit we sell that actually requires a preamp. The plan had been to retire Foreplay III when we have that kit ready. However we have just hit a point where we have sold out the existing stock of Foreplay III, in the special sale we ran a couple weeks ago. Those kits will be shipping tomorrow, and I have taken advantage of the situation to announce that we have retired the Foreplay III as of today. We will still offer the Extended upgrade kit for those who have not yet upgraded their stock Foreplay III kit, and we hope to have the 300B preamp ready in the next couple of months.
Thanks so much to the hundreds of people who purchased a Foreplay III! We promise the next one will be even better.
-
Keep your eyes out for four guys on horseback, probably wearing black hoods. The apocalypse is near!
-
Nah, we'll just name the new preamp Foreplay IV.
-
"we hope to have the 300B preamp ready in the next couple of months"
Wo hoooooooooo!
I want to order the first one.
-
Oh Man..........
My brother in law was planning to buy a Foreplay III in a week or so to use with his extensively modified Jolida amp. 300B tubes ain't cheap. What price might the new Foreplay IV be?
-
I am eternally grateful for the Foreplay. Its what brought me here and got me into DIY. It was both easy enough to complete so that I could have a quality piece that produced music, and challenging enough so that I knew I had a lot more to learn about audio. RIP.
-
Man, this puts me in a conundrum. I converted my FPIII to 7N7 then stockpiled several lifetime's worth. But how I stop myself from buying the new preamp I don't know.
-
Paully - the answer is - you probably wont be able to stop yourself from buying the 300b preamp. Especially if its an easy buy (not too expensive). That seems to be how the 'audiophile' market has been evolving as of late. It seems to be evolving along the lines of the 'good bang for the buck' taking the lead. No surprise given the economy the way it is. With tube preamps continuing to hover in the '$several thousand' average ballpark a sub $1K diy will be very attractive. IMO, the competition in the one to several thousand range is getting really intense. Wyrd 4 sound hit that segment several years ago when there weren't many players there. It loaded now. Its the Schitt audio's of the world that are now shaking it up again in the 'compete with China' sub $1K price range. Many audiophiles out there now have at least one very nice piece of gear made in China. That changes your expectations. Interesting to see where the hobby will go from here....
-
Ok, so Foreplay 1, 2 & III have been retired. Will the next preamp be a Foreplay IV?
Paully has a stock of 300Bs so he is hoping for a good price on the new preamp.
-
Maybe Bottlehead should take a cue from Apple's latest iteration of the iPad - just call it the "new" Foreplay. Or perhaps aim for double meaning, 4Play.
In any case, looking forward to seeing some prototype shots of the new 300B preamp!
-
Jeez, I take an afternoon off from the forum and THIS happens!
The FPIII will always be a special piece of gear for me: first thing I built, first time I blew up a capacitor (hopefully the last), first time I burned a dining table with a soldering iron (didn't burn myself until I built the Seduction), first time I got tubes in my system, first switched attenuators, first dual volume controls, first time rolling tubes, first time modding, first time drilling a hole into a completed chassis. That little box of parts really changed my life for the better in a lot of ways. My only regret is that I waited so long before I ordered.
There are great potential names for the next generation:
Foreplay III.1,
PiPlate/PiPlay (3.14)
Fourplay
Keeping the Roman Numeral theme:
IVplay (pronounced "foreplay")
Foreplay CCC-B ('cause it's a 300B, see?)
I vote for whatever confuses the most people...
-
The preamp will be somewhat more than $1K. How much I can't say yet. We could probably offer it without tubes for those who have their own to bring it down some. Here's some of what we are thinking as of today and subject to change -
dual mono power supply with either a single large or two smaller power transformers
either 6AQ5 or 6BQ5 active loaded hybrid shunt regulation for each active loaded 300B
regulated filament supply - we are studying a couple different rationales for this
coarse and fine stereo stepped attenuator with 36 1.5dB steps- the prototype is showing great promise to be the best sounding attenuator we have had in our system
improved (over FPIII) signal path wire
possible balanced input and/or output upgrade options
Some of you have heard the prototype 300B preamp vs. Foreplay III and some other prototypes. The rest of you will just have to trust me that this is a clear cut evolutionary step above the FPIII. I feel that it is a particularly good match with the Paramount design, and that is of course the one amp design we currently make that is intended for use with a preamp.
-
I know it's supposed to be a preamp as in preamp but I'm wondering how will it drive a good pair of headphone transformers, or another 300B stage with a coupling transformer a la Sakuma, or maybe this is the ticket to put before the Ionovacs and get rid of the Specos.
OK, I'll build one as a preamp but one can only wonder.
I've never before anticipated a product like this one.
Oh, and I love the IVplay name.
-
Me, a stash of 300B? I wish! But offering it sans tubes doesn't seem to be a bad idea to me. Maybe the option of with or without if that doesn't unnecessarily complicate the ordering system. And it knocks $100 or so off the price for people who already have a few and may help sell more kits. Oh well, time to start saving up.
-
right, with or without tubes could be the way to go. that would help people realize the cost of the tubes, as well as an option for those that have them. We are going to piss our pants either way!
-
Wow, and I was so close... :-)
So, what's this about upgraded signal path wiring? Just curious. ;-)
-- Jim
-
I'll build one.
-
over $1K!
yikes!
I never got the Foreplay 3 because with upgrades it was almost that much. That's why I love my Quickie! Truly one of the best audio bargains out there.
Still, I would like something better if possible. I guess we'll see how things go.
-
Glad I bought the FPIII last year. Really glad actually. Ive got another hobby that isnt exactly cheap and $1K+ preamp wouldnt be in the cards right now, especially one that uses the expensive 300B tubes. I understand the decision, not griping about it. Im sure Bottlehead wouldnt do it if they didnt think the sonics merited the price and the discontinuation of the FP. Just saying that I think the FPIII is a great sounding piece and Im glad I was able to buy and build one before they were retired. Not all of us are in a continuous search for the holy grail. For some of us, very good is more than enough. I havent even added the extended upgrade. Quite happy with the stock FPIII and the system as it is. But I have no doubt that the new 300B pre will be a big hit. And who knows ... maybe the FPIII or a newly designed pre at the FPIII price point will make an appearance down the road due to heavy demand ;D But Im pretty much set. Maybe the etended upgrade down the road, maybe not. I do feel for those who wanted a FPIII but missed out before retirement.
-
looking forward to the 300b preamp. Hopefully we can get it without tubes at a reduced price. I have a few pairs of 300b's at home
Deb
-
Doc,
would the new one work well with the Seduction and SEX?
s
-
Will the attenuators be available as a kit for other projects?
-
Not to be a total d*ck, but are we talking "earth" months for availability? I gave up waiting for the DAC about this time last year...
-
Will the attenuators be available as a kit for other projects?
The Sweetest Whispers used to be on the Parts Page. I don't see them today. But I suspect they are still available.
-
Not to be a total d*ck, but are we talking "earth" months for availability? I gave up waiting for the DAC about this time last year...
Yeah, I understand folks giving up on the DAC. It's been three years now since we initiated the project and I still don't have the functional prototype. It seems it is a goal that is always a little too far for the time and money resources we have on hand. The next month or two we will probably come to the point of s*** or get off the pot, so we will see what happens.
Regarding the 300B preamp, we are at the proof of concept prototype stage. We had another great breakthrough today that seemed to be the main sticking point, and in the process we all agreed that the realism of the presentation stepped up a notch. We plan to start working up a layout next, for the functional prototype. I would liken this development process more to Tode than the DAC in terms of the project calendar. We showed the POC prototype of Tode in March, and they start shipping tomorrow.
-
Wow, I have been waiting a very long time for DAC. I sure hope it makes the cut. If not would you consider selling the digital PCB alone?
We could work out power supply's and output stages as a group project. Might be fun...John
-
Hi:
At the risk of getting ahead of ourselves, I have a question about the 300B preamp. I know that EML mesh-plate 300Bs are generally (or is it it specifically?) NOT recommended for Paramount amps. Putting aside the cost issue, would it be correct to assume that they would work just fine in the 300B preamp? Thanks.
Gerry
-
Actually, the problem occurred with the previous version of Paramount. With the new Paramount soft-start circuit the EML 300B's are fine as it says on the EML site. I assume that the preamp will include the soft-start circuit.
Cheers, Hank
-
Guys,
This has been gone over several times recently -- there never was any problem with the paramounts in 300b configuration and the EML tubes -- it was only in the direct-coupled 2a3 version that the problem would happen, and that is what has been remedied by the soft-start board.
-- Jim
-
Thanks Jim, you beat me to the punch and said it in a less crabby fashion that I was going to. The preamp is a completely different product and there will not be any problem using various 300Bs since they are running at quite low voltage and dissipation.
-
Hi:
At the risk of getting ahead of ourselves, I have a question about the 300B preamp. I know that EML mesh-plate 300Bs are generally (or is it it specifically?) NOT recommended for Paramount amps. Putting aside the cost issue, would it be correct to assume that they would work just fine in the 300B preamp? Thanks.
Gerry
This is a misconception that seems to come up quite often. The issue with EML tubes in the Paramounts was with the original directly coupled 2A3 circuit; this is what the soft start circuit addressed and solved. There was never such an issue with the 300B's, though the de-rated EML mesh 300B might not be the best idea.
-
OK. First let me say that I am less than a novice when it comes to circuit design. But, I'm curious why the new Foreplay IV uses 300B tubes. Why not 2A3 or even 45. I ask this because I have the impression (from reading other reports, not personal experience) that the 45 sounds 'better' than 2A3 which sounds 'better' than the B300. Is there a simple explanation for this? One that even I would understand?
-
The 45 was dropped because the output impedance (same as plate impedance) is 2.5 times higher than a 300B. We did a lot of experimenting with different designs to get the source impedance down and the available current up, and have so far concluded that both make an important difference.
As a preamp, a very quiet filament power supply is needed, and it's both difficult and inefficient to regulate 2.5 amps at 2.5 volts. That discouraged the use of 2A3s. 5 volts at 1.2 amps is, in important ways, four times easier. (This is a problem that I will continue to work on ...) Meanwhile, and pending resolution of the last details of the circuit, I think it can easily be made to work with 6A3s, or (with a socket change) 6B4s.
With bigger changes, a few others may be workable - we haven't yet explored the limits of the design.
-
I suppose the simplest explanation is that 300Bs actually sound better than 2A3s or 45s. ;)
-
This is a misconception that seems to come up quite often. The issue with EML tubes in the Paramounts was with the original directly coupled 2A3 circuit; this is what the soft start circuit addressed and solved. There was never such an issue with the 300B's, though the de-rated EML mesh 300B might not be the best idea.
What added to the confusion was that I had consulted with George from Tubes USA. He's the major EML seller in the U.S.. He specifically recommended that I go with the standard solid-plate EML 300Bs for my Paramounts. Maybe this was just personal preference. My plan now is to get a pair of EML mesh-plates and try them and the solid-plates in both the new preamp and Paramounts to see which way sounds better.
Gerry
-
I would like to reask the question from xcortes. Could this be easily adapted to a headphone amp? Is this in any way related to the semi-retirement of the Smack headphone amp?
-
Well, I guess you can turn anything into something it wasn't originally intended for.
(https://forum.bottlehead.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.collectspace.com%2Freview%2Fspaceshuttlecafe01.jpg&hash=32c3423ba01bde58225ec377b42038120f0c9142)
Output impedance is around 500 ohms. You would need to add output transformers. When you do that the gain drops a bunch. and you lose the advantage of the OTL line level circuit. A better choice for a 300B headphone amp would be Paramounts. They are pretty amazing with AKG K1000s.
We are discussing re-releasing the Smack concept in a somewhat different form.
-
Been a couple of months since the Foreplay III was retired and the talk of the new Foreplay IV, just wondering if the Foreplay IV will be out soon. I have a old '02 Foreplay and was hoping to upgrade this winter to a Foreplay III when it was retired, but now have to look into the Foreplay IV when it comes out, i just have not heard anything on it in a while.
-
Randy,
The new preamp will be called the Bee Pre and there is now a separate board for it -- located just below quickie.
HTH,
Jim